GNR Women's discussion

[Rocketqueen76]

4 minutes ago, killuridols said:

Oh.. yeah. These are the pics I was thinking about when you guys mentioned that.... but can we say his tension is due to Erin or to something else?

This is also a photoshoot, not something spontaneous. Does any of you know which publication were these ones made for?

Who knows what the photographer asked them to pose like

These ones are different because they are spontaneous, not for a photoshoot and seem to be taken with a non-professional camera.

Looks like backstage of SCOM, since she's wearing that white suit there.

----

One of the saddest pics of Axl with Steph

 

Another "weird" one...

 

That really sad one looks like he's saying "Child you're plucking my last good nerve."

[killuridols]

16 minutes ago, Tori72 said:

At the fashion event on the other hand, I find Axl looks relaxed and at ease. And when he looks at Steph or kisses her and has his eyes closed then, his face and body language really go towards her. He totally opens up to her. I don't know about her but I can see she fancies him a lot and probably is in love, too.

http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/license/76342346

http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/event/maybelline-presents-1991-look-of-the-year-75202577?#axl-rose-of-guns-n-roses-and-stephanie-seymour-picture-id76342420

https://de.pinterest.com/pin/35465915793108705/

Most of Axl-Steph kisses, in my perception, denote sexual attraction and lust rather than love and romance.

I don't see what you see in those pics.

I can only see a couple of successful people, the perfect combination for the early 90's (rocker + supermodel), highly publicized romance in a high profile fashion event, MAKING OUT for the photographers and other celebrities around them.

The epitome of frivoulous, shallow and fake that Axl ever was involved in.

 

[Frey]

@Lumikki Yes, these.

And I agree, despite Axl looking awkward, those pics are still a million times better than any with Steph Seymour, because yeah, fake as hell.

Axl does look kind of into Seymour in some pictures, but she always looks bored, distracted, and like she's faking interest or attraction. And the fact that I find her ugly as hell doesn't help either.

Erin all the way for me.

 

8 minutes ago, killuridols said:

I can only see a couple of successful people, the perfect combination for the early 90's (rocker + supermodel), highly publicized romance in a high profile fashion event, MAKING OUT for the photographers and other celebrities around them.

The epitome of frivoulous, shallow and fake that Axl ever was involved in.

Yeah.

And I just remembered, I also meant to ask you about something else while I caught up on the thread: You mentioned the record company keeping Axl from getting treatment for his mental health issues. Can you go into more detail on that? Because I think that would have been a spectacularly dumb move by the record company (and how do they have the power to decide that anyway? If Axl wanted to go see a psychiatrist on his own, surely there would have been nothing they could really have done about it?). A less volatile Axl might have delivered music faster and with less problems, caused less riots, been easier to handle... Granted, you could argue, the volatility and craziness was part of the appeal of GNR, but in financial terms (which is the only thing that would have mattered to the record company), I think getting Axl some (real) help would have benefitted them in the long run.

 

 

 

[Rocketqueen76]

3 minutes ago, Frey said:

@Lumikki Yes, these.

And I agree, despite Axl looking awkward, those pics are still a million times better than any with Steph Seymour, because yeah, fake as hell.

Axl does look kind of into Seymour in some pictures, but she always looks bored, distracted, and like she's faking interest or attraction. And the fact that I find her ugly as hell doesn't help either.

Erin all the way for me.

 

Yeah.

And I just remembered, I also meant to ask you about something else while I caught up on the thread: You mentioned the record company keeping Axl from getting treatment for his mental health issues. Can you go into more detail on that? Because I think that would have been a spectacularly dumb move by the record company (and how do they have the power to decide that anyway? If Axl wanted to go see a psychiatrist on his own, surely there would have been nothing they could really have done about it?). A less volatile Axl might have delivered music faster and with less problems, caused less riots, been easier to handle... Granted, you could argue, the volatility and craziness was part of the appeal of GNR, but in financial terms (which is the only thing that would have mattered to the record company), I think getting Axl some (real) help would have benefitted them in the long run.

 

 

 

@Frey I have a small velvet box with your name on it LOL. The question of the record company purposely keeping Axl mentally off kilter is a very good one indeed. Was it somewhere contractually written that he couldn't seek help? Did they feel that his real pain provided better raw material for songs and music composition?

Maybe they tried and he refused? Whatever the case, I am very curious about the answers.

[killuridols]

23 minutes ago, Frey said:

And I agree, despite Axl looking awkward, those pics are still a million times better than any with Steph Seymour, because yeah, fake as hell.

Axl does look kind of into Seymour in some pictures, but she always looks bored, distracted, and like she's faking interest or attraction. And the fact that I find her ugly as hell doesn't help either.

Erin all the way for me.

Axl looks more into Stephanie because he's got a boner there

I can feel his lust all over and she's mostly like meh, because guys drooling over her must have been a daily occurrence to her

 

23 minutes ago, Frey said:

And I just remembered, I also meant to ask you about something else while I caught up on the thread: You mentioned the record company keeping Axl from getting treatment for his mental health issues. Can you go into more detail on that? Because I think that would have been a spectacularly dumb move by the record company (and how do they have the power to decide that anyway? If Axl wanted to go see a psychiatrist on his own, surely there would have been nothing they could really have done about it?). A less volatile Axl might have delivered music faster and with less problems, caused less riots, been easier to handle... Granted, you could argue, the volatility and craziness was part of the appeal of GNR, but in financial terms (which is the only thing that would have mattered to the record company), I think getting Axl some (real) help would have benefitted them in the long run.

What Axl needed back then was institutionalization, rather than therapy. His case was really bad.
Having him locked up would have not been a good move because they needed him active and working. It was a time to be making money, shows, albums, videos.
The other guys were all into drugs and shit but they never failed a show.

Axl didn't believe in psychiatrist and pills and mental institutions so I don't think he wanted that either. He went the "psychics" way, charlatans, people who would cure his soul "magically".

Record company was about to change, remember what Axl said in the China Exchange conference. David Geffen knew he was going to sell it and the future of GN'R was already doomed after they finished the tour.

Quote

It's just to- because of the success of Appetite and like we were talking in the car, I mean after Appetite David Geffen was, to me,  more concerned in selling the company rather than helping things get back in line to what we signed the contract to make an album. 

What could have benefitted them more, like Axl said, was creating their own record company and have a platform of their own to release whatever they wanted.

Instead, they had to release TSI just to not break a deal and once that was done, the rest is history.

 

Edited December 13, 2016 by killuridols

[Rocketqueen76]

7 minutes ago, killuridols said:

Axl looks more into Stephanie because he's got a boner there

I can feel his lust all over and she's mostly like meh, because guys drooling over her must have been a daily occurrence to her

 

What Axl needed back then was institutionalization, rather than therapy. His case was really bad.
Having him locked up would have not been a good move because they needed him active and working. It was a time to be making money, shows, albums, videos.
The other guys were all into drugs and shit but they never failed a show.

Axl didn't believe in psychiatrist and pills and mental institutions so I don't think he wanted that either. He went the "psychics" way, charlatans, people who would cure his soul "magically".

Record company was about to change, remember what Axl said in the China Exchange conference. David Geffen knew he was going to sell it and the future of GN'R was already doomed after they finished the tour.

What could have benefitted them more, like Axl said, was creating their own record company and have a platform of their own to release whatever they wanted.

Instead, they had to release TSI just to not break a deal and once that was done, the rest is history.

 

This actually makes perfect sense. 

[nonok]

Uh...first of all, not every picture in the universe comes out perfect and tabloid-ready, especially with awkward people like Axl (in the sense that he didn't have a very good idea how to express affection, both physically and emotionally), and every celebrity/model photoshoot produces thousands of pictures, of which they publish only the best.

Secondly, making extreme conclusions like "he was only in love with Erin", "he and Stephanie just lusted after each other" or "he didn't look comfortable around Erin" are pointless. He was in love with both of them (TIL, Sweet Child, the DTJ dedications, the lawsuits, etc.), we have no idea who he loved more (probably Erin, but again, we just don't know because we can't read his thoughts).
As for reciprocation, well, Erin truly loved him, while Stephanie probably only wanted his money and his...

 

Edited December 13, 2016 by nonok

[Blackstar]

From Mick Wall's book:

Spoiler

Inevitably, it was left to Doug Goldstein to try and fix things. ‘I had to drive up there to kind of clean up that mess. Not literally, but emotionally. Because he was distraught and down and … I loved the guy to death so I wanted to be there for him.’ Trying to put Axl back together again after a major meltdown had become a regular practice, says Goldstein. ‘It wasn’t something that only transpired through that two-year period.’ In the end, he says, ‘I was making those trips for seventeen years. He could go a week long, where I’d talk to him and he’d be in tears. I could never really figure out the derivation. I would just try to be here for him … Clearly the relationship stuff with Stephanie really got to him. I mean, really got to him. He loved her to death …’

And (Beta has told this story too):

Axl and Stephanie had had bad fallings out before, but they had always made up again. Goldstein recalls after one bad break Axl phoning him and asking: ‘“ Do you know anybody with a white horse?” They had split and he was trying to win her back. I said, “Let me see what I can do.”’ Goldstein, who prided himself on always being able to come up with whatever bizarre requests his boss made, made the arrangements and the next day a trailer containing a white Arabian charger showed up outside Stephanie’s Hollywood home.

‘Axl gets on the horse and pulls up to the front door, and I knock on the door and go hide in the bushes.’ Next thing, ‘He’s on the horse apologising to her and, you know what, honest to god, it was one of the cutest things I’d ever seen. I’m hiding in the bushes watching this guy. I mean, he’s pouring his heart and soul out. He’s never been on a horse in his fucking life! And the horse is moving back and forth and he has no idea how to control it. It was just adorable. What we do for love …’

I think we can't argue whether Axl loved Erin or Stephanie more (or if he really loved any of them) judging from his pictures with them (I agree though that there's a big difference between Erin's and Steph's body language; Stephanie looks always cold and distant). From what we know, with Erin it was a deep (at least on Erin's part) and also very tense and volatile relationship which more than a few times became abusive. With Stephanie it seems that Axl (for reasons only he knows) thought he could have a healthy relationship and have a family. And although there were tensions (e.g. about the Warren Beatty story) and splits, if I'm not mistaken there weren't any incidents of physical abuse/violence other than the one the lawsuit was about; it seems that Axl really tried (within the limitation of his issues which he was also trying to deal with at that time) for that relationship to work. Maybe it was his need for a healthy relationship that made him idealize Stephanie and this is why their split cost him so much. But we really don't know...

-------

It makes sense that the label only cared to make as much money as they could from GnR and it wanted them to be there to record and perform; it's all business. They just wanted Axl to do whatever could keep him performing whether it was lithium pills or regression therapy.

 

Edited December 13, 2016 by Blackstar

[Tori72]

Oh, I wasn't saying at all that Axl wouldn't love Erin or whatever. I pointed out that his awkwardness around in fotos with Erin irritate me. I can see his being in love in fotos with Steph more. I not only see lust but affection in the fotos with Steph, even though I agree there are some awkawrd ones too.

14 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

 it seems that Axl really tried (within the limitation of his issues) for that relationship to work. Maybe it was his need for a healthy relationship that made him idealize Stephanie and this is why their split cost him so much. But we really don't know...

 

Agree there.

[Italian girl]

I really Liked them...

 

[Scream of the Butterfly]

To me Axl looks happy and in love with both Erin and Stephanie, depending on which picture or video you are looking at of course.

I don't like Stephanie but even so I don't find it obvious that she was totally fake and never loved him at all even when they were together. Is it possible that people think that just because they don't like her and therefore don't want to think she was ever capable of loving Axl?

[killuridols]

1 hour ago, nonok said:

Uh...first of all, not every picture in the universe comes out perfect and tabloid-ready, especially with awkward people like Axl (in the sense that he didn't have a very good idea how to express affection, both physically and emotionally), and every celebrity/model photoshoot produces thousands of pictures, of which they publish only the best.

Secondly, making extreme conclusions like "he was only in love with Erin", "he and Stephanie just lusted after each other" or "he didn't look comfortable around Erin" are pointless. He was in love with both of them (TIL, Sweet Child, the DTJ dedications, the lawsuits, etc.), we have no idea who he loved more (probably Erin, but again, we just don't know because we can't read his thoughts).
As for reciprocation, well, Erin truly loved him, while Stephanie probably only wanted his money and his...

 

OMG you made me laugh with your conclusion and that pic

But hey, I don't think we were trying to be categoric here about anything.... We were just sharing opinions on what some pics looked like to us and they are all subjective interpretations, of course.

As you can see, some people here see happiness and love in Axl/Erin pics while others see tension, clumsiness and pain.

Same goes with the Axl/Steph pics.

Of course, we will never know the real feelings of Axl for Erin, Stephanie and from them towards him but we're just speculating and trying to read expressions.

None of it was decisive.

 

58 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

From Mick Wall's book:

  Reveal hidden contents

Inevitably, it was left to Doug Goldstein to try and fix things. ‘I had to drive up there to kind of clean up that mess. Not literally, but emotionally. Because he was distraught and down and … I loved the guy to death so I wanted to be there for him.’ Trying to put Axl back together again after a major meltdown had become a regular practice, says Goldstein. ‘It wasn’t something that only transpired through that two-year period.’ In the end, he says, ‘I was making those trips for seventeen years. He could go a week long, where I’d talk to him and he’d be in tears. I could never really figure out the derivation. I would just try to be here for him … Clearly the relationship stuff with Stephanie really got to him. I mean, really got to him. He loved her to death …’

And (Beta has told this story too):

Axl and Stephanie had had bad fallings out before, but they had always made up again. Goldstein recalls after one bad break Axl phoning him and asking: ‘“ Do you know anybody with a white horse?” They had split and he was trying to win her back. I said, “Let me see what I can do.”’ Goldstein, who prided himself on always being able to come up with whatever bizarre requests his boss made, made the arrangements and the next day a trailer containing a white Arabian charger showed up outside Stephanie’s Hollywood home.

‘Axl gets on the horse and pulls up to the front door, and I knock on the door and go hide in the bushes.’ Next thing, ‘He’s on the horse apologising to her and, you know what, honest to god, it was one of the cutest things I’d ever seen. I’m hiding in the bushes watching this guy. I mean, he’s pouring his heart and soul out. He’s never been on a horse in his fucking life! And the horse is moving back and forth and he has no idea how to control it. It was just adorable. What we do for love …’

-------

I think we can't argue whether Axl loved Erin or Stephanie more (or if he really loved any of them) judging from his pictures with them (I agree though that there's a big difference between Erin's and Steph's body language; Stephanie looks always cold and distant). From what we know, with Erin it was a very tense and volatile relationship which more than a few times became abusive. With Stephanie it seems that Axl (for reasons only he knows) thought he could have a healthy relationship and have a family. And although there were tensions (e.g. about the Warren Beatty story) and splits, if I'm not mistaken there weren't any incidents of physical abuse/violence other than the one the lawsuit was about; it seems that Axl really tried (within the limitation of his issues) for that relationship to work. Maybe it was his need for a healthy relationship that made him idealize Stephanie and this is why their split cost him so much. But we really don't know...

When Axl tried to go back with Erin (after Steph), she said he sent her flowers, letters and caged birds. Caged birds?
Also couple dogs (because she loves dogs) and invitations to his shows.
History also says that Axl told Erin he would kill himself if she did not marry him.

Probably, the story of Axl threatening Erin with a gun is much less glamorous than Axl riding a white horse to apologize to another woman, and in the general public mind, this story sticks more because it's not violent and it sounds like taken from a fairy tale.

However, if one can get rid of all the sugarcoating (especially Goldstein's liters of drool ), it is easy to find a pattern in all of these odd behavior: Axl thinking that in order to gain a woman's love he had to do extraordinary things, out of this world things, either terrifying or adorable, and that he was entitled to pardon or marriage because what he did for them no other guy would dare.

Call me bitter or whatever, but the tale of Axl in a white horse apologizing to Stephanie I can't find it "adorable" nor "cute" or even think of it as "what we do for love...". All I can think of it, as well as him threatening Erin to marry him, is that the guy was fucking CLUELESS about what love is about, relationships are about and that none of his extraordinaire acts of "Love" were worth a crap because in the end, all he did was scare those women away.

What Erin and Stephanie needed were not white horses and caged birds, but a guy who would treat them WELL, like decent persons, like human beings, not things he could buy with money and extravagant bullshit.

I know we have argued about this before here and its not my intention to be a jackass again, lol, but well... as you know, I dont consider "love" any of this. Love is not about being a fucking jerk to your woman and then trying to fix it with money and bullshit. Same goes the other way around, of course, it is not exclusive of men being an asshole.

I also feel that the rethoric used when telling these stories (either by Goldstein or Beta) is to put a veil of pity over Axl, to excuse him for his mistreatment of women and make Stephanie look like she was an insensitive bitch who, despite of Axl's huge displays of love, didn't give a fuck and didn't stick around as she was supposed to do. How can you not love a guy who takes a ship to the moon and grabs a star for you?

That kind of reasoning makes my blood boil.

Edited December 13, 2016 by killuridols

[Rocketqueen76]

23 minutes ago, killuridols said:

OMG you made me laugh with your conclusion and that pic

But hey, I don't think we were trying to be categoric here about anything.... We were just sharing opinions on what some pics looked like to us and they are all subjective interpretations, of course.

As you can see, some people here see happiness and love in Axl/Erin pics while others see tension, clumsiness and pain.

Same goes with the Axl/Steph pics.

Of course, we will never know the real feelings of Axl for Erin, Stephanie and from them towards him but we're just speculating and trying to read expressions.

None of it was decisive.

 

When Axl tried to go back with Erin (after Steph), she said he sent her flowers, letters and caged birds. Caged birds?
Also couple dogs (because she loves dogs) and invitations to his shows.
History also says that Axl told Erin he would kill himself if she did not marry him.

Probably, the story of Axl threatening Erin with a gun is much less glamorous than Axl riding a white horse to apologize to another woman, and in the general public mind, this story sticks more because it's not violent and it sounds like taken from a fairy tale.

However, if one can get rid of all the sugarcoating (especially Goldstein's liters of drool ), it is easy to find a pattern in all of these odd behavior: Axl thinking that in order to gain a woman's love he had to do extraordinary things, out of this world things, either terrifying or adorable, and that he was entitled to pardon or marriage because what he did for them no other guy would dare.

Call me bitter or whatever, but the tale of Axl in a white horse apologizing to Stephanie I can't find it "adorable" nor "cute" or even think of it as "what we do for love...". All I can think of it, as well as him threatening Erin to marry him, is that the guy was fucking CLUELESS about what love is about, relationships are about and that none of his extraordinaire acts of "Love" were worth a crap because in the end, all he did was scare those women away.

What Erin and Stephanie needed were not white horses and caged birds, but a guy who would treat them WELL, like decent persons, like human beings, not things he could buy with money and extravagant bullshit.

I know we have argued about this before here and its not my intention to be a jackass again, lol, but well... as you know, I dont consider "love" any of this. Love is not about being a fucking jerk to your woman and then trying to fix it with money and bullshit. Same goes the other way around, of course, it is not exclusive of men being an asshole.

I also feel that the rethoric used when telling these stories (either by Goldstein or Beta) is to put a veil of pity over Axl, to excuse him for his mistreatment of women and make Stephanie look like she was an insensitive bitch who, despite of Axl's huge displays of love, didn't give a fuck and didn't stick around as she was supposed to do. How can you not love a guy who takes a ship to the moon and grabs a star for you?

That kind of reasoning makes my blood boil.

Do you consider any show of affection love?

[killuridols]

Just now, Rocketqueen76 said:

Do you consider any show of affection love?

Initially, not.

Depends on what the relationship is like.

[Rocketqueen76]

6 minutes ago, killuridols said:

Initially, not.

Depends on what the relationship is like.

Wow....very jaded by the world huh?

[Jane M.]

4 hours ago, Lio said:

You're welcome

Gross, just like their kiss on NR. Get a room. 

3 hours ago, Lumikki said:

 

Much better

Too bad he didn't make it with either one.

[Lumikki]

43 minutes ago, killuridols said:

Probably, the story of Axl threatening Erin with a gun is much less glamorous than Axl riding a white horse to apologize to another woman, and in the general public mind, this story sticks more because it's not violent and it sounds like taken from a fairy tale.

However, if one can get rid of all the sugarcoating (especially Goldstein's liters of drool ), it is easy to find a pattern in all of these odd behavior: Axl thinking that in order to gain a woman's love he had to do extraordinary things, out of this world things, either terrifying or adorable, and that he was entitled to pardon or marriage because what he did for them no other guy would dare.

Call me bitter or whatever, but the tale of Axl in a white horse apologizing to Stephanie I can't find it "adorable" nor "cute" or even think of it as "what we do for love...". All I can think of it, as well as him threatening Erin to marry him, is that the guy was fucking CLUELESS about what love is about, relationships are about and that none of his extraordinaire acts of "Love" were worth a crap because in the end, all he did was scare those women away.

What Erin and Stephanie needed were not white horses and caged birds, but a guy who would treat them WELL, like decent persons, like human beings, not things he could buy with money and extravagant bullshit.

I agree, though I do think his intentions were good and his emotions very much real. It's not cute or adorable, it's a symptom of how very screwed up he was.

I guess it all comes back to that issue we recently discussed in relation to Slash and the other guys in the band- Axl likes making grand gestures, but he doesn't know how to properly communicate or express love. What relationships and love really are about, as you said.

The shit Axl did in his romantic relationships are perfect examples of ridiculously grand gestures again. Riding in on white horse, caged birds, threatening to kill himself for love- that's the kind of thing you find in books and movies, in everything from classic literature to crappy daytime TV dramas. And that's probably where he (subconsciously or consciously) got these ideas from too. Since he didn't exactly grow up in a very loving environment, media depictions of "love" probably were his main reference point for that kind of thing, as sad as it is.

 

 

 

[Rocketqueen76]

13 minutes ago, Lumikki said:

I agree, though I do think his intentions were good and his emotions very much real. It's not cute or adorable, it's a symptom of how very screwed up he was.

I guess it all comes back to that issue we recently discussed in relation to Slash and the other guys in the band- Axl likes making grand gestures, but he doesn't know how to properly communicate or express love. What relationships and love really are about, as you said.

The shit Axl did in his romantic relationships are perfect examples of ridiculously grand gestures again. Riding in on white horse, caged birds, threatening to kill himself for love- that's the kind of thing you find in books and movies, in everything from classic literature to crappy daytime TV dramas. And that's probably where he (subconsciously or consciously) got these ideas from too. Since he didn't exactly grow up in a very loving environment, media depictions of "love" probably were his main reference point for that kind of thing, as sad as it is.

 

 

 

This line from breakdown comes to mind...

"So if I call you out of habit, I'm out of love and I gotta have it...."

[killuridols]

42 minutes ago, Rocketqueen76 said:

Wow....very jaded by the world huh?

wtf you talking about?

Hugs, kisses, touching, smiles, looks, kind words... they are all displays of affection, right?

Giving them or exchanging them with other people, it doesn't necesarily mean love is involved.
But sometimes there is love involved. So it really depends on the relationship, the context, the people.

 

Lots of people kiss, hug, touch and smile as a formality, as part of greeting rituals, or any other social ritual.

When people are at table in Christmas Eve, surrounded by family and relatives, maybe an uncle you see only once a year... can you say that hugging or kissing that uncle means you love him?
Hell, no.

When I make out with some random person at the night club, does it mean that I love them? Breaking news: NO

It doesn't mean that I'm jaded. I was trying to respond to your question with total honesty.
Too bad you couldn't appreciate it and had to judge me.

What.e.ver.

[Rocketqueen76]

11 minutes ago, killuridols said:

wtf you talking about?

Hugs, kisses, touching, smiles, looks, kind words... they are all displays of affection, right?

Giving them or exchanging them with other people, it doesn't necesarily mean love is involved.
But sometimes there is love involved. So it really depends on the relationship, the context, the people.

 

Lots of people kiss, hug, touch and smile as a formality, as part of greeting rituals, or any other social ritual.

When people are at table in Christmas Eve, surrounded by family and relatives, maybe an uncle you see only once a year... can you say that hugging or kissing that uncle means you love him?
Hell, no.

When I make out with some random person at the night club, does it mean that I love them? Breaking news: NO

It doesn't mean that I'm jaded. I was trying to respond to your question with total honesty.
Too bad you couldn't appreciate it and had to judge me.

What.e.ver.

Tone down your venom.....I was not judging you merely making a statement in response. 

I could take every condescending comment you make and say that you are judging our intelligence, but I won't EVER say that because I know that is not your intent. So don't immediately go on the defensive in regards to what one says. Maybe if you had asked me first, I would have told you it wasn't a judgement. Hell, I'm jaded as a mofo in more ways than one and I don't mind being called on it....j/s

[Blackstar]

1 hour ago, killuridols said:

OMG you made me laugh with your conclusion and that pic

But hey, I don't think we were trying to be categoric here about anything.... We were just sharing opinions on what some pics looked like to us and they are all subjective interpretations, of course.

As you can see, some people here see happiness and love in Axl/Erin pics while others see tension, clumsiness and pain.

Same goes with the Axl/Steph pics.

Of course, we will never know the real feelings of Axl for Erin, Stephanie and from them towards him but we're just speculating and trying to read expressions.

None of it was decisive.

 

History also says that Axl told Erin he would kill himself if she did not marry him.

Probably, the story of Axl threatening Erin with a gun is much less glamorous than Axl riding a white horse to apologize to another woman, and in the general public mind, this story sticks more because it's not violent and it sounds like taken from a fairy tale.

However, if one can get rid of all the sugarcoating (especially Goldstein's liters of drool ), it is easy to find a pattern in all of these odd behavior: Axl thinking that in order to gain a woman's love he had to do extraordinary things, out of this world things, either terrifying or adorable, and that he was entitled to pardon or marriage because what he did for them no other guy would dare.

Call me bitter or whatever, but the tale of Axl in a white horse apologizing to Stephanie I can't find it "adorable" nor "cute" or even think of it as "what we do for love...". All I can think of it, as well as him threatening Erin to marry him, is that the guy was fucking CLUELESS about what love is about, relationships are about and that none of his extraordinaire acts of "Love" were worth a crap because in the end, all he did was scare those women away.

What Erin and Stephanie needed were not white horses and caged birds, but a guy who would treat them WELL, like decent persons, like human beings, not things he could buy with money and extravagant bullshit.

I know we have argued about this before here and its not my intention to be a jackass again, lol, but well... as you know, I dont consider "love" any of this. Love is not about being a fucking jerk to your woman and then trying to fix it with money and bullshit. Same goes the other way around, of course, it is not exclusive of men being an asshole.

I also feel that the rethoric used when telling these stories (either by Goldstein or Beta) is to put a veil of pity over Axl, to excuse him for his mistreatment of women and make Stephanie look like she was an insensitive bitch who, despite of Axl's huge displays of love, didn't give a fuck and didn't stick around as she was supposed to do. How can you not love a guy who takes a ship to the moon and grabs a star for you?

That kind of reasoning makes my blood boil.

I agree with the part in bold. And yeah, Doug's drooling is appalling.

About the rest of your post, I don't know. What you describe leads to Axl being rather a sociopath, ie. someone who just simulates what he thinks love, empathy and affection are because he's incapable of having real feelings, than a troubled/traumatized person who possibly suffers from another kind of disorder. I don't think Axl was/is a sociopath. Of course this kind of love, either in regards to relationships with women or with the band, is not healthy, but I don't think it wasn't real.

Edited December 13, 2016 by Blackstar

[killuridols]

3 minutes ago, Rocketqueen76 said:

Tone down your venom.....I was not judging you merely making a statement in response. 

I could take every condescending comment you make and say that you are judging our intelligence, but I won't EVER say that because I know that is not your intent.

lol

2 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

I agree with the part in bold. And yeah, Doug's drooling is appalling.

About the rest of your post, I don't know. What you describe leads to Axl being rather a sociopath, ie. someone who's just simulates what he thinks love, empathy and affection are because he's incapable of having real feelings, than a troubled/traumatized person who possibly suffers from another kind of disorder. I don't think Axl was/is a sociopath. Of course this kind of love, either in regards to relationships with women or with the band, is not healthy, but I don't think it wasn't real.

I don't know what a sociopath is and I'm not calling Axl one because I'm not in position to diagnose him with any label like that. I was just telling you what I think about those "grand gestures" @Lumikki mentioned before and how I am unable to see them as "acts of love", because they mostly belong to fairy tales and movies than real life stuff.

Gotta wonder what kind of (huge?) mistake he did or in what (huge?) way he hurt her that he thought of getting a white horse to apologize to her

I don't think he simulated love; I think he "believed" he loved Stephanie to death but he didn't..... You don't love someone to death and at the same time you humilliate her in front of 50.000 people, washing the dirty laundry and embarassing other people like Warren Betty or Annette Benning because you think (or know) that she cheated on you (especially when you also cheat on her but since she's a woman she's not allowed to do it).

You don't love someone to death and you make her play your ex-wife in a video, which plotline is all about your relationship with your ex-wife.

You don't love someone to death and you try to turn her own son against his mother, by recording on video that you hope someday the kid watches that video and "finds the truth".

And if it's true what she said, you don't love someone to death and you drag her around broken glass, kick her in the stomach and give her a black eye.

For all these reasons and more, I stay firm in my statement that none of that is love.

[Blackstar]

2 minutes ago, killuridols said:

I don't think he simulated love; I think he "believed" he loved Stephanie to death but he didn't.....

Sociopaths do exactly this. They don't simulate consciously, ie. fake it, they think that they have feelings like other people but in reality they are incapable of it.

[Rocketqueen76]

5 minutes ago, killuridols said:

lol

 

Not laughing here .....

[killuridols]

7 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

Sociopaths do exactly this. They don't simulate consciously, ie. fake it, they think that they have feelings like other people but in reality they are incapable of it.

I have no idea if he has a disorder like that or not. Like I said before, I'm not in position to diagnose him.

I'm also not generalizing that he is or was like this with every woman in his life.

But since we are always going back to those quotes where people (not Axl) say "he loved her to death", the Stephanie case is all I can speculate about because, along with Erin, they are the only two relationships of him that we have more information and details.

Edited December 14, 2016 by killuridols