Tour Lithographs and show specific artwork

[ZoSoRose]

The devil one was unnumbered

 

[amaninjapan]

1 minute ago, ZoSoRose said:

The devil one was unnumbered

 

He's right - some of them were unnumbered such as Foxboro and the New Jersey devil litho. Las Vegas 2016 was definitely numbered though, so buyer beware.

[ZoSoRose]

2 hours ago, amaninjapan said:

He's right - some of them were unnumbered such as Foxboro and the New Jersey devil litho. Las Vegas 2016 was definitely numbered though, so buyer beware.

Yeah, I have both 2016 Vegas ones and they are both numbered out of 1000

[AxlIsGod.]

I think if i got an unnumbered one id have to get it from the show or from someone who i know was there. Getting ones that were unnumbered off ebay is a risk, as you ultimately never know if its a fake.

[uzi your illusion]

I was at both shows at MetLife and was a little disappointed that the Devil on night 2 wasn't numbered. We will probably never know for sure but I asked multiple vendors at different stands how many posters they had of the NJ Devil and they all said 250. For whatever that worth.

[k12]

how hard is to make these lithographs? I bought a Lithograph from this guy on Ebay, and he has many of them from many different shows, they are all numbered but anyone can number them, if someone has the right machinery can they just print these and it looks like the real thing?

 

here is the guy, you can see on his current sales and his past sales he has literally sold like hundreds of them (and also hundreds of Show T-shirts from all over the world) makes me wonder if the Lithograph I got from him is a fake, how can someone have so many unless they are traveling around the world with the band?

 

https://www.ebay.com/sch/warpig96/m.html?item=162873992973&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2562

 

oh and to top it, looking at his feedback, one person wrote:

 

Quote

	99% item was a fake. Returned after dispute	Buyer: e***g ( 897)	During past month
	Reply by warpig96 (Jan-07-18 09:10): Item is 100% real. Buyer did not read item description. Returned item damaged.
	Rare Guns N Roses Lithograph Not In This Lifetime 2017 NYC Slash 10/16/17 MSG (#162740812721)

 

Edited February 2, 2018 by k12

[AxlIsGod.]

4 hours ago, k12 said:

how hard is to make these lithographs? I bought a Lithograph from this guy on Ebay, and he has many of them from many different shows, they are all numbered but anyone can number them, if someone has the right machinery can they just print these and it looks like the real thing?

 

here is the guy, you can see on his current sales and his past sales he has literally sold like hundreds of them (and also hundreds of Show T-shirts from all over the world) makes me wonder if the Lithograph I got from him is a fake, how can someone have so many unless they are traveling around the world with the band?

 

https://www.ebay.com/sch/warpig96/m.html?item=162873992973&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2562

 

oh and to top it, looking at his feedback, one person wrote:

 

 

It seems youre new to this thread. The warpig saga continues...

[skassi]

On 27/01/2018 at 1:16 PM, The Holographic Universe said:

Framing a shirt is a killer idea. Looks incredible man. Well done.

Thank you! Creds to Jason B. for the wicked idea! 😄

Finally got these two up. 

[The Holographic Universe]

2 hours ago, skassi said:

Thank you! Creds to Jason B. for the wicked idea! 😄

Finally got these two up. 

They both look good, but the Bear has a great flow. 

[nycgunner]

Hello - apologies if this is the wrong place. I have an extra LA Forum Axl shirt (size Large). Brand new. Not worn or washed. 

Does anyone want to trade? Ideally looking for the Duff MSG NYC shirt (Large)

Edited February 6, 2018 by nycgunner

[mikeman5150]

On 2/1/2018 at 1:39 AM, k12 said:

does anyone now why there are some Lithographs that are not numbered? I have seen on Ebay people selling Lithographs that do not have any numbers on them , I am thinking they might be fakes, but I can tell based on someone maybe just selling 1 of them they are probably real, for example the ebay listings below,did they forget to number some of the ones they sold?

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Guns-N-Roses-Concert-Poster-East-Rutherford-NJ-Not-In-This-Lifetime-Devil/282827592800?hash=item41d9d69460:g:WH8AAOSwy~BaTAsy

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Guns-N-Roses-Concert-Poster-Las-Vegas-2016-Not-In-This-Lifetime/282830401428?hash=item41da016f94:g:QN4AAOSwndZaVA36

I looked at a pittsburgh one on eBay and the seller said it was unnumbered because it was in the stack that was in the VIP area. He said those didn't get numbered. I didn't believe him and skipped on it. 

[amaninjapan]

8 hours ago, mikeman5150 said:

I looked at a pittsburgh one on eBay and the seller said it was unnumbered because it was in the stack that was in the VIP area. He said those didn't get numbered. I didn't believe him and skipped on it. 

My two cents on the "VIP lithos" line:

I have three anecdotal stories you can all take at face value:

1) One of my good friends literally had to wait to buy a litho because the staff were still numbering them. He asked for three and they were reluctant to sell him so many. The staff said there weren't many and "30 of them already went to the band" - Correct me if I'm wrong here but if the band had their own bunch of lithos that were unnumbered, then it shouldn't matter how many they took because they wouldn't be counted as part of the stack to sell. They could take 30, they could take 300, it doesn't matter - if they were unnumbered, there would still be a full numbered set being sold to fans.

2) I have one of those "VIP" lithos. It was originally given to one of the crew, who asked for one for a friend that lived in the city they were performing in that night that ended up not being able to make it to the show. The crew member got other cool things like a signed program. Their friend liked the program more and didn't feel attached to the litho so I ended up with it. It is numbered in the single digits. This seems to correlate at least to the idea that the band takes 20 or 30 "off the top" and they get the lower numbers. Also perhaps the reason I think why nobody has ever seen a litho with a super low number for sale. The lowest for sale on Ebay has been like... #25? Not saying it happens at EVERY show, but it does seem to make sense.

3) Duff autographed an Osaka litho and auctioned it off on Facebook to pay for... uhh, someone's medical bills? Or something? I don't remember. Anyway, the guy who bought it posted a pic of it on Nightrain and it was number #14. Which again seems to correlate with the above two stories - The band gets a bunch of the lithos, usually off the top and they're usually low numbers.

As far as I'm concerned, if it's a concert with a numbered litho (ie - nearly all of them) then a litho without a number is not genuine. Buyers, please BE CAREFUL. There's also a lot of people selling 'prints' and 'reprints' on Ebay. Some are sneakier than others. Some don't even try to hide it and 'reprint' them on shitty A4 pages, it's unreal and pathetic. I know some people might just be happy with a copy, but please don't reward these people for doing the wrong thing.

[GoBucky]

Pearl Jam only sells non-numbered posters at the shows and the artists then sell numbered artist prints on their websites days after the shows. If Guns did this, it would probably avoid the confusions...however it would also make them easier for people to make fake prints. PJ's posters are silk screened, so they pretty much can't be copied like lithos can.

[troccoli]

On 2/6/2018 at 5:35 AM, amaninjapan said:

My two cents on the "VIP lithos" line:

I have three anecdotal stories you can all take at face value:

1) One of my good friends literally had to wait to buy a litho because the staff were still numbering them. He asked for three and they were reluctant to sell him so many. The staff said there weren't many and "30 of them already went to the band" - Correct me if I'm wrong here but if the band had their own bunch of lithos that were unnumbered, then it shouldn't matter how many they took because they wouldn't be counted as part of the stack to sell. They could take 30, they could take 300, it doesn't matter - if they were unnumbered, there would still be a full numbered set being sold to fans.

2) I have one of those "VIP" lithos. It was originally given to one of the crew, who asked for one for a friend that lived in the city they were performing in that night that ended up not being able to make it to the show. The crew member got other cool things like a signed program. Their friend liked the program more and didn't feel attached to the litho so I ended up with it. It is numbered in the single digits. This seems to correlate at least to the idea that the band takes 20 or 30 "off the top" and they get the lower numbers. Also perhaps the reason I think why nobody has ever seen a litho with a super low number for sale. The lowest for sale on Ebay has been like... #25? Not saying it happens at EVERY show, but it does seem to make sense.

3) Duff autographed an Osaka litho and auctioned it off on Facebook to pay for... uhh, someone's medical bills? Or something? I don't remember. Anyway, the guy who bought it posted a pic of it on Nightrain and it was number #14. Which again seems to correlate with the above two stories - The band gets a bunch of the lithos, usually off the top and they're usually low numbers.

As far as I'm concerned, if it's a concert with a numbered litho (ie - nearly all of them) then a litho without a number is not genuine. Buyers, please BE CAREFUL. There's also a lot of people selling 'prints' and 'reprints' on Ebay. Some are sneakier than others. Some don't even try to hide it and 'reprint' them on shitty A4 pages, it's unreal and pathetic. I know some people might just be happy with a copy, but please don't reward these people for doing the wrong thing.

Very interesting to hear for sure!  I think the bottom line is no one really knows for sure and here are my opinions.  Full disclosure here, I have purchased stuff from warpig, including lithos and clothing.  And I am convinced based on quality.  I have zero doubt about the shirts.  For evidence regarding the shirts look no further than the Gdansk shirt he sold.  I forgot to bid of course and I asked him if he had any more and he did not.  If he was bootlegging them wouldn't he have made more to meet the demand? 

Personally I believe the lithos to be legit too.  First of all, in the past GNR have set aside posters only for VIPs.  Look at the Appetite For Democracy residency.  Three posters from then were only available to the VIPs attending.  Agreed, not the exact same situation here.  Just saying it has happened.  As for the current shows it is possible that unnumbered ones are set aside (perhaps not at every show) for the VIPs, and that low number numbered lithos are for the band and close associates (Fernando, Beta, Del, etc.).  Considering their entourage, just taking 30 wouldn't leave many left over for VIPs.  That begs the question, why not give VIPs numbered lithos or why not give the band unnumbered lithos?  Well I would think numbered lithos are more special and desirable so if I was going to give ones directly to the band I would give them numbered ones.  As for the VIPs (celebrities, rich people, venue owner, etc.) perhaps the powers that be figured they already get enough perks so give them unnumbered ones and if they want numbered they can wait in line like everyone else?  Hard to know really.

You will notice that recently warpig has been selling some that are numbered.  Why the fuck would he do this if he was already doing fine selling unnumbered ones?  You could say he;s now numbering them so they sell higher.  A possibility to be sure.  Lastly, the feedback is solid.

Can't someone just ask the artist how many they sold to the band/mgmt/venue?  That could solve this mystery!

[The Holographic Universe]

56 minutes ago, troccoli said:

Very interesting to hear for sure!  I think the bottom line is no one really knows for sure and here are my opinions.  Full disclosure here, I have purchased stuff from warpig, including lithos and clothing.  And I am convinced based on quality.  I have zero doubt about the shirts.  For evidence regarding the shirts look no further than the Gdansk shirt he sold.  I forgot to bid of course and I asked him if he had any more and he did not.  If he was bootlegging them wouldn't he have made more to meet the demand? 

Personally I believe the lithos to be legit too.  First of all, in the past GNR have set aside posters only for VIPs.  Look at the Appetite For Democracy residency.  Three posters from then were only available to the VIPs attending.  Agreed, not the exact same situation here.  Just saying it has happened.  As for the current shows it is possible that unnumbered ones are set aside (perhaps not at every show) for the VIPs, and that low number numbered lithos are for the band and close associates (Fernando, Beta, Del, etc.).  Considering their entourage, just taking 30 wouldn't leave many left over for VIPs.  That begs the question, why not give VIPs numbered lithos or why not give the band unnumbered lithos?  Well I would think numbered lithos are more special and desirable so if I was going to give ones directly to the band I would give them numbered ones.  As for the VIPs (celebrities, rich people, venue owner, etc.) perhaps the powers that be figured they already get enough perks so give them unnumbered ones and if they want numbered they can wait in line like everyone else?  Hard to know really.

You will notice that recently warpig has been selling some that are numbered.  Why the fuck would he do this if he was already doing fine selling unnumbered ones?  You could say he;s now numbering them so they sell higher.  A possibility to be sure.  Lastly, the feedback is solid.

Can't someone just ask the artist how many they sold to the band/mgmt/venue?  That could solve this mystery!

I purchased a Rocky litho from warpig and the quality was the same as legit litho I purchased from Man in Japan.

Edited February 11, 2018 by The Holographic Universe

[estrangedtwat]

There's a Cleveland on ebay right now numbered 25.

That's definitely the lowest I've ever witnessed being sold.  But maybe cause the Cleveland litho turned out so shitty....it doesn't seem to be very popular at all.

[ZoSoRose]

1 hour ago, estrangedtwat said:

There's a Cleveland on ebay right now numbered 25.

That's definitely the lowest I've ever witnessed being sold.  But maybe cause the Cleveland litho turned out so shitty....it doesn't seem to be very popular at all.

Yeah that one sucks

[amaninjapan]

2 hours ago, troccoli said:

If he was bootlegging them wouldn't he have made more to meet the demand?

I don't have an opinion either way about the shirts since I don't collect them or pay attention to them. I've only ever been discussing lithos.

3 hours ago, troccoli said:

Look at the Appetite For Democracy residency.  Three posters from then were only available to the VIPs attending.  Agreed, not the exact same situation here.  Just saying it has happened. 

Posters are too different from numbered lithographs in my opinion.

3 hours ago, troccoli said:

You will notice that recently warpig has been selling some that are numbered.  Why the fuck would he do this if he was already doing fine selling unnumbered ones?  You could say he;s now numbering them so they sell higher.  A possibility to be sure.  Lastly, the feedback is solid.

I always go back to a quote I heard on a TV show as a kid - "A lie is most convincingly hidden between two truths."

The best way to hide a fake is to mix it in with real items. That way if anything is ever questioned, this exact type of conversation pops up. Someone just says "but look at all these real ones!" and the seller gets the benefit of the doubt. That's how fake paintings are sold for millions. People mix them in with real paintings and the fakes are assumed to be real as well.

I always found it VERY strange that he was selling ONLY unnumbered lithos and then when people started to question him... ... wow now he's selling numbered ones as well. He had nothing but unnumbered 2016 US lithos and around the time multiple people started questioning his lithos, suddenly he started listing fairly cheap numbered lithos - Australian lithos that we all know were available online to purchase for cost price, cheap 2017 US lithos etc. Investing in a few real ones to sell to give authenticity to the fake ones you're selling is a sneaky-smart decision if it helps keep the money flowing in.

As for the solid feedback, two reasons:

1) If you paid $50 for a fake item when a real one would cost $300, you'd be happy to leave positive feedback too. You're happy you got a convincing fake for cheap instead of blowing out your budget on a real one
2) If you complain on Ebay now, all the seller needs to do is accept a return and refund the money. Once the buyer receives the money back, they're not allowed to leave feedback. If they've already left feedback, the feedback is deleted. This happened to me when I bought an 'authentic' patch for a sports jersey that ended up being an obvious fake. I left negative feedback, demanded a full refund. I got a full refund and Ebay sent me a message saying my feedback was removed since I received a refund. Ebay feedback is NOT what it used to be.

3 hours ago, troccoli said:

Can't someone just ask the artist how many they sold to the band/mgmt/venue?  That could solve this mystery!

Been there, done that. It usually doesn't work that way. The artist sells the design to Bravado and the production of the lithos is usually out of their hands.

 

At the end of the day - this is how I feel: The numbered lithos are exactly that - numbered lithos. Hypothetically, if I get a litho direct from the printer that I know is legit but unnumbered, to me that's still not real. Anybody who has collected limited edition prints knows how "Artist Prints" are usually valued much, much, much lower than the real run. They're leftovers, offcuts, imperfect prints, damaged prints etc. If these lithos are magic 'extras' then they're like APs except even less valuable since we don't know where they come from and they're being sold by some random guy. So it just amazes me people are willing to pay more for a sketchy litho than the original cost price of a real litho.

If Bravado was out there making clearly and obviously unnumbered lithos that were easy to distinguish from the numbered lithos and they were charging $25 a pop then I would be all for that. The non-limited lithos would be clearly different, people would know which type they were getting and people wouldn't be paying limited edition prices for something that is obviously not limited edition. I know there's a lot of people out there who 'just want a cheap one' and aren't willing to pay the premium prices some of these designs are going for now but in my opinion, this isn't the way to do it.

Paying premium prices for lithos that are not part of the proper numbered run disadvantages pretty much everybody.

- It legitimizes the sellers' practices and rewards them for doing the wrong thing
- It drives up the prices of fake lithos, rewarding all the scumbags - "Oh if the fakes are just the same as the real ones, I guess I'm willing to pay a little bit more for a fake"
- It reduces the price of real lithos, punishing people selling real lithos - "Oh if a fake is just the same as the real ones, then why should I pay more for a numbered one?"
- It promotes flooding the market with non-authentic lithos
- It makes it more difficult to distinguish what's real and what's not

Obviously people are allowed to spend their money on whatever they want. I just don't like rewarding bootleggers. Even if it means I have to pay a premium for a litho to know it's legit, at least I'll know it's legit.

[The Holographic Universe]

3 hours ago, amaninjapan said:

I don't have an opinion either way about the shirts since I don't collect them or pay attention to them. I've only ever been discussing lithos.

Posters are too different from numbered lithographs in my opinion.

I always go back to a quote I heard on a TV show as a kid - "A lie is most convincingly hidden between two truths."

The best way to hide a fake is to mix it in with real items. That way if anything is ever questioned, this exact type of conversation pops up. Someone just says "but look at all these real ones!" and the seller gets the benefit of the doubt. That's how fake paintings are sold for millions. People mix them in with real paintings and the fakes are assumed to be real as well.

I always found it VERY strange that he was selling ONLY unnumbered lithos and then when people started to question him... ... wow now he's selling numbered ones as well. He had nothing but unnumbered 2016 US lithos and around the time multiple people started questioning his lithos, suddenly he started listing fairly cheap numbered lithos - Australian lithos that we all know were available online to purchase for cost price, cheap 2017 US lithos etc. Investing in a few real ones to sell to give authenticity to the fake ones you're selling is a sneaky-smart decision if it helps keep the money flowing in.

As for the solid feedback, two reasons:

1) If you paid $50 for a fake item when a real one would cost $300, you'd be happy to leave positive feedback too. You're happy you got a convincing fake for cheap instead of blowing out your budget on a real one
2) If you complain on Ebay now, all the seller needs to do is accept a return and refund the money. Once the buyer receives the money back, they're not allowed to leave feedback. If they've already left feedback, the feedback is deleted. This happened to me when I bought an 'authentic' patch for a sports jersey that ended up being an obvious fake. I left negative feedback, demanded a full refund. I got a full refund and Ebay sent me a message saying my feedback was removed since I received a refund. Ebay feedback is NOT what it used to be.

Been there, done that. It usually doesn't work that way. The artist sells the design to Bravado and the production of the lithos is usually out of their hands.

 

At the end of the day - this is how I feel: The numbered lithos are exactly that - numbered lithos. Hypothetically, if I get a litho direct from the printer that I know is legit but unnumbered, to me that's still not real. Anybody who has collected limited edition prints knows how "Artist Prints" are usually valued much, much, much lower than the real run. They're leftovers, offcuts, imperfect prints, damaged prints etc. If these lithos are magic 'extras' then they're like APs except even less valuable since we don't know where they come from and they're being sold by some random guy. So it just amazes me people are willing to pay more for a sketchy litho than the original cost price of a real litho.

If Bravado was out there making clearly and obviously unnumbered lithos that were easy to distinguish from the numbered lithos and they were charging $25 a pop then I would be all for that. The non-limited lithos would be clearly different, people would know which type they were getting and people wouldn't be paying limited edition prices for something that is obviously not limited edition. I know there's a lot of people out there who 'just want a cheap one' and aren't willing to pay the premium prices some of these designs are going for now but in my opinion, this isn't the way to do it.

Paying premium prices for lithos that are not part of the proper numbered run disadvantages pretty much everybody.

- It legitimizes the sellers' practices and rewards them for doing the wrong thing
- It drives up the prices of fake lithos, rewarding all the scumbags - "Oh if the fakes are just the same as the real ones, I guess I'm willing to pay a little bit more for a fake"
- It reduces the price of real lithos, punishing people selling real lithos - "Oh if a fake is just the same as the real ones, then why should I pay more for a numbered one?"
- It promotes flooding the market with non-authentic lithos
- It makes it more difficult to distinguish what's real and what's not

Obviously people are allowed to spend their money on whatever they want. I just don't like rewarding bootleggers. Even if it means I have to pay a premium for a litho to know it's legit, at least I'll know it's legit.

The Lord of Lithos has spoken.

PS-(Said with affection)  

[amaninjapan]

Haha

Well look, I obviously can't discount the possibility that there are unnumbered lithos out there in the wild. I mean, let's face it there's almost no limited edition product out there that is confined to literally the number they said they made. One of my favorite cars ever, the Mclaren F1 LM, was limited to a production run of five cars to commemorate the five Mclaren cars that finished the 1995 24 Hours of Le Mans. But of course, even for that car, six of them exist because another one was built and kept by Mclaren.

If - and it's a big if - if these unnumbered lithos are from the same batch as the genuine numbered lithos, I'm STILL skeptical of the sellers "VIP spares" story. I have multiple reputable sources that VIP lithos are numbered and am inclined to believe them. What is far more likely to me is that they are print overruns. And if a real numbered litho sells for $50, I am sure as shit not going to spend more than that on a copy.

It's only a matter of time before someone buys a fake with a shitty attempt at handnumbering.

 

[estrangedtwat]

I'm with A Man in Japan.   Not just cause he's a fellow ex-pat in Japan, but cause he's done his homework thoroughly and the man clearly KNOWS HIS SHIT.

I've always said Warpig is just too fishy to be trusted.  At the end of the day people can do whatever they want with their money, but I hate fakes/phonies/bootlegs in all manner of items I collect.  If I want the real thing, it better be the real thing.  I would gladly buy a repro Cinci or London if it's advertised as such and priced accordingly for the FAKE it is....but people selling dubious items and not being forthcoming pisses me off.

[amaninjapan]

This forum and this thread in particular is a huge wealth of knowledge and I'm definitely grateful to have made friends (and trades!) here. I've learned a metric fuckton of stuff from here that I wouldn't have learned from anywhere else. We have a lot of people here with a lot of lithos, a lot of experience buying lithos from different concerts in different countries and I think we're all on the same page.

I understand some people don't care about the limited nature of these lithos and would be totally happy with a $1 color photocopy print, but man I hate the idea of giving sketchy sellers money for anything, especially fakes

[k12]

On 2/2/2018 at 5:43 PM, AxlIsGod. said:

It seems youre new to this thread. The warpig saga continues...

so basically the Warpig Lithographs are bogus, and the Vegas night 2 I dropped $150 on is a fake?

[amaninjapan]

1 minute ago, k12 said:

so basically the Warpig Lithographs are bogus, and the Vegas night 2 I dropped $150 on is a fake?

is the Vegas 2 numbered? If it is then it's probably real.

[k12]

53 minutes ago, amaninjapan said:

is the Vegas 2 numbered? If it is then it's probably real.

it is numbered, but can't anyone just number it to make it look real?