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GNR Women's Discussion - Part 2


alfierose

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23 minutes ago, killuridols said:

Thank you.

Well, there are many things out there, most fall into the category of "rumor" since we don't have documents or more specific proof of it but, in a nutshell, I've heard of Izzy "selling women", Steven beating a girlfriend, Slash and Axl accused of raping a minor, Axl accused and taken to court for beating up both Erin and Stephanie, Axl accused of forcing sex on Sheila Kennedy, Slash making terrible sexist comments, and lately, this Roxana Shirazi revealed Dizzy forced her to have an abortion....among other things.

In my view, cheating is not violence against women. It goes both way, women cheat too so to me, that's not a "crime". What I don't justify or find hypocrite is when patriarchal fans call Stephanie Seymour a cheater and neglect the fact that Axl was cheating on her too but he made a fucking scandal when he discovered her doing it and fans support him with that bullshit. 

OK, they all sound charming...not.  I didn't know about some of those things (Duff and Slash did shed light on the rape charge in their books and it's a matter of what the reader chooses to believe).

16 minutes ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

Well now I can't unsee it :lol: 

He is also a terrible misogynist, he went on record to say it was ok hit his wife because she was more intelligent than him and he couldn't argue with her. That was his excuse. 

He pucnched her, but that's not beating, that is hitting and it is different. According to him. 

Eeekk!!! 

He said that?!  There's an excuse if ever I heard one, as if he's not intelligent enough to sustain a verbal argument...as if he's some dumbshit.   Wow.  It's a good thing I can compartmentalise these guys or I really would be conflicted!  Axl just went down in my esteem, not that I held him in high regard to begin with.  The thing is...I separate the art from the person, which is problematic, I know because in fact, you can't truly separate art from person - one informs the other.  But I have monumental respect for Axl's work, for his musical achievements and his artistic vision.  I have never thought he'd be a great buddy or someone I'd want to hang with.  None of them.  Not even Duff.  I like their music, their stage personas, their personal style (and how photogenic they are because I'm into photography) and their crazy history.  But as people?  Well, Izzy started off as a heroin dealer, Duff was stealing cars and doing drugs, Steven was sleeping around with older women at the age of 13, Slash was shoplifting and causing trouble, Axl was...being Axl, destroying things.  That was never going to bode well for their adulthood.  

 

37 minutes ago, killuridols said:

Wow. That's a very mature approach to all of this. I admire you. I wish I wasn't so radical and that I could see it that way too.

Im not there yet. Maybe because I'm still conflicted with other things that happened to me in my life, with both men and women. Maybe someday I will grow to be better, lol.

 

I'm glad you said that! Thank you.  It shows I've made some fucking progress. :lol:  Which is reassuring to me that maybe weathering some of life's shit storms hasn't all been in vein. But don't wish you were less radical. :)  You are who you are.  That's why I love the discussion here.  I find it all incredibly enlightening getting all the different viewpoints.  Always something to learn.  I know I feel like I'm not there yet every other day.  I think living and learning must be a process, right?  Must be a journey without a destination.  You just keep on trying to figure it all out.

 

24 minutes ago, alfierose said:

This is what I mean about the glasses :lol::facepalm:

 

waterman 1.jpg

OMG!  You're right!! :lol:

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1 minute ago, MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle said:

He said that?!  There's an excuse if ever I heard one, as if he's not intelligent enough to sustain a verbal argument...as if he's some dumbshit.   Wow.  It's a good thing I can compartmentalise these guys or I really would be conflicted!  Axl just went down in my esteem, not that I held him in high regard to begin with.  The thing is...I separate the art from the person, which is problematic, I know because in fact, you can't truly separate art from person - one informs the other.  But I have monumental respect for Axl's work, for his musical achievements and his artistic vision.  I have never thought he'd be a great buddy or someone I'd want to hang with.  None of them.  Not even Duff.  I like their music, their stage personas, their personal style (and how photogenic they are because I'm into photography) and their crazy history.  But as people?  Well, Izzy started off as a heroin dealer, Duff was stealing cars and doing drugs, Steven was sleeping around with older women at the age of 13, Slash was shoplifting and causing trouble, Axl was...being Axl, destroying things.  That was never going to bode well for their adulthood.  

 

Nooooooo Axl never said that. This was Dennis Waterman, the Brit actor. Sorry if we've confused everyone, Axl is dodgy in his own way but I don't want false quotes attributed to him. 

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2 minutes ago, MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle said:

He said that?!  There's an excuse if ever I heard one, as if he's not intelligent enough to sustain a verbal argument...as if he's some dumbshit.   Wow.  It's a good thing I can compartmentalise these guys or I really would be conflicted!  Axl just went down in my esteem, not that I held him in high regard to begin with.  The thing is...I separate the art from the person, which is problematic, I know because in fact, you can't truly separate art from person - one informs the other.

Just for the record I think who said that mysoginistic quote was that english actor....not Axl....

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Just now, MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle said:

@alfierose  Ah gotcha.  I went back and read it properly. doh.  But I thought you were saying the Dennis looked like Axl, and I thought he did! :lol:

Yes he does it that particular pic.

Sorry everyone, bad form as a mod to come in and take the convo a bit off topic. I'll shut up now. :facepalm:

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1 hour ago, MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle said:

@Fang  That's an interesting topic for discussion.  My view is I'm not conflicted about being a woman GNR fan, I guess because I have no problem with their lyrics to begin with.  I'm not offended.  The lyrics reflect their worldview at the time and I'm ok with that.  Their lyrics certainly do not represent my worldview but I don't have to, nor do I want to listen to music that corresponds with only my own ideology.  I appreciate their (or Axl's) honesty even if it's uncomfortable or unpalatable because it shows who they really were at that time, not a sanitised version of themselves.  What you see is what you get type of thing.  Even that horrid lyric in Bad Obsession (one of my favourite songs) 'Called my mother, she's just a c now' is basically showing you inside a junkie mindset i.e. anyone who tries to stop them getting their fix is a c, no matter who they are to the junkie.  There's honesty in that and sometimes honesty is ugly.  Still a great song though!

That's how I basically feel as well. I'm aware they all were douchebags back then (or at least products of their environment and society), so these lyrics don't really shock or offend me. I tend to look at them from a "scientific" (that's not the right word for it, but I can't think of a better one at the moment) point of view as well. Like I find it interesting to think about how they ended up at a point where they didn't even hesitate to write lyrics like that, or to look at current day Duff squirm when he's asked about the ISE lyrics as he struggles to justify them.

That said, I don't really ever listen to ISE, UTLH, Back Off Bitch or OIAM. Mostly because I just don't like them though, musically speaking. The only GNR song with "questionable" or "offensive" lyrics that I enjoy listening to is Locomotive.

1 hour ago, killuridols said:

What is this protection thing you all talk about? :shrugs:

 

I will need an explanation because in my dictionary I can't associate GN'R with that feeling. I can't see any of those guys as victims or weak people who need protection. Especially from women. This is odd to me. I feel nothing like that about them. More so, I should be protected from them :rofl-lol:

It's the Sinead O'Connor thing again.

Looking at them in some pictures or videos from when they were young or reading about some things that happened appeals to my (and many other people's apparently) maternal instincts lol.

Axl brings it out the most in me. I can sort of feel the same way about all of them with certain pictures or stories, but with Axl it's like a feeling that is always there beneath the surface.

Even with current day Axl, I still sometimes get this feeling, while I don't feel anything like that at all anymore for Slash or Duff for example. Probably because they're grown men in full control of their lives, while Axl is still a mess and still weirdly child-like in many ways.

I've always felt that way btw. Even when I was like 14 or so, I somehow felt older than Axl and had that desire to protect him or wrap him in a blanket and feed him soup, as Sinead called it lol.

2 hours ago, killuridols said:

GN'R is extensively tied to my teenager memories and experiences. It is really hard to get rid of those feelings and attachments because in some ways, they've shaped my personality and who I am nowadays, so I wouldn't feel cool with myself if I decided to not listen to them anymore because of their perceived sexism.

 

 

Yes, I have that problem too. There's an emotional connection there that is hard to get rid of. I even learned English from reading Axl/GNR interviews and... other stuff :awesomeface:. If it hadn't been for Axl, I might not be posting or discussing here, might have studied different thing at university, etc.

1 hour ago, MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle said:

I am now off to dig through the archives and seek out this Sluff section.  Woot!  

I just checked and nearly all of my pics and GIFs are gone in that post :max: I hate photobucket so much :max::max::max:

I can try to re-upload them for you, but I don't know when I'll get around to that. I'm having a hell week (or rather 3 hell weeks) and hardly have time for anything at the moment.

 

20 hours ago, Tori72 said:
20 hours ago, Frey said:

Lol don't read the other thread then because over there I started this discussion by saying that I think Izzy aged the worst out of all of them.

:lol::rofl-lol:

:wow: You really think that? Wow. This world's a strange place.

I think so as well. IMO Izzy's the one who's showing the signs of the lifestyle they lived most clearly on his face. With all the drugs, alcohol (and nicotine) they were consuming, you'd expect them to look older than they actually are, but only Izzy looks older than he is to me. Slash and Axl (now again after many terrible years) look their age or slightly younger to me, Duff's face is aged like Izzy's, but he manages to distract from that and appear more youthful by other things, like his body and his magical hair :P (and I also agree with the people who mentioned fillers, botox etc., I've suspected that for a long time as well).

Steven aged surprisingly well too considering what he put himself through, but I was never attracted to Steven to begin with, so his looks aren't very important to me :smiley-confused2:

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle said:

I'm glad you said that! Thank you.  It shows I've made some fucking progress. :lol:  Which is reassuring to me that maybe weathering some of life's shit storms hasn't all been in vein. But don't wish you were less radical. :)  You are who you are.  That's why I love the discussion here.  I find it all incredibly enlightening getting all the different viewpoints.  Always something to learn.  I know I feel like I'm not there yet every other day.  I think living and learning must be a process, right?  Must be a journey without a destination.  You just keep on trying to figure it all out.

Ok, I won't wish on that then :ph34r:

I probably never will because I'm just... uh.... a crazy bitch :P

Yes, it is good to have all the different points of view in one thread from so many women around the world, different ages and different backgrouns. Our thread is the best :wub:

47 minutes ago, Lumikki said:

It's the Sinead O'Connor thing again.

Looking at them in some pictures or videos from when they were young or reading about some things that happened appeals to my (and many other people's apparently) maternal instincts lol.

Axl brings it out the most in me. I can sort of feel the same way about all of them with certain pictures or stories, but with Axl it's like a feeling that is always there beneath the surface.

Even with current day Axl, I still sometimes get this feeling, while I don't feel anything like that at all anymore for Slash or Duff for example. Probably because they're grown men in full control of their lives, while Axl is still a mess and still weirdly child-like in many ways.

I've always felt that way btw. Even when I was like 14 or so, I somehow felt older than Axl and had that desire to protect him or wrap him in a blanket and feed him soup, as Sinead called it lol.

Oh. Ok. It must be that... your maternal instincts.... I have NADA, ZERO, NONE of that so, loooooooooool, must be why I can't see them that way :ph34r:

I don't know.... it's hard for me though to feel like that about these guys who are way older than me and fully capable of taking care of themselves, Axl included. He's not a baby and he's not impared. He could do something to change his life if he wanted, so I'm having a hard time seeing him as a poor little helpless puppy... Truth is... he is not.

Knowing who are the real people in this world in need of those feelings from others, I can't help by finding silly this whole "protection" thing you guys talk about. I'm not trying to disrespect your feelings or anything. I'm sure you are pretty genuine about all this but from my perspective and my place, I couldn't waste one second pityng the rich people in this planet :shrugs:

 

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7 minutes ago, killuridols said:

Oh. Ok. It must be that... your maternal instincts.... I have NADA, ZERO, NONE of that so, loooooooooool, must be why I can't see them that way :ph34r:

I don't know.... it's hard for me though to feel like that about these guys who are way older than me and fully capable of taking care of themselves, Axl included. He's not a baby and he's not impared. He could do something to change his life if he wanted, so I'm having a hard seeing him as a poor little helpless puppy... Truth is... he is not.

Knowing who are the real people in this world in need of those feelings from others, I can't help by finding silly this whole "protection" thing you guys talk about. I'm not trying to disrespect your feelings or anything. I'm sure you are pretty genuine about all this but from my perspective and my place, I couldn't waste one second pityng the rich people in this planet :shrugs:

 

I have lots of it, especially as I get older and more and more feel like I'd want to have a baby, the whole thing seems to get worse in general.

And "poor little helpless puppy" isn't really it. It's more like I read about Axl (or Duff even) at a young age (like 4, or 16 or even 21 or whatever) and I just want to grab that child and protect it from the world. Or when I see Axl look particularly sad or lonely or whatever, I feel like giving him a hug or comforting him. I guess it's just empathy driven by maternal instinct at its core. Obviously I don't feel that way about Axl all the time, a lot of the time I also want to smack him or I mentally roll my eyes at him, but he definitely has the ability to bring that out in me sometimes.

And empathy is not a limited resource, so I see nothing wrong with also extending it to "rich people", especially since our guys specifically weren't always rich themselves. Besides, feelings aren't rational and you either have them for someone or something or you don't, so I lose no sleep over that kind of thing.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Lumikki said:

I have lots of it, especially as I get older and more and more feel like I'd want to have a baby, the whole thing seems to get worse in general.

And "poor little helpless puppy" isn't really it. It's more like I read about Axl (or Duff even) at a young age (like 4, or 16 or even 21 or whatever) and I just want to grab that child and protect it from the world. Or when I see Axl look particularly sad or lonely or whatever, I feel like giving him a hug or comforting him. I guess it's just empathy driven by maternal instinct at its core. Obviously I don't feel that way about Axl all the time, a lot of the time I also want to smack him or I mentally roll my eyes at him, but he definitely has the ability to bring that out in me sometimes.

And empathy is not a limited resource, so I see nothing wrong with also extending it to "rich people", especially since our guys specifically weren't always rich themselves. Besides, feelings aren't rational and you either have them for someone or something or you don't, so I lose no sleep over that kind of thing.

Aright. I've been told that feeling of wanting to be a mother can drive someone crazy.

I never had it. It's weird. Even when I was a child I remember once trying to connect to a younger kid than me, who was like a toddler and I fuckin' failed :lol: Maybe I've been traumatized since then...... Later in life I finally got into the "mom" mode or mood and I had it all planned, not so much convinced but I was there, ready..... booh again..... it all went to hell :facepalm: so now I am like, whatever, it must mean I'm not meant to be and I'm sure a kid will be better off without me. It's like I'm more worried about damaging a kid rather than having this "duty" ticked off my to-do list.

About empathy.... yeah, I can empathize with their personal stories but I've read and heard worst so it's like... also, if I knew that on top of all that suffering they ended up in the streets poor, killed or had committed suicide, I think I'd feel more sorry for them, but they turned out pretty good, for the crazy life they led when they were young, they were able to get out of all that and secure their lives and that's a relief to me.

Something in my mind tells me I don't have to worry about them because the past is gone and their present lives are fuckin' good, greater than mine, so....:shrugs:

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3 hours ago, Fang said:

@Alja and @killuridols I can relate to both of your perspectives. I disapprove of many things the guys have done and seek to learn why they do certsin things (though a factor is not the same as an excuse for the behavior). At the same time, I care about them. Something about Axl makes me protective, especially when I read bout his childhood. I finally defeated my obsession with marrying him though. Some people are problematic, and bad for women. I still see my first crush when I see him but am mature enougj to love at a distance.

Hello fellow stuck-in-work-till-morning ;)

3 hours ago, killuridols said:

Wow. That's a very mature approach to all of this. I admire you. I wish I wasn't so radical and that I could see it that way too.

Im not there yet. Maybe because I'm still conflicted with other things that happened to me in my life, with both men and women. Maybe someday I will grow to be better, lol.

What is this protection thing you all talk about? :shrugs:

I will need an explanation because in my dictionary I can't associate GN'R with that feeling. I can't see any of those guys as victims or weak people who need protection. Especially from women. This is odd to me. I feel nothing like that about them. More so, I should be protected from them :rofl-lol:

It`s a kind of interhuman magic and it`s completely irrational. I am more protective towards men, some of my other women colleagues are more protective towards women to say - we did not choose either. Even like tiny granny can make this effect. Generally, there are some people who have that certain something which generates this protective effect - it`s like you come to visit patient and virtually everyone is melted; they refer you or forward you that person as a gem (not a VIP, that`s different). These people are always humble and somehow shiny and make you feel good. They never beg for care. I can even turn everything I can upside down to get that person best available care I can (forward as a gem) without him/her ever knowing it... because. Meeting a person like this is heartwarming thing which you carry with you when everything sucks. 

We are all different and have different heartstrings to pull, so any kind of association is okay and there`s no way any rational explanation on some internet forum could change it. No one can untangle your heartstrings and most of all not by force, just you.

If I was in any particular situation, I would tell you (maybe, because it can be too private and I wouldn`t mock anyone to be forum "hero"). People react different on even individuals and it happened to me several times, that otherwise violent person (usually drunk or otherwise mentally committed) was nice and cooperative with me - and simultaneously fighting others. Sometimes I tell boys to hold back, me, tiny woman, and it works. My experience, my art of taming. So to say, I would have to use all my perception and skills to handle particular situation and still be in risk (like discussed video of after party Axl recently or so). 

Then there are other people who you protect just because everyone and everything protects them, even higher forces do so for sure. They are like an eye of the hurricane and you do this partially as a self-saving activity and prevention. 

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8 minutes ago, Alja said:

We are all different and have different heartstrings to pull, so any kind of association is okay and there`s no way any rational explanation on some internet forum could change it. No one can untangle your heartstrings and most of all not by force, just you.

I was just curious to know why these grown up rich men with no visible significant "needs" would unleash feelings of protection in their female fandom.

Maybe you're right and this can't be explained but I'm always trying to find explanations to things that seem odd to me (or feelings that I can't relate to) because I want to understand the human nature :shrugs:

In my case, I tend to feel protective or rather feel like a lawyer (lol) for people who are suffering injustice, violence, being violated in their rights, in their freedom, people who are really struggling in life.

Also, I think feelings of protection and empathy are two different things.

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3 hours ago, killuridols said:

Well, there are many things out there, most fall into the category of "rumor" since we don't have documents or more specific proof of it but, in a nutshell, I've heard of Izzy "selling women", Steven beating a girlfriend, Slash and Axl accused of raping a minor, Axl accused and taken to court for beating up both Erin and Stephanie, Axl accused of forcing sex on Sheila Kennedy, Slash making terrible sexist comments, and lately, this Roxana Shirazi revealed Dizzy forced her to have an abortion....among other things.

In my view, cheating is not violence against women. It goes both way, women cheat too so to me, that's not a "crime". What I don't justify or find hypocrite is when patriarchal fans call Stephanie Seymour a cheater and neglect the fact that Axl was cheating on her too but he made a fucking scandal when he discovered her doing it and fans support him with that bullshit. 

You forgot Izzy having sexual relations with minors (most notably Desi and also the manicurist technically), Axl pushing a girl down the stairs, Slash getting a blowjob from a child (though he claims he was mostly unconscious), Izzy saying he "understands" wife beating, Axl sexually assaulting Erin, Slash never intervening in DV situations he was witnessing, Slash being involved in a domestic violence incident with Perla himself, Slash and Axl's endless supply of sexist shirts,...

Disgusting sleazebags they were.

 

4 hours ago, killuridols said:

Lol, it does but I'm confused about the partner thing as well so I have no idea. Maybe this happened when he was with Sasha? :question:

Check out the link @Fang posted above. The review of that book by a feminist website exposes all the flaws in her writing.

I didn't even need to read the book to already raise doubts about where she's coming from and her usage of feminism as a tool to advertise her crap book. 

She doesn't come across to me as very smart and educated.... If she was, she wouldn't be reducing herself to a piece of meat those old rockers ate at backstage. She wouldn't base her writing career on books about sexual intercourse and predictable disappointment. 

I don't know which point she is trying to make with all this but serious feminism would never give it the time of day. 

I didn't say she comes across as smart and educated, I said she tries to come across as smart and educated.

About the dates... She says "a recent fling", but recent depends on when this was written. Is there any clue as to that? If it's an excerpt from her new book, she might have mentioned something like "I've been writing on my new book for two years".

 

1 hour ago, beautifulanddamned said:

If you are a rock n' roll fan, but won't listen to bands that have written misogynistic lyrics, or who have behaved in a misogynistic fashion in the past, you will have very little rock n' roll to listen to.  It sucks, but it is what it is.

I gotta stand up for Izzy here for a moment. Admittedly, there are pics of him where he looks 70. But then there will be a pic at the same event where he very much looks his age. Izzy has a very long face with pronounced features and nasolabial folds- which doesn't photograph very well, especially as you age.  There is a reason that most models have oval faces with small, flat features- it photographs better, regardless of the lighting. Axl actually has this kind of face. That's the reason Izzy always looks younger in the videos of him where he moves in and out of different kinds of light. He has also not clung to the leather pants, long hair look of his youth, which does age him but there is nothing wrong with looking and dressing like a 55 year old man when you are a 55 year old man. The suit Izzy wore on stage with Aerosmith is a more fashionable look than anything Slash, Duff and Axl have been able to put together in years. Slash letting his man-boobs fly or Axl wearing a shirt with a picture of a lady in a garbage can doesn't scream "youth" to me. It screams "old man trying too hard."

Hey, even I already admitted that Izzy's a better dresser than the other three stooges :P

 

19 minutes ago, purplestargirl said:

This is a cute video of Duff and Steven checking out GNR artwork in Japan. Even though he probably wasn't, Duff looks sober here.

Looking at Steven, you can tell he's on something by the glazed look in his eyes. He also sounds out of it.

Yeah, I remember this, it has been posted before.

There is also a longer version of that video that has Slash and Axl in it too.

Was kinda cool to see Slash and Axl looking at fan art.

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Frey said:

About the dates... She says "a recent fling", but recent depends on when this was written. Is there any clue as to that? If it's an excerpt from her new book, she might have mentioned something like "I've been writing on my new book for two years".

Wouldn't she be talking about Slash? Her story lines up with her passive aggressive tweets towards him.

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13 minutes ago, Frey said:

You forgot Izzy having sexual relations with minors (most notably Desi and also the manicurist technically), Axl pushing a girl down the stairs, Slash getting a blowjob from a child (though he claims he was mostly unconscious), Izzy saying he "understands" wife beating, Axl sexually assaulting Erin, Slash never intervening in DV situations he was witnessing, Slash being involved in a domestic violence incident with Perla himself, Slash and Axl's endless supply of sexist shirts,...

Disgusting sleazebags they were.

That's why I said in a nutshell.... I knew I couldn't cover the whole douchebaggery spectrum :lol:

Axl and Slash still wear sexist t-shirts and Slash posts sexist crap on his IG every single day so to me, your last sentence is, they are.

13 minutes ago, Frey said:

About the dates... She says "a recent fling", but recent depends on when this was written. Is there any clue as to that? If it's an excerpt from her new book, she might have mentioned something like "I've been writing on my new book for two years".

It was published yesterday. You can check the link I provided. But I don't know when it was written.....

14 minutes ago, Andy14 said:

Is this new? :ph34r:

20482643_305231839942260_7870428102772391936_n.jpg

Looks like new, yeah! :wow:

That's a new jacket, at least............ It is similar to the one he wore for AC/DC concerts but this one is all black.

I think I've seen it at Amiri's website.

 

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