Jump to content

GNR Women's discussion


Carlycosmos

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, Fansince88 said:

I watched it a few weeks ago and yes it is very interesting. How can your heart not melt a little when he talks about Susan having the "Warrior spirit of 10 men"  and the birth of Grace.  It's fascinating to watch how Duff has evolved over the years. 

I actually cried when Duff talked about Susan and Grace. Watching them exchange vows was soooo....:wub:

9 minutes ago, dgnr said:

Found this :rofl-lol::rofl-lol:
 


Merry Christmas, I guess :P 

ROTFL.....OMG!!!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Frey I don't know if you have ever read this little interview, and I don't know if you would find it relevant. I thought about it when you were talking to @killuridols about how Axl shouldn't have been on the illusions tour, or at least tried to help him  properly before they started it. Forgot to post it though :lol: This is a little bit of how Axl felt about it, not so long ago

http://www.nme.com/news/music/guns-n-roses-97-1264098

And it also makes me think way back to when we were all talking about Axls interview with China Exchange, when Axl said one of the first things he said to Slash was about the lies in his book, well seems he wasn't happy with how he was portrayed during the illusions tour. So at least we now know what one of the problems is that he had with Slash's book. 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Blackstar said:

In most modern societies there are very specific procedures, restrictions and conditions under which people are sent to a mental institution against their will (which means taking away their freedom); this is due to the policies of de-institutionalization as a result of modern psychiatry concepts (developed in the context of the civil and human rights movement in the 60s) as well as of economic factors, ie. reduction of government budget for health care (these don't apply to jails though, which in most countries are overpopulated). There has to be a court order preceded by a hearing with testimonies and mental health evaluations which indicate that the person suffers from a disorder, is dangerous and not aware that he/she needs help. This procedure takes place either when the person is arrested for some serious offense (in this case the mentally ill offenders, mostly those of lower social class, are usually sent to jail instead of a mental institution) or when a petition is filed by a third party, e.g. a family member; in this case, if there isn't strong indication that the person is as dangerous as to kill someone, the court may opt for outpatient treatment and assign a supervisor (usually a relative) who will assure that the person will have therapy sessions, take medication and do whatever else it takes.

Anyway, as far as we know Axl never underwent a proper mental health evaluation and he wasn't diagnosed with anything, although seemingly there was something wrong. And I think we all agree that we can't diagnose him (even if we were psychiatrists) from here, let alone determine that he suffered from something serious enough that would have made necessary for him to be locked up in a mental institution.

I know all that and Im not determining anything.

I don't even know why I am being given all this speech just because I shared some information. :shrugs:

So I guess this will be it.

Lips sealed from now on.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Blackstar said:

My objections start from what you said Axl’s treatment “should” have been and with the way you backed up your point.

You said that simple professional therapy wouldn’t be enough for Axl and the only suitable treatment for him would have been institutionalization even against his will, because in modern societies (that have ways to control their citizens etc) people like Axl (and even less grave cases) get locked up in mental hospitals. And what I did in my last post was to point out 1) that this is not what most modern societies do...

You've done an oversimplification of the way my conversation with Frey developed and twisted it into something that it is not what you've concluded.

First of all, I brought up the way societies deal with individuals 'out of control' because Frey said to me that there are plenty of people out there (similar to how Axl acted in the 80's and 90's) going wild, having fights, destroying things, beating up wives and apparently getting away with it. (He said this as a way to minimize the evidence I had presented before about Axl being a serious case of someone who had not "lost it" once, but had an extensive pattern of misbehavior, misconduct and agressive attitude towards himself and others).

I objected to it by reminding him that most modern societies have institutions that were created in order to keep such individuals under control and even though, not everybody who gets into a fight or trashes things effectively ends up in one of these institutions, most of the ones who have repeatedly broken the social order are institutionalized or are going under a process to be there.

Mental institutions and other centers of the sort (rehab places, farms, halfway centers, as they are called now) still exist in most modern societies. 

It is true what you said that deinstitutionalization it is a tendency that's gaining force because large mental hospitals can't hold any more people or because there are people with different disorders and needs that do not fit a mental hospital per se. In Argentina, we have places called farms and halfway houses, usually located very far away from urban centers, in contact with nature and animals, where some patients get a different kind of treatment than what they would receive at a proper mental hospital.

But in your first point you did not demonstrate that modern societies do not keep people under control anymore. You just described the procedure that precedes institutionalization of mental patients, which is something I knew all the way and that I don't understand why it is being brought up, since I never suggested that institutionalization was done "a la Neanderthal" in any place that I know. :shrugs:

Also, I never said or suggested that Axl had to be taken to a mental institution against his will. What I questioned was if Axl was in condition to determine himself what would be the best treatment for his affection, only under the justification of him not believing in traditional medicine, psychiatry or traditional therapy.

Who wants to be locked up anyway? No one, really. Who wants to go under chemotherapy? No one does.

I believe in the free will of a person who wants to die or not cure a disease but only when that disease does not affect people around the patient.

Axl's inmense and uncontrollable rage was affecting not only him but everybody around him. Something had to be done. Nothing was done. People slowly walked away from him.

2 hours ago, Blackstar said:

And 2) even if it was, we are not in the position to say that this is what should have been done with Axl, as we don’t know what his issues were/are; you yourself said, and I agree of course, that we can’t diagnose him from here (and you said it when I simply brought up a term), so since we can’t do that, it goes without saying that we can’t say what his treatment should be. Moreover, I think that having Axl locked up (even if it had been suggested and there had been a way for it to be done) would have been cruel as well as ineffective (as @Frey pointed out), because he wouldn’t be receptive to a treatment he didn’t believe in.

It's different.

You talked about an specific term. You said or suggested I was describing a sociopath and I said "hey! I have no idea what a sociopath is and I will not call him that" because that is an specific diagnose that I feel I can't make.

However, when I talked about the institutionalization, I did because it is a call for help any relative, friend, person in charge or a doctor can make if they feel someone they love or care for has gone out of control and it is impossible to deal with it in a domestic way.

I have enough information to state that Axl was "bad enough" and a good candidate to spend some time in a place where he would receive the treatment he needed because friends support, band support and management support it was short at the time. None of those people had the elements necessary to deal with Axl and the way he was.

This was not a guy who, one night got drunk and fought some other guys, then went back home and slept 24 hours. Or someone who was always patient but one day lost it and trashed a tv.

No. This was a guy who got in trouble constantly. Trashed apartments daily, hotel rooms, threw people down stairs, beated up his partner permanently, jumped out of a car in movement, jumped from the stage and punched a guy just because his photo was being taken, threatened to kill himself with guns, with pills, did not show up on time to work and provoked riots.

If you or anyone else don't want to believe me, that's fine but then don't ask me questions. 

Cruel? Cruel is what he did to people around him, to people who loved him. Cruel was to leave him untreated and running wild, destroying every relationship he had until everybody was so fucking fed up that he ended up alone and had to hire a woman to feel compassion for him.

You say we can't diagnose him or say what treatment was best for him but then you say that such or such treatment would have been ineffective or useless. How do you know this if he was never submitted to it? 

We are going around in circles again and that's why Im tired of this silly competition on who's got the best treatment for Axl.

The only thing that imo might have worked with Axl would be for him to be persuaded, even with the use of emotional pressure, that he needed to get professional help to find out what was wrong and how he should deal with it. I mean something similar with what happened with Slash, when he was set up for a fake interview, and when he got there he saw, instead of a journalist and a photographer, his mother, his father, his friends, the management, probably the band etc. telling him he should go to rehab asap for his own good (it didn’t work in long term, though). This, of course, provided that there were people who cared enough for Axl to do it and Axl felt it that they cared.  

Again. Same thing. Your treatment is better than mine, lol :lol:

How do you know he was not talked into this before? How do we know how many times and how many ways were tried with this guy?

Bottom line is he was out of control and he was a bad serious case who caused all kind of trouble to a lot of people and himself.

He was a train wreck for most part of his life and I can't even say he's doing well right now.

So far, it looks like he's having the first good tour of his life (fingers crossed) and I hope he remains like this until the end. First and most, for his own good; then for the band and the fans.

Im sorry for the length of this but I don't like being misinterpreted and doubted.

 

 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

"jumped from the stage and punched a guy just because his photo was being taken" 

This is for anyone who might not really know what the legal standings were here in the States back in the 90's

Axl was not angry about his photo being taken, the fan in question was filming the show illegally. Axl stopped singing and asked security to confiscate the video camera twice...they did nothing. Axl jumped down and got the video camera and yes he did hit the guy which he shouldn't have. 

Back then is was against the law to film concerts without permission here in America. Axl actually saved that guy from going to jail for bootlegging and paying a ridiculously enormous fine.

In no way am I saying Axl was right, but his actions minus the assault were justified.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If the guy was going to get in trouble for 'illegally filming the show' (what a fucking joke :lol:) that was that guy problem, not Axl's.

His job was singer, not boss of security or anything related to security that night.

His actions were uncalled for, totally and completely disproportionate to the situation.

Saved the guy?

:rofl-lol:

:facepalm:

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, killuridols said:

You've done an oversimplification of the way my conversation with Frey developed and twisted it into something that it is not what you've concluded.

...

It is true what you said that deinstitutionalization it is a tendency that's gaining force because large mental hospitals can't hold any more people or because there are people with different disorders and needs that do not fit a mental hospital per se. In Argentina, we have places called farms and halfway houses, usually located very far away from urban centers, in contact with nature and animals, where some patients get a different kind of treatment than what they would receive at a proper mental hospital.

But in your first point you did not demonstrate that modern societies do not keep people under control anymore. You just described the procedure that precedes institutionalization of mental patients, which is something I knew all the way and that I don't understand why it is being brought up, since I never suggested that institutionalization was done "a la Neanderthal" in any place that I know. :shrugs:

...

However, when I talked about the institutionalization, I did because it is a call for help any relative, friend, person in charge or a doctor can make if they feel someone they love or care for has gone out of control and it is impossible to deal with it in a domestic way.

I didn't twist anything. I didn't demonstrate that there aren't any control mechanisms in modern societies (and I didn't try to) because I don't think there aren't; it would be ignorant of me to try to make a point like this and I'm not that ignorant of social theory -even ancient societies had control mechanisms. My point with the description of the procedures (and of what in reality they result in, at least in most countries) was that people, even with Axl's back record, are not locked up in mental institutions (or other facilities of the same purpose) as easily as you presented it (I don't know about Argentina though, maybe it's different there); in fact it's "easier" for them to go to jail (of course provided that they have been arrested for all these actions). Outpatient treatment under a court order is control as well. Furthermore, I don't think these procedures could realistically have been followed for Axl. Who could have filed a petition in court? Erin? His siblings? His friends?

Quote

I have enough information to state that Axl was "bad enough" and a good candidate to spend some time in a place where he would receive the treatment he needed because friends support, band support and management support it was short at the time. None of those people had the elements necessary to deal with Axl and the way he was.

This was not a guy who, one night got drunk and fought some other guys, then went back home and slept 24 hours. Or someone who was always patient but one day lost it and trashed a tv.

No. This was a guy who got in trouble constantly. Trashed apartments daily, hotel rooms, threw people down stairs, beated up his partner permanently, jumped out of a car in movement, jumped from the stage and punched a guy just because his photo was being taken, threatened to kill himself with guns, with pills, did not show up on time to work and provoked riots.

If you or anyone else don't want to believe me, that's fine but then don't ask me questions. 

I don't understand why you keep saying that I doubt your information and you dramatize it with "don't ask me questions", "lips sealed from now on" etc. All Axl's actions you recite here are publicly known and I didn't say I didn't believe they happened. Nor I said I didn't believe the thing about the record label, which was your information.

Quote

 

Cruel? Cruel is what he did to people around him, to people who loved him. Cruel was to leave him untreated and running wild, destroying every relationship he had until everybody was so fucking fed up that he ended up alone and had to hire a woman to feel compassion for him.

Bottom line is he was out of control and he was a bad serious case who caused all kind of trouble to a lot of people and himself.

Yes, as outrageous as it may seem to you or others, I still think it would be cruel if it was done against his will and violently. Not for Axl specifically, but for any average Joe like that). I would only accept it for mentally ill people that are possible murderers or possible serial rapists and pedophiles (so, if your information includes attempted murder, my position will change). Also, all the things Axl did (repeatedly or not) are not on the same scale; beating women is very serious, trashing apartments not so much and being late to work even less. And anyway, he did some work by himself. He hasn't been doing all these things since 93. He continued being suicidal and depressive (which, at least partially, caused him being late, canceling tours, taking him forever to make an album etc) but as far as we know he hasn't been aggressive and he didn't harm other people (with the exception of biting that guy's leg).

Quote

You say we can't diagnose him or say what treatment was best for him but then you say that such or such treatment would have been ineffective or useless. How do you know this if he was never submitted to it? 

I didn't say "I know". I always say "I think" or "imo". And I wasn't talking about the treatment per se, but specifically about involuntary institutionalization (meaning police, restraints, etc), assuming Axl's reaction based on what it is known about his character and condition, and also on common sense.

Quote

We are going around in circles again and that's why Im tired of this silly competition on who's got the best treatment for Axl.

Again. Same thing. Your treatment is better than mine, lol :lol:

How do you know he was not talked into this before? How do we know how many times and how many ways were tried with this guy?

And who is twisting arguments now? :lol:I didn't suggest any kind of treatment (unlike you). I talked about Axl being persuaded to ask voluntarily for professional help that would evaluate his condition and suggest what kind of treatment he needed. And no, I don't know if there were people who tried to talk him into it this way. That's why I said "might have worked". I try to choose my words very carefully.

I agree though that we're going around in circles and I think it's pointless to continue arguing.

Edited by Blackstar
  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, killuridols said:

If the guy was going to get in trouble for 'illegally filming the show' (what a fucking joke :lol:) that was that guy problem, not Axl's.

His job was singer, not boss of security or anything related to security that night.

His actions were uncalled for, totally and completely disproportionate to the situation.

Saved the guy?

:rofl-lol:

:facepalm:

I don't know how things work in Argentina, but here in America we have anti-piracy laws that have been enforced since the 70's. In the 90's it was illegal for fans to bring in camcorders and film the shows because those recordings would wind up being sold on street corners which in turn would be copyright infringement. So there is nothing joking about it. And when I said saved the guy, I meant that the band or even the security there that night (that again took no action when asked) could have had the guy thrown in jail or escorted from the venue for breaking the law. Instead (and again I never said he was right to hit the guy just the reason for taking the camera was justified) he did what security wouldn't. 

 

Edited by Rocketqueen76
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@SerenityScorp Where's that picture of Beta at some kind of party from? I don't even know what I'm looking at there.

 

On 17.12.2016 at 1:19 AM, MillionsOfSpiders said:

@Frey I don't know if you have ever read this little interview, and I don't know if you would find it relevant. I thought about it when you were talking to @killuridols about how Axl shouldn't have been on the illusions tour, or at least tried to help him  properly before they started it. Forgot to post it though :lol: This is a little bit of how Axl felt about it, not so long ago

http://www.nme.com/news/music/guns-n-roses-97-1264098

And it also makes me think way back to when we were all talking about Axls interview with China Exchange, when Axl said one of the first things he said to Slash was about the lies in his book, well seems he wasn't happy with how he was portrayed during the illusions tour. So at least we now know what one of the problems is that he had with Slash's book. 

Thanks, I don't think I've read that particular article before. Axl does basically say what he's always saying- he felt he wasn't up to touring and didn't want to and was forced or talked into it by Niven and Slash. I believe it's true too. Slash was probably going stir crazy, Niven wanted to move the band forward (and the money),... And then it all backfired on them spectacularly, because that tour ultimately broke them and tore them apart.

 

As for the rest of the discussion... Thanks for saving me the typing @Blackstar. I basically agree with everything you said and you expressed it much better than I could at the moment.

 

 

 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...