GNR Women's Discussion - Part 2

[Tori72]

8 minutes ago, Frey said:

Sorry, I didn't see that first part of your post earlier, it really must have gotten eaten.

But yeah. @Lumikki and Sinead O' Connor will be here with the soup and blankets in a minute probably. I'm sure you can joint their club lol.

And well, Erin did say once that she felt sorry for him and wanted to "make it all better". Perfect set-up for a pretty co-dependent relationship there too- one person whose very emotionally needy and another one who's a care-taker. Iirc, Erin also mentioned having already been her ill mother's caretaker as a child or something, so she probably fell right back into that pattern again with Axl.

Not sure about what you mean by "we know he will do that or something else again" though. If you're referring to domestic violence, I wouldn't be so sure. As far as we know, he hasn't done anything like that in decades now.

---

I'm afraid I also don't understand what you mean by "Makes your fantasy conversation ever more plausible though ". How? Enlighten me please

Right 

What I meant with "we know he will do that or something else again" is that Erin took him back and held him and Axl seemed to be grateful for that. It sounds so touching when reading this but we know how he treated Erin only a couple of month/years later, so it is actually kind of sad.

Aaand "Makes your fantasy conversation ever more plausible though" is my totally logical assumption that as Axl and Izzy shared a room, the conversation between Izzy and Steven (and therefore the rest of your fantasy of course) has happend. Jeez, I tend to get more confusing when I have to explain myself. 

In short:

1. Axl is gonna treat Erin badly but sounds so cute in that letter

2. Axl and Izzy shared a room and therefore Slaxl has been proved.

Right? Right! 

Edited April 30, 2017 by Tori72

[Ratam]

31 minutes ago, Tori72 said:

Right 

What I meant with "we know he will do that or something else again" is that Erin took him back and held him and Axl seemed to be grateful for that. It sounds so touching when reading this but we know how he treated Erin only a couple of month/years later, so it is actually kind of sad.

Aaand "Makes your fantasy conversation ever more plausible though" is my totally logical assumption that as Axl and Izzy shared a room, the conversation between Izzy and Steven (and therefore the rest of your fantasy of course) has happend. Jeez, I tend to get more confusing when I have to explain myself. 

In short:

1. Axl is gonna treat Erin badly but sounds so cute in that letter

2. Axl and Izzy shared a room and therefore Slaxl has been proved.

Right? Right! 

????????????

[Alja]

But good news is that Slash is no more alone

 

 

[killuridols]

1 hour ago, Alja said:

But if you are too much sober about spirituality and soul wandering and things, it does have some bright moments, but as a whole it`s complete fairy-tale to soothe aching soul with bullshit detector off. Sorry for spoilers. Johnatan Livingstone Seagull is good to start with, it`s pretty short. 

I want to read it to understand more things about Axl. I couldn't care less about the book or the story, lol. 

2 hours ago, Alja said:

These things were just between two people. Some of them are incredibly beattiful because how simple, civil and vulnerable they are. You never got this with any professional shooting or interview or anything.

This is partially true.

Their relationship was public and Axl has used Erin, her name, her image, her love, her physical appearance and his relationship with her and made a PRODUCT out of it. Some people call it art, which is also true, but if we're gonna get technical then please let's be honest about it.

Maybe you have forgotten that Erin Everly is the main character and inspiration of Sweet Child O'Mine, Estranged, Breakdown, the last verse of November Rain, probably This I Love and many other songs people don't even know about. Axl and Erin's relationship is depicted in the Don't Cry video, Estranged video and November Rain video. He also put her in the SCOM video and the censored It's So Easy video.

He's talked about Erin and the intimacy of the couple in numerous interviews, videos and what not.

Most of what he's shown and shared about her with his fans and the general public I consider it as beautiful as these private letters. Tell me what's more vulnerable than the lyrics to Estranged.

2 hours ago, Alja said:

I cannot see anything else than coldly calculated revenge to hurt the most vulnerable spot. I have no idea to how deepest rock bottom you must fail to do something like this to anyone (including worst enemies). Rip it up. Burn it. Lock it. Bury it... but this?!

You can only see that because you basically know nothing about it.

How in the hell does this qualify as "coldly calculated revenge"? 

It is a couple letters and some pictures, FFS!! 

2 hours ago, Frey said:

I wasn't suggesting that we shouldn't post/discuss these things (I'm the last person who would argue for censorship here and that stuff is all around the internet for anyone interested to look it up anyway), I was just expressing my own personal squeamishness at seeing all these very emotional and private things written down. Feels a bit voyeuristic to me when I read it. Or maybe that's just my inner dudebro, who gets all uncomfortable at all this feelings talk

I know you weren't. I wasn't implying that either, lol.

I have never felt this way basically because voyeurism is the act of spying someone without their knowledge and these things are out in the open for everybody to see. Also I have not broke into anyone's home to obtain these things, so there's no guilt or illegal with this. Fans have purchased these items and probably TB too, so there's really nothing bad about it. 

Or maybe I am used to this since I have also read the private letters of Proust, Kafka, Freud, Virginia Woolf and other people who have had their handwritten letters even published in books by their friends and relatives 

[killuridols]

Duff is adorable!!!!!   

 

 

[Alja]

3 minutes ago, killuridols said:

I want to read it to understand more things about Axl. I couldn't care less about the book or the story, lol. 

This is partially true.

Their relationship was public and Axl has used Erin, her name, her image, her love, her physical appearance and his relationship with her and made a PRODUCT out of it. Some people call it art, which is also true, but if we're gonna get technical then please let's be honest about it.

Maybe you have forgotten that Erin Everly is the main character and inspiration of Sweet Child O'Mine, Estranged, Breakdown, the last verse of November Rain, probably This I Love and many other songs people don't even know about. Axl and Erin's relationship is depicted in the Don't Cry video, Estranged video and November Rain video. He also put her in the SCOM video and the censored It's So Easy video.

He's talked about Erin and the intimacy of the couple in numerous interviews, videos and what not.

Most of what he's shown and shared about her with his fans and the general public I consider it as beautiful as these private letters. Tell me what's more vulnerable than the lyrics to Estranged.

You can only see that because you basically know nothing about it.

How in the hell does this qualify as "coldly calculated revenge"? 

It is a couple letters and some pictures, FFS!! 

I know you weren't. I wasn't implying that either, lol.

I have never felt this way basically because voyeurism is the act of spying someone without their knowledge and these things are out in the open for everybody to see. Also I have not broke into anyone's home to obtain these things, so there's no guilt or illegal with this. Fans have purchased these items and probably TB too, so there's really nothing bad about it. 

Or maybe I am used to this since I have also read the private letters of Proust, Kafka, Freud, Virginia Woolf and other people who have had their handwritten letters even published in books by their friends and relatives 

You know little difference between us two? I talk about how I perceive things, not any kind of absolute truth.

I won`t argue that Estrange is strong and intimate piece of art, but still, songs I take as Axl talking about himself and his point of view. Also, if you mention people & so in art, it`s a kind of unicorns, an ideal form of something, feeling of something. It`s not real, it`s superior real, it`s art. Arguing with me what I feel more intimate - a song or a civil private letter of ex - feel free, but it`s ridiculous. If someone dug these letters after everyone involved is either dead or with permission, OK, then it`s not a violent act against letter author for me. Voyeurism for me is more about extent of intimacy you are following than actual criminal act of illegally spying someone or obtaining things. 

You know what? If you are petit size and you hate someone or just want to provoke for whatever reason, it`s quiet easy to troll quick-tempered big(ger) guy into physical attack or serious outburst. You know what? You won because you are petit and he is big strong violent woman beater. Ideally to be seen in public or with some pretty evidence. Thin ice, the thing is to maintain situation so noone gets hurt. Worse is if you lost your nerve and balance, they you can end up seriously hurt. I was not there and not all outbursts are predictable or manageable, but violence is not always only that visible, destroying power. If you think that you can hurt someone just by beating him up, your imagination is seriously weak. 

It`s on individual decision of an adult person, if it`s worthy to stay in that kind of violent environment and relationship. 

[Tori72]

2 minutes ago, Alja said:

You know little difference between us two? I talk about how I perceive things, not any kind of absolute truth.

I won`t argue that Estrange is strong and intimate piece of art, but still, songs I take as Axl talking about himself and his point of view. Also, if you mention people & so in art, it`s a kind of unicorns, an ideal form of something, feeling of something. It`s not real, it`s superior real, it`s art. Arguing with me what I feel more intimate - a song or a civil private letter of ex - feel free, but it`s ridiculous. If someone dug these letters after everyone involved is either dead or with permission, OK, then it`s not a violent act against letter author for me. Voyeurism for me is more about extent of intimacy you are following than actual criminal act of illegally spying someone or obtaining things. 

You know what? If you are petit size and you hate someone or just want to provoke for whatever reason, it`s quiet easy to troll quick-tempered big(ger) guy into physical attack or serious outburst. You know what? You won because you are petit and he is big strong violent woman beater. Ideally to be seen in public or with some pretty evidence. Thin ice, the thing is to maintain situation so noone gets hurt. Worse is if you lost your nerve and balance, they you can end up seriously hurt. I was not there and not all outbursts are predictable or manageable, but violence is not always only that visible, destroying power. If you think that you can hurt someone just by beating him up, your imagination is seriously weak. 

It`s on individual decision of an adult person, if it`s worthy to stay in that kind of violent environment and relationship. 

Are you seriously saying that Erin has some responsibility in being beaten by Axl? Or did I get something wrong? 

[killuridols]

4 minutes ago, Alja said:

You know little difference between us two? I talk about how I perceive things, not any kind of absolute truth.

Everything I talked about in my previous response is FACT. I have a source, you don't.

6 minutes ago, Alja said:

I won`t argue that Estrange is strong and intimate piece of art, but still, songs I take as Axl talking about himself and his point of view. Also, if you mention people & so in art, it`s a kind of unicorns, an ideal form of something, feeling of something. It`s not real, it`s superior real, it`s art. Arguing with me what I feel more intimate - a song or a civil private letter of ex - feel free, but it`s ridiculous

Only Axl can have a saying or a point of view in this relationship? Erin's point does not matter, right?

I see...

It's not true she doesn't have blue eyes then and that she's not the person in SCOM? 

If you say things here they became debate material so you may think it is ridiculous to argue your opinions but that's what a forum is for.

12 minutes ago, Alja said:

You know what? If you are petit size and you hate someone or just want to provoke for whatever reason, it`s quiet easy to troll quick-tempered big(ger) guy into physical attack or serious outburst. You know what? You won because you are petit and he is big strong violent woman beater. Ideally to be seen in public or with some pretty evidence. Thin ice, the thing is to maintain situation so noone gets hurt. Worse is if you lost your nerve and balance, they you can end up seriously hurt. I was not there and not all outbursts are predictable or manageable, but violence is not always only that visible, destroying power. If you think that you can hurt someone just by beating him up, your imagination is seriously weak. 

Huh? 

I guess I don't even want to know what all of this nonsense really means 

14 minutes ago, Alja said:

It`s on individual decision of an adult person, if it`s worthy to stay in that kind of violent environment and relationship. 

What you are saying here is very ignorant. A slap in the face to the victims of domestic abuse. 

[Alja]

Just now, Tori72 said:

Are you seriously saying that Erin has some responsibility in being beaten by Axl? Or did I get something wrong? 

I haven`t been there and I cannot say what happened each particular time. All I said is that I know that it`s not that difficult to troll someone into outburst from a position of someone who is smaller and weaker. It`s best done if you want to end up with someone and seriously damage his reputation. At the end, most people would judge him, not me. We all have ways how to hurt others. Some are just more sophisticated.

I know few people who have these wild berserk outbursts, even 6 years old is dangerous. The only way is to run like hell and hide until that person exhausts. Then comes vicious circle of guilty and sorrow and until someone leaves the circle or the volatile one learns to control, it will be bad.

[Tori72]

Just now, Alja said:

I haven`t been there and I cannot say what happened each particular time. All I said is that I know that it`s not that difficult to troll someone into outburst from a position of someone who is smaller and weaker. It`s best done if you want to end up with someone and seriously damage his reputation. At the end, most people would judge him, not me. We all have ways how to hurt others. Some are just more sophisticated.

I know few people who have these wild berserk outbursts, even 6 years old is dangerous. The only way is to run like hell and hide until that person exhausts. Then comes vicious circle of guilty and sorrow and until someone leaves the circle or the volatile one learns to control, it will be bad.

What you're doing here is victim blaming and I can't even begin to tell you how ignorant and arrogant that is. Nothing ever excuses violence and abuse. Nothing. It's the person who is violent that is responsible, not the other one. No matter how they act, what they wear or if they're sober or not - or whatever.

Jeez. 

[killuridols]

4 minutes ago, Alja said:

I haven`t been there and I cannot say what happened each particular time. All I said is that I know that it`s not that difficult to troll someone into outburst from a position of someone who is smaller and weaker. It`s best done if you want to end up with someone and seriously damage his reputation. At the end, most people would judge him, not me. We all have ways how to hurt others. Some are just more so

Stop it.

[Alja]

14 minutes ago, killuridols said:

Everything I talked about in my previous response is FACT. I have a source, you don't.

Only Axl can have a saying or a point of view in this relationship? Erin's point does not matter, right?

I see...

It's not true she doesn't have blue eyes then and that she's not the person in SCOM? 

If you say things here they became debate material so you may think it is ridiculous to argue your opinions but that's what a forum is for.

Huh? 

I guess I don't even want to know what all of this nonsense really means 

What you are saying here is very ignorant. A slap in the face to the victims of domestic abuse. 

Characters present in art are fictional. Even a real, living person can become a kind of fictional character after he/she is not present for longer (for example husband of widowed woman). It`s art, it`s ideal form of something. That`s why people feel it as "their" sweet child, that`s a kind of secret of successful art. Artist is a person who can collect own experience and make it something universal. The trigger is not important anymore.

People stay in weird and/or abusive relationships and you can`t do much (or, most of time, anything) with it from the outside. The only who can slay the dragon is themselves. You can be even in abusive relationship with yourself. They will tell you ridiculous reasons why they continue in it, sometimes for decades. I also know different kinds of abusive relationships around me and you know what?  Even if you try to open their eyes, you end up as the bad one. Even if you are also affected by that rotten relationship. Position of victim is nice role but you get tired of this poor persona victimizing oneself drama after some time. There are two for tango, always.

Edited April 30, 2017 by Alja

[MillionsOfSpiders]

Just checked the date... phew... for a minute there I thought we'd gone back to the 1950s. 

[janrichmond]

3 minutes ago, Alja said:

Position of victim is nice one but you get tired of this poor persona drama after some time. 

Are you serious?? I really hope you are just having trouble translating what you are trying to say.

 

2 minutes ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

Just checked the date... phew... for a minute there I thought we'd gone back to the 1950s. 

Get back to the kitchen sink and make your husband his dinner!! 

[MillionsOfSpiders]

7 minutes ago, janrichmond said:

Are you serious?? I really hope you are just having trouble translating what you are trying to say.

 

Get back to the kitchen sink and make your husband his dinner!! 

I know, he'll be hungry by now cos he's only just got back from the pub. It'll be my own silly fault if he gives me a few slaps 

[Alja]

3 minutes ago, janrichmond said:

Are you serious?? I really hope you are just having trouble translating what you are trying to say.

 

No, I mean it word to word. If someone just whine and does nothing else, it`s a major energy sucker after some time. If it`s your relative, it`s kind of worse, but you can still cut yourself, if that particular person (or even the other one, if he/she is willing to change, just does not know the way) is not able to cut that relationship or do something to change.

[killuridols]

3 minutes ago, Alja said:

People stay in weird and/or abusive relationships and you can`t do much (or, most of time, anything) with it from the outside. The only who can slay the dragon is themselves. You can be even in abusive relationship with yourself. They will tell you ridiculous reasons why they continue in it, sometimes for decades. I also know different kinds of abusive relationships around me and you know what?  Even if you try to open their eyes, you end up as the bad one. Even if you are also affected by that rotten relationship. Position of victim is nice one but you get tired of this poor persona drama after some time. 

We all can do something about it. From women and men stop spreading ignorant comments and notions like yours, to the government of each country doing what they  have to do to protect the victims of abuse, who are not just the women but also their children.

The cases of domestic violence are as diverse as couples there are in this world. Your narrow view surely stems from ignoring the fact that this problem is transversal and it affects women of all races, nationalities, ages, social class and education level.

No one is in an abusive relationship because they want to. The reasons to stay may vary from not having financial independence to leave the abusive partner or because the victim is psychologically damaged and can barely see the way out.

Others who try to leave find an end outside the relationship when the abuser will not accept their victim has left and chase them for years until they finally kill her (and sometimes kill themselves after they do it).

You don't even need to be in a long time relationship to be the victim of domestic violence. The mere fact of being beaten up by a man because you are a woman is all there is to know.

Please, don't get offended, but your opinion on this subject is very primitive, limited and hurtful for anyone who's been or is in a situation like this.

[janrichmond]

3 minutes ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

I know, he'll be hungry by now cos he's only just got back from the pub. It'll be my own silly fault if he gives me a few slaps 

[Tori72]

So if the victim is just whining and not able to help her/himself then that really sucks all the energy out of the abuse one.

Just stop it, @Alja ok?!

 

Edited April 30, 2017 by Tori72

[janrichmond]

7 minutes ago, Alja said:

No, I mean it word to word. If someone just whine and does nothing else, it`s a major energy sucker after some time. If it`s your relative, it`s kind of worse, but you can still cut yourself, if that particular person (or even the other one, if he/she is willing to change, just does not know the way) is not able to cut that relationship or do something to change.

Oh i am so sorry for you, your beaten family and friends must me soo fucking tiring for you to be around.

With friends like you ..... who needs fucking enemies?

Edited April 30, 2017 by janrichmond

[killuridols]

4 minutes ago, Alja said:

No, I mean it word to word. If someone just whine and does nothing else, it`s a major energy sucker after some time. If it`s your relative, it`s kind of worse, but you can still cut yourself, if that particular person (or even the other one, if he/she is willing to change, just does not know the way) is not able to cut that relationship or do something to change.

You can get out when you have the means to do it. If you have a job and your payment is good enough so that you can live on your own. Also when you have a family and friends who can support you and help you get out of it.

But have you ever dared to look outside the silly example you are giving here to think about the women who are poor? The one who are poor and have 1, 2, 3, 4 or more children? Where do they go when they want to leave? How do they maintain their 5 children? A person who is psychologically damaged like that can barely find or keep a job!

Have you ever thought of those guys who will not leave you alone even when you've made it clear you don't want them in your life??? Do you have any idea how far a crazy man can go when he's determined he's going to kill you??

Do you have the slightest clue of how many women die at the hands of their partner in one of those outbursts and occasional fights?? Do you know how many women have died in the street, at the shopping mall, inside a car, at a public square, several months or years after they've left their abusive partner because that person could never overcome his obsession and he chased his ex until he found her and didn't hesitate in pulling a gun and kill her in front of hundreds of people?

Do you have any idea how many men have killed their wives or girlfriends in front of their children AND AFTER THAT ALSO killed their children?

If you were such a genius as you always claim to be, you wouldn't be so limited to think of an ideal scenario where there's a whining lazy victim and the other person is just a sick guy who gets "trolled" by an annoying woman. If things were as simple as that, then we wouldn't have the statistics we have regarding domestic violence.

[Whiskey Rose]

I'm wondering if @Alja is just trying to say, that someone who always talks about their abusive relationship, but never takes any steps to leave, can be frustrating for friends and relatives, who have on more than one occasion, provided a safe place to stay, money, job, etc., and it was not accepted, and the abused one keeps choosing to stay, or even accepted the help, and then they go back. But still calls people at all hours of the day and night to talk about the latest craziness they have been through. It CAN get frustrating, it can. I have been in this position of listener and helper myself, with nothing changing. You try and be as supportive as possible, because you know it is not their fault, that they have been emotionally damaged, but at some point, at some point, they must take steps to help themselves. And this will only happen when they decide it's enough, not when you do. So in the meantime, as frustrating as it can be, all you can do is be a supportive ear. 

I have no idea how this pertains to Erin, it just seems this has spiralled way beyond. 

[Alja]

 

5 minutes ago, killuridols said:

We all can do something about it. From women and men stop spreading ignorant comments and notions like yours, to the government of each country doing what they  have to do to protect the victims of abuse, who are not just the women but also their children.

The cases of domestic violence are as diverse as couples there are in this world. Your narrow view surely stems from ignoring the fact that this problem is transversal and it affects women of all races, nationalities, ages, social class and education level.

No one is in an abusive relationship because they want to. The reasons to stay may vary from not having financial independence to leave the abusive partner or because the victim is psychologically damaged and can barely see the way out.

Others who try to leave find an end outside the relationship when the abuser will not accept their victim has left and chase them for years until they finally kill her (and sometimes kill themselves after they do it).

You don't even need to be in a long time relationship to be the victim of domestic violence. The mere fact of being beaten up by a man because you are a woman is all there is to know.

Please, don't get offended, but your opinion on this subject is very primitive, limited and hurtful for anyone who's been or is in a situation like this.

Me, personally, I am from a broken family, violence was "just" economic. I saw even men as a victim of physical abuse (not speaking about children, elders or disabled). People making up fairytales about what happened to not to admit that there is something sick or something serious enough to be investigated by police and that the violent person can even be jailed. They even would have sympathy for him not to be jailed. They would even care about that person after failed attack. Here where I live are shelters for runaway women with kids. Ridiculous thing is that some of them invite men from whom they ran away, even primarily these shelters are ex-directory to offer protection. 

There are many people who ended sick relationships and with risk of being poor, alone or even killed, they ended it because they did not want to be in it anymore. Length of relationship is irrelevant. These are the people who you could actually help and who need sources and protection in case of for example stalking (or economic situation or whatever). You can never help someone who is not willing to help oneself or see even direct evidence. And just daily whining about how poor and abused he/she is and then return to that environment. Not all relationships are explicitly violent, there are many ways how people abuse others.

Still speaking about healthy adults. It does not mean you save all of them or that any murder inside relationship will not happen anymore.

[killuridols]

17 minutes ago, Whiskey Rose said:

I'm wondering if @Alja is just trying to say, that someone who always talks about their abusive relationship, but never takes any steps to leave, can be frustrating for friends and relatives, who have on more than one occasion, provided a safe place to stay, money, job, etc., and it was not accepted, and the abused one keeps choosing to stay, or even accepted the help, and then they go back. But still calls people at all hours of the day and night to talk about the latest craziness they have been through. It CAN get frustrating, it can. I have been in this position of listener and helper myself, with nothing changing. You try and be as supportive as possible, because you know it is not their fault, that they have been emotionally damaged, but at some point, at some point, they must take steps to help themselves. And this will only happen when they decide it's enough, not when you do. So in the meantime, as frustrating as it can be, all you can do is be a supportive ear. 

I have no idea how this pertains to Erin, it just seems this has spiralled way beyond. 

A person like that is obviously going through emotional problems and they cannot make right decisions on their own. This is when family and friends (and even neighbors) have to take a step further and stop being a mere listener or witness of the situation and get professional help, same way you would if someone was having a heart attack or just been diagnosed with cancer.

It is in this moment when the state has to intervene and isolate the victim from the abuser and also take care of the abuser.

I know that sometimes even with the help of the state, women end up more beaten up and killed. But we can't be sending a message where victims are idiots who don't want to be helped and the abuser is just a sick guy who can't help himself. It is not always that case.

The more we raise awareness that it is not ok to be beaten up by your husband, boyfriends or any man at all, the more women will be willing to speak up and ask for help and not be afraid to leave. But there is also have to be a support system where they can be safe from the abuser because we know the abuser is sick and. obsessed and the violence, most of the times, do not end up with the victim leaving the house. It continues outside and everywhere that person goes if the abuser is left on his own.

[Whiskey Rose]

15 minutes ago, killuridols said:

A person like that is obviously going through emotional problems and they cannot make right decisions on their own. This is when family and friends (and even neighbors) have to take a step further and stop being a mere listener or witness of the situation and get professional help, same way you would if someone was having a heart attack or just been diagnosed with cancer.

It is in this moment when the state has to intervene and isolate the victim from the abuser and also take care of the abuser.

I know that sometimes even with the help of the state, women end up more beaten up and killed. But we can't be sending a message where victims are idiots who don't want to be helped and the abuser is just a sick guy who can't help himself. It is not always that case.

The more we raise awareness that it is not ok to be beaten up by your husband, boyfriends or any man at all, the more women will be willing to speak up and ask for help and not be afraid to leave. But there is also have to be a support system where they can be safe from the abuser because we know the abuser is sick and. obsessed and the violence, most of the times, do not end up with the victim leaving the house. It continues outside and everywhere that person goes if the abuser is left on his own.

If only it were that simple, but it's just not. You can't "make" a woman leave if she doesn't want to. I don't know what it's like there, but yes, the police can charge a man, and he spend some time in jail, but then often the woman feels guilty because "she" sent him there. And then feels resentment towards the people who either called the police, or encouraged her to do so. There are so many psychological issues and dynamics at play here..I know I don't have to outline them, as you seem well aware of the human condition. Bottom line, you can give every opportunity to an individual, but you can't make them accept them until they are ready.

It's scary, over here the shelters for women and children are always nearly at full capacity..there are waiting lists! In this day and age. It's mindblowing that this issue is still so prevalent.

As to your last point, that the abuser will not let go and follow..yes, true in some cases, but not all. Also that they will just find someone else and do the same thing to. Which shows that we also need more services for perpetrators of abuse, so that they can get some help themselves, to stop the cycle. Such as that program @millionsofspiders spoke about in the UK.