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GNR Women's Discussion - Part 2

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7 minutes ago, janrichmond said:

Are you serious?? I really hope you are just having trouble translating what you are trying to say.

 

Get back to the kitchen sink and make your husband his dinner!! :lol::lol:

I know, he'll be hungry by now cos he's only just got back from the pub. It'll be my own silly fault if he gives me a few slaps :rolleyes:

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3 minutes ago, janrichmond said:

Are you serious?? I really hope you are just having trouble translating what you are trying to say.

 

No, I mean it word to word. If someone just whine and does nothing else, it`s a major energy sucker after some time. If it`s your relative, it`s kind of worse, but you can still cut yourself, if that particular person (or even the other one, if he/she is willing to change, just does not know the way) is not able to cut that relationship or do something to change.

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3 minutes ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

I know, he'll be hungry by now cos he's only just got back from the pub. It'll be my own silly fault if he gives me a few slaps :rolleyes:

Image result for 1950s housewife

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So if the victim is just whining and not able to help her/himself then that really sucks all the energy out of the abuse one.

Just stop it, @Alja ok?!

 

Edited by Tori72

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4 minutes ago, Alja said:

No, I mean it word to word. If someone just whine and does nothing else, it`s a major energy sucker after some time. If it`s your relative, it`s kind of worse, but you can still cut yourself, if that particular person (or even the other one, if he/she is willing to change, just does not know the way) is not able to cut that relationship or do something to change.

You can get out when you have the means to do it. If you have a job and your payment is good enough so that you can live on your own. Also when you have a family and friends who can support you and help you get out of it.

But have you ever dared to look outside the silly example you are giving here to think about the women who are poor? The one who are poor and have 1, 2, 3, 4 or more children? Where do they go when they want to leave? How do they maintain their 5 children? A person who is psychologically damaged like that can barely find or keep a job!

Have you ever thought of those guys who will not leave you alone even when you've made it clear you don't want them in your life??? Do you have any idea how far a crazy man can go when he's determined he's going to kill you??

Do you have the slightest clue of how many women die at the hands of their partner in one of those outbursts and occasional fights?? Do you know how many women have died in the street, at the shopping mall, inside a car, at a public square, several months or years after they've left their abusive partner because that person could never overcome his obsession and he chased his ex until he found her and didn't hesitate in pulling a gun and kill her in front of hundreds of people?

Do you have any idea how many men have killed their wives or girlfriends in front of their children AND AFTER THAT ALSO killed their children?

If you were such a genius as you always claim to be, you wouldn't be so limited to think of an ideal scenario where there's a whining lazy victim and the other person is just a sick guy who gets "trolled" by an annoying woman. If things were as simple as that, then we wouldn't have the statistics we have regarding domestic violence.

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5 minutes ago, killuridols said:

We all can do something about it. From women and men stop spreading ignorant comments and notions like yours, to the government of each country doing what they  have to do to protect the victims of abuse, who are not just the women but also their children.

The cases of domestic violence are as diverse as couples there are in this world. Your narrow view surely stems from ignoring the fact that this problem is transversal and it affects women of all races, nationalities, ages, social class and education level.

No one is in an abusive relationship because they want to. The reasons to stay may vary from not having financial independence to leave the abusive partner or because the victim is psychologically damaged and can barely see the way out.

Others who try to leave find an end outside the relationship when the abuser will not accept their victim has left and chase them for years until they finally kill her (and sometimes kill themselves after they do it).

You don't even need to be in a long time relationship to be the victim of domestic violence. The mere fact of being beaten up by a man because you are a woman is all there is to know.

Please, don't get offended, but your opinion on this subject is very primitive, limited and hurtful for anyone who's been or is in a situation like this.

Me, personally, I am from a broken family, violence was "just" economic. I saw even men as a victim of physical abuse (not speaking about children, elders or disabled). People making up fairytales about what happened to not to admit that there is something sick or something serious enough to be investigated by police and that the violent person can even be jailed. They even would have sympathy for him not to be jailed. They would even care about that person after failed attack. Here where I live are shelters for runaway women with kids. Ridiculous thing is that some of them invite men from whom they ran away, even primarily these shelters are ex-directory to offer protection. 

There are many people who ended sick relationships and with risk of being poor, alone or even killed, they ended it because they did not want to be in it anymore. Length of relationship is irrelevant. These are the people who you could actually help and who need sources and protection in case of for example stalking (or economic situation or whatever). You can never help someone who is not willing to help oneself or see even direct evidence. And just daily whining about how poor and abused he/she is and then return to that environment. Not all relationships are explicitly violent, there are many ways how people abuse others.

Still speaking about healthy adults. It does not mean you save all of them or that any murder inside relationship will not happen anymore.

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17 minutes ago, Whiskey Rose said:

I'm wondering if @Alja is just trying to say, that someone who always talks about their abusive relationship, but never takes any steps to leave, can be frustrating for friends and relatives, who have on more than one occasion, provided a safe place to stay, money, job, etc., and it was not accepted, and the abused one keeps choosing to stay, or even accepted the help, and then they go back. But still calls people at all hours of the day and night to talk about the latest craziness they have been through. It CAN get frustrating, it can. I have been in this position of listener and helper myself, with nothing changing. You try and be as supportive as possible, because you know it is not their fault, that they have been emotionally damaged, but at some point, at some point, they must take steps to help themselves. And this will only happen when they decide it's enough, not when you do. So in the meantime, as frustrating as it can be, all you can do is be a supportive ear. 

I have no idea how this pertains to Erin, it just seems this has spiralled way beyond. 

A person like that is obviously going through emotional problems and they cannot make right decisions on their own. This is when family and friends (and even neighbors) have to take a step further and stop being a mere listener or witness of the situation and get professional help, same way you would if someone was having a heart attack or just been diagnosed with cancer.

It is in this moment when the state has to intervene and isolate the victim from the abuser and also take care of the abuser.

I know that sometimes even with the help of the state, women end up more beaten up and killed. But we can't be sending a message where victims are idiots who don't want to be helped and the abuser is just a sick guy who can't help himself. It is not always that case.

The more we raise awareness that it is not ok to be beaten up by your husband, boyfriends or any man at all, the more women will be willing to speak up and ask for help and not be afraid to leave. But there is also have to be a support system where they can be safe from the abuser because we know the abuser is sick and. obsessed and the violence, most of the times, do not end up with the victim leaving the house. It continues outside and everywhere that person goes if the abuser is left on his own.

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15 minutes ago, killuridols said:

A person like that is obviously going through emotional problems and they cannot make right decisions on their own. This is when family and friends (and even neighbors) have to take a step further and stop being a mere listener or witness of the situation and get professional help, same way you would if someone was having a heart attack or just been diagnosed with cancer.

It is in this moment when the state has to intervene and isolate the victim from the abuser and also take care of the abuser.

I know that sometimes even with the help of the state, women end up more beaten up and killed. But we can't be sending a message where victims are idiots who don't want to be helped and the abuser is just a sick guy who can't help himself. It is not always that case.

The more we raise awareness that it is not ok to be beaten up by your husband, boyfriends or any man at all, the more women will be willing to speak up and ask for help and not be afraid to leave. But there is also have to be a support system where they can be safe from the abuser because we know the abuser is sick and. obsessed and the violence, most of the times, do not end up with the victim leaving the house. It continues outside and everywhere that person goes if the abuser is left on his own.

If only it were that simple, but it's just not. You can't "make" a woman leave if she doesn't want to. I don't know what it's like there, but yes, the police can charge a man, and he spend some time in jail, but then often the woman feels guilty because "she" sent him there. And then feels resentment towards the people who either called the police, or encouraged her to do so. There are so many psychological issues and dynamics at play here..I know I don't have to outline them, as you seem well aware of the human condition. Bottom line, you can give every opportunity to an individual, but you can't make them accept them until they are ready.

It's scary, over here the shelters for women and children are always nearly at full capacity..there are waiting lists! In this day and age. It's mindblowing that this issue is still so prevalent.

As to your last point, that the abuser will not let go and follow..yes, true in some cases, but not all. Also that they will just find someone else and do the same thing to. Which shows that we also need more services for perpetrators of abuse, so that they can get some help themselves, to stop the cycle. Such as that program @millionsofspiders spoke about in the UK.

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31 minutes ago, Alja said:

You can never help someone who is not willing to help oneself or see even direct evidence. And just daily whining about how poor and abused he/she is and then return to that environment. Not all relationships are explicitly violent, there are many ways how people abuse others.

 

3 minutes ago, Whiskey Rose said:

If only it were that simple, but it's just not. You can't "make" a woman leave if she doesn't want to. I don't know what it's like there, but yes, the police can charge a man, and he spend some time in jail, but then often the woman feels guilty because "she" sent him there. And then feels resentment towards the people who either called the police, or encouraged her to do so.

What I'm saying it's not simple since most people have the same opinions than you and @Alja about women who are in this situation and they prefer to not get involved, so it is unusual someone other than the victim and maybe their direct family will move a finger for them.

Women who dont want to be helped just do not talk about it at all and when someone suspects, they will deny it. Others hide it because they fear their abuser will find out and will react even worse towards them and/or their children.

The ones who do talk about it but have a hard time making a decision to leave the abusive relationship are indeed looking for help in some way, but there might be women who do not fully understand the seriousness of their problem, or are too scared of the future, or cannot see a clear way out and think there is no other chance for them, which could also be true, and they decide to stay and bear with it until it becomes unbearable.

These issues have to be treated so the women do not return to the abusive relationships and also do not engage in new ones! There's a whole educational dimension to this problem too that is related to the way we raise our daughters and our sons. We raise little girls to only aim for getting a husband and having children so they grow up to only care about exterior appearance and being successful among men.

I have a hard time believing most women in this situation don't want to be helped and I do believe it is mostly society, the patriarchal system and flawed legislation the ones who do not want to deal with domestic abuse because they think people are able to get in and out of relationships just like that.

45 minutes ago, Whiskey Rose said:

As to your last point, that the abuser will not let go and follow..yes, true in some cases, but not all. Also that they will just find someone else and do the same thing to. Which shows that we also need more services for perpetrators of abuse, so that they can get some help themselves, to stop the cycle. Such as that program @millionsofspiders spoke about in the UK.

The abuser is a sick person who wants to exercise power over their victim and they will never stop. A victim can run away but they will chase her. Yes, sometimes they just find a new one and the story remains the same.

In my opinion, they have to be locked up and yes, they could get some help inside the unit but I really don't know how successful those treatments are. Sometimes these men are not only abusers but also alcoholic, drugaddicts, rapists and assassins.

 

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10 minutes ago, Whiskey Rose said:

@BlueJean Baby, very glad you found the strength to get out of that, without even a whole lot of support behind you. Strong indeed.

Thanks. This happened in 1990 and 1991, before cell phones, which made it even harder. 

And one thing that really was hard to understand is my neighbors told my parents after he was gone that they were always worried about me because they would hear screams coming from my house....but no one bothered to call 911.

Edited by BlueJean Baby
Typo

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6 minutes ago, killuridols said:

The ones who do talk about it but have a hard time making a decision to leave the abusive relationship are indeed looking for help in some way, but there might be women who do not fully understand the seriousness of their problem, or are too scared of the future, or cannot see a clear way out and think there is no other chance for them, which could also be true, and they decide to stay and bear with it until it becomes unbearable.

These issues have to be treated so the women do not return to the abusive relationships and also do not engage in new ones! There's a whole educational dimension to this problem too that is related to the way we raise our daughters and our sons. We raise little girls to only aim for getting a husband and having children so they grow up to only care about exterior appearance and being successful among men.

All valid points. 

7 minutes ago, killuridols said:

In my opinion, they have to be locked up and yes, they could get some help inside the unit but I really don't know how successful those treatments are. Sometimes these men are not only abusers but also alcoholic, drugaddicts, rapists and assassins.

 

Assasins! What da hell? I'm glad i live in little ol' Ontario, I don't think we have many of these :scared: :lol:

 

11 minutes ago, BlueJean Baby said:

And one thing that really was hard to understand is my neighbors told my parents after he was gone that they were always worried about me because they would hear screams coming from my house....but no one bordered to call 911.

ffs. Which i guess kinda goes back to killuridols points that sometimes people just don't want to get involved. But at what cost? So wrong. 

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43 minutes ago, BlueJean Baby said:

Ok can't just sit here and say nothing at this point. First I will clearly state that what I am about to post has nothing to do with Axl or his personal business, that is something I am not comfortable discussing and I usually refrain from commenting on those topics. ?

With that said, I am the survivor of spousal abuse. And since that is where this discussion has gone, I will share what I went through, if you aren't interested stop reading now. ?

My first husband was and still is a clinically insane, alcoholic who moved me and our 5 month old son from Georgia to Virginia  (11 hours by car) saying he was going to work for his Dad there. He rented a house for us,  I got a decent job, and he went deeper into his alcoholism and became extremely mentally and physically abusive to me. He would not let me get a phone in the house so i could not call for help. He drove me to and from work, I had an office job where we had to wear suits and dress up, he kept accusing me of dressing up for someone at work. He would not let me have any friends and my parents knew nothing about what was beginning to happen and they were in GA. Some days he would pick me up and drive through rush hour traffic at speeds up tp 100 mph, dodging in and out of traffic with me terrified of being killed in a wreck and him yelling at me the entire way home. I had to start downplaying my looks, actually using makeup to try and look plain because of his jealousy. He would beat me up three or four days a week in a drunken rage, then cry for forgiveness and then be ok for a day or so, only for it to start back up. He would get between me and my baby son during these fights to keep me from running out with him. He would throw me in the floor, grab my face and try to push the back of my head through the fuckin' floor. His family believes whatever they were told by him and would not help me. When I did finally try to tell my parents, it upset them too much and they didn't want to hear it.  I wasn't making enough money at the to get away. I was basically held captive by him for two fuckin' years of pure he'll. He would constantly blame me for his fits of anger, after a while it got so bad I was even wondering if I was to blame, mental abuse can be just as bad. I had to wear long sleeves in the summer and extra makeup to cover the bruises I had from his abuse. I felt like I was going to lose my mind and started being ashamed to tell anyone. I finally made a few friends at work and invited one girl and her husband over one night after I finally talked him into it. When they left, he flew into another rage saying they were putting him down, which was not true, but I got beaten up again. My friends at work were into GNR and started loaning me videos and that was actually what ended up giving me the balls to stand up and start fighting back.  One night he didn't come home for dinner, i fell asleep on the sofa and woke up to bight headlights shining in my window, the car was there, door open, no keys and then i saw him passed out in the grass and the EMTs pulled up in tbe ambulance because someone saw him lying there and called 911. I tried asking them for help, but was so terrified  of what he would do and they ended up taking his ass inside and putting him in the bed. His brother came by and saw his condition and started believing me somewhat. A few days later they got into a huge fight, destroyed my house, light fixtures hanging by wires from the ceiling, blood all over my kitchen and his brother crawled into his car and drove home and left me to clean up the mess. My parents came to visit us and all hell broke loose, he got drunk went out and did not come home that night. My parents left the next morning thinking it was their fault he was mad at me. But they installed a phone in my house before they left. With his brother there, I told him it was over and we were getting a divorce, he moved in with his brother. A few days after I filed divorce papers, his brother was out of town and he called trying to lure me over there, I knew something sounded wrong and called his Dad who drove over there to find him sitting there with a gun to kill me and our son, they fought over the gun and shot out his tv. He finally left VA and moved to his mom's in GA. He kept calling threatening to kill us so he wouldn't have to pay child support. The police kept refusing to issue protection orders for me. He tried once again to kill me and my second husband 11 years later, when he stole my son for a year even though I had full custody and the police refuse to cross state lines to get my son back.  This guy has had 12 DWI arrests, has never served jail time.

So don't say things about abusive relationships if you have not actually lived in total terror, abuse, and fear for your life. I know exactly how it can be, each case is different, but that is my story.  My son texted me two months ago to be careful, said his Dad is back in Atlanta where I am now....he does not know I am here so far. But mom has home security and I have my dad's shotgun in case he finds me before I can call the police....

This has made me one hell of a strong person and I refuse to ever let anyone do that to me again. ?

 

Oh sad story take good care of jourself and your son  after on keyboard have  human being?

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Just now, Ratam said:

Oh sad story take good care of jourself and your son  after on keyboard have  human being?

Thank you. My son is 27 now, last time he saw his Dad a few years ago, he knocked the ass hole out, literally...he is very protective of me now. He was 2 when we finally split and does remember the screams, and me crying all the time, but not much more...thank god.

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Just now, BlueJean Baby said:

Thank you. My son is 27 now, last time he saw his Dad a few years ago, he knocked the ass hole out, literally...he is very protective of me now. He was 2 when we finally split and does remember the screams, and me crying all the time, but not much more...thank god.

Stay strong ,bravo you son?☺?

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2 minutes ago, BlueJean Baby said:

Thank you. My son is 27 now, last time he saw his Dad a few years ago, he knocked the ass hole out, literally...he is very protective of me now. He was 2 when we finally split and does remember the screams, and me crying all the time, but not much more...thank god.

Just horrible and heartbreaking :no: ..I'm so sorry you and your son had to go though that. :hug:I am glad to hear though that the sob was knocked out! Deserves much worse than that. 

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@BlueJean Baby I'm very sorry to hear about that and thank you for posting your story. It is hard to talk about those things but every testimony helps others to understand this problem and understand the victims instead of judging them under a limited scheme of things.

In what you told here it is clear that victims do want and need help but sometimes 1) they cannot ask for it, 2) they don't have a way to ask for it or 3) are terrified to ask for it. 

Not only that, when they do ask for help, pretty often they receive a rejection, a neglect ion or are plain ignored.

The abuser always finds a reason or excuse to abuse the woman. There's nothing you can do right or wrong, your mere existence is fodder for their aggression.

And last but not least, the fucked up legal system that allow these people to abuse over and over. Something horrific has to happen for them to start moving their asses.

It is very sad and pathetic that 11 years after you still have to be alert of where you go and keep updated with his whereabouts, when it should be all the contrary, the abuser locked up and the victim focusing on fixing her life and having a peaceful existence.

What a fucking joke! :facepalm:

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10 minutes ago, BlueJean Baby said:

Thank you. My son is 27 now, last time he saw his Dad a few years ago, he knocked the ass hole out, literally...he is very protective of me now. He was 2 when we finally split and does remember the screams, and me crying all the time, but not much more...thank god.

Kisses for you?queen?

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Thank you all.  I left the really horrible stuff out of the story...just say I am lucky to be alive. 

@killuridols as you said he should be locked up, which I understand he was for one week about two years ago for drunk driving. He tried to kill himself in jail, so after they released him from the hospital and his mother fought to let him free to get treatment. They let him free, he did not get any treatment. How he keeps getting away with things is beyond me. 

He had a second wife and two kids with her, did the same to them. 

 

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