GNR Women's Discussion - Part 2

[BlueJean Baby]

Ok can't just sit here and say nothing at this point. First I will clearly state that what I am about to post has nothing to do with Axl or his personal business, that is something I am not comfortable discussing and I usually refrain from commenting on those topics. ?

With that said, I am the survivor of spousal abuse. And since that is where this discussion has gone, I will share what I went through, if you aren't interested stop reading now. ?

My first husband was and still is a clinically insane, alcoholic who moved me and our 5 month old son from Georgia to Virginia  (11 hours by car) saying he was going to work for his Dad there. He rented a house for us,  I got a decent job, and he went deeper into his alcoholism and became extremely mentally and physically abusive to me. He would not let me get a phone in the house so i could not call for help. He drove me to and from work, I had an office job where we had to wear suits and dress up, he kept accusing me of dressing up for someone at work. He would not let me have any friends and my parents knew nothing about what was beginning to happen and they were in GA. Some days he would pick me up and drive through rush hour traffic at speeds up tp 100 mph, dodging in and out of traffic with me terrified of being killed in a wreck and him yelling at me the entire way home. I had to start downplaying my looks, actually using makeup to try and look plain because of his jealousy. He would beat me up three or four days a week in a drunken rage, then cry for forgiveness and then be ok for a day or so, only for it to start back up. He would get between me and my baby son during these fights to keep me from running out with him. He would throw me in the floor, grab my face and try to push the back of my head through the fuckin' floor. His family believes whatever they were told by him and would not help me. When I did finally try to tell my parents, it upset them too much and they didn't want to hear it.  I wasn't making enough money at the to get away. I was basically held captive by him for two fuckin' years of pure he'll. He would constantly blame me for his fits of anger, after a while it got so bad I was even wondering if I was to blame, mental abuse can be just as bad. I had to wear long sleeves in the summer and extra makeup to cover the bruises I had from his abuse. I felt like I was going to lose my mind and started being ashamed to tell anyone. I finally made a few friends at work and invited one girl and her husband over one night after I finally talked him into it. When they left, he flew into another rage saying they were putting him down, which was not true, but I got beaten up again. My friends at work were into GNR and started loaning me videos and that was actually what ended up giving me the balls to stand up and start fighting back.  One night he didn't come home for dinner, i fell asleep on the sofa and woke up to bright headlights shining in my window, the car was there, door open, no keys and then i saw him passed out in the grass and the EMTs pulled up in tbe ambulance because someone saw him lying there and called 911. I tried asking them for help, but was so terrified  of what he would do and they ended up taking his ass inside and putting him in the bed. His brother came by and saw his condition and started believing me somewhat. A few days later they got into a huge fight, destroyed my house, light fixtures hanging by wires from the ceiling, blood all over my kitchen and his brother crawled into his car and drove home and left me to clean up the mess. My parents came to visit us and all hell broke loose, he got drunk went out and did not come home that night. My parents left the next morning thinking it was their fault he was mad at me. But they installed a phone in my house before they left. With his brother there, I told him it was over and we were getting a divorce, he moved in with his brother. A few days after I filed divorce papers, his brother was out of town and he called trying to lure me over there, I knew something sounded wrong and called his Dad who drove over there to find him sitting there with a gun to kill me and our son, they fought over the gun and shot out his tv. He finally left VA and moved to his mom's in GA. He kept calling threatening to kill us so he wouldn't have to pay child support. The police kept refusing to issue protection orders for me. He tried once again to kill me and my second husband 11 years later, when he stole my son for a year even though I had full custody and the police refuse to cross state lines to get my son back.  This guy has had 12 DWI arrests, has never served jail time.

So don't say things about abusive relationships if you have not actually lived in total terror, abuse, and fear for your life. I know exactly how it can be, each case is different, but that is my story.  My son texted me two months ago to be careful, said his Dad is back in Atlanta where I am now....he does not know I am here so far. But mom has home security and I have my dad's shotgun in case he finds me before I can call the police....

This has made me one hell of a strong person and I refuse to ever let anyone do that to me again. ?

 

Edited May 4, 2017 by BlueJean Baby
Edited

[Whiskey Rose]

@BlueJean Baby, very glad you found the strength to get out of that, without even a whole lot of support behind you. Strong indeed.

[killuridols]

31 minutes ago, Alja said:

You can never help someone who is not willing to help oneself or see even direct evidence. And just daily whining about how poor and abused he/she is and then return to that environment. Not all relationships are explicitly violent, there are many ways how people abuse others.

 

3 minutes ago, Whiskey Rose said:

If only it were that simple, but it's just not. You can't "make" a woman leave if she doesn't want to. I don't know what it's like there, but yes, the police can charge a man, and he spend some time in jail, but then often the woman feels guilty because "she" sent him there. And then feels resentment towards the people who either called the police, or encouraged her to do so.

What I'm saying it's not simple since most people have the same opinions than you and @Alja about women who are in this situation and they prefer to not get involved, so it is unusual someone other than the victim and maybe their direct family will move a finger for them.

Women who dont want to be helped just do not talk about it at all and when someone suspects, they will deny it. Others hide it because they fear their abuser will find out and will react even worse towards them and/or their children.

The ones who do talk about it but have a hard time making a decision to leave the abusive relationship are indeed looking for help in some way, but there might be women who do not fully understand the seriousness of their problem, or are too scared of the future, or cannot see a clear way out and think there is no other chance for them, which could also be true, and they decide to stay and bear with it until it becomes unbearable.

These issues have to be treated so the women do not return to the abusive relationships and also do not engage in new ones! There's a whole educational dimension to this problem too that is related to the way we raise our daughters and our sons. We raise little girls to only aim for getting a husband and having children so they grow up to only care about exterior appearance and being successful among men.

I have a hard time believing most women in this situation don't want to be helped and I do believe it is mostly society, the patriarchal system and flawed legislation the ones who do not want to deal with domestic abuse because they think people are able to get in and out of relationships just like that.

45 minutes ago, Whiskey Rose said:

As to your last point, that the abuser will not let go and follow..yes, true in some cases, but not all. Also that they will just find someone else and do the same thing to. Which shows that we also need more services for perpetrators of abuse, so that they can get some help themselves, to stop the cycle. Such as that program @millionsofspiders spoke about in the UK.

The abuser is a sick person who wants to exercise power over their victim and they will never stop. A victim can run away but they will chase her. Yes, sometimes they just find a new one and the story remains the same.

In my opinion, they have to be locked up and yes, they could get some help inside the unit but I really don't know how successful those treatments are. Sometimes these men are not only abusers but also alcoholic, drugaddicts, rapists and assassins.

 

[BlueJean Baby]

10 minutes ago, Whiskey Rose said:

@BlueJean Baby, very glad you found the strength to get out of that, without even a whole lot of support behind you. Strong indeed.

Thanks. This happened in 1990 and 1991, before cell phones, which made it even harder. 

And one thing that really was hard to understand is my neighbors told my parents after he was gone that they were always worried about me because they would hear screams coming from my house....but no one bothered to call 911.

Edited April 30, 2017 by BlueJean Baby
Typo

[Whiskey Rose]

6 minutes ago, killuridols said:

The ones who do talk about it but have a hard time making a decision to leave the abusive relationship are indeed looking for help in some way, but there might be women who do not fully understand the seriousness of their problem, or are too scared of the future, or cannot see a clear way out and think there is no other chance for them, which could also be true, and they decide to stay and bear with it until it becomes unbearable.

These issues have to be treated so the women do not return to the abusive relationships and also do not engage in new ones! There's a whole educational dimension to this problem too that is related to the way we raise our daughters and our sons. We raise little girls to only aim for getting a husband and having children so they grow up to only care about exterior appearance and being successful among men.

All valid points. 

7 minutes ago, killuridols said:

In my opinion, they have to be locked up and yes, they could get some help inside the unit but I really don't know how successful those treatments are. Sometimes these men are not only abusers but also alcoholic, drugaddicts, rapists and assassins.

 

Assasins! What da hell? I'm glad i live in little ol' Ontario, I don't think we have many of these  

 

11 minutes ago, BlueJean Baby said:

And one thing that really was hard to understand is my neighbors told my parents after he was gone that they were always worried about me because they would hear screams coming from my house....but no one bordered to call 911.

ffs. Which i guess kinda goes back to killuridols points that sometimes people just don't want to get involved. But at what cost? So wrong. 

[Ratam]

43 minutes ago, BlueJean Baby said:

Ok can't just sit here and say nothing at this point. First I will clearly state that what I am about to post has nothing to do with Axl or his personal business, that is something I am not comfortable discussing and I usually refrain from commenting on those topics. ?

With that said, I am the survivor of spousal abuse. And since that is where this discussion has gone, I will share what I went through, if you aren't interested stop reading now. ?

My first husband was and still is a clinically insane, alcoholic who moved me and our 5 month old son from Georgia to Virginia  (11 hours by car) saying he was going to work for his Dad there. He rented a house for us,  I got a decent job, and he went deeper into his alcoholism and became extremely mentally and physically abusive to me. He would not let me get a phone in the house so i could not call for help. He drove me to and from work, I had an office job where we had to wear suits and dress up, he kept accusing me of dressing up for someone at work. He would not let me have any friends and my parents knew nothing about what was beginning to happen and they were in GA. Some days he would pick me up and drive through rush hour traffic at speeds up tp 100 mph, dodging in and out of traffic with me terrified of being killed in a wreck and him yelling at me the entire way home. I had to start downplaying my looks, actually using makeup to try and look plain because of his jealousy. He would beat me up three or four days a week in a drunken rage, then cry for forgiveness and then be ok for a day or so, only for it to start back up. He would get between me and my baby son during these fights to keep me from running out with him. He would throw me in the floor, grab my face and try to push the back of my head through the fuckin' floor. His family believes whatever they were told by him and would not help me. When I did finally try to tell my parents, it upset them too much and they didn't want to hear it.  I wasn't making enough money at the to get away. I was basically held captive by him for two fuckin' years of pure he'll. He would constantly blame me for his fits of anger, after a while it got so bad I was even wondering if I was to blame, mental abuse can be just as bad. I had to wear long sleeves in the summer and extra makeup to cover the bruises I had from his abuse. I felt like I was going to lose my mind and started being ashamed to tell anyone. I finally made a few friends at work and invited one girl and her husband over one night after I finally talked him into it. When they left, he flew into another rage saying they were putting him down, which was not true, but I got beaten up again. My friends at work were into GNR and started loaning me videos and that was actually what ended up giving me the balls to stand up and start fighting back.  One night he didn't come home for dinner, i fell asleep on the sofa and woke up to bight headlights shining in my window, the car was there, door open, no keys and then i saw him passed out in the grass and the EMTs pulled up in tbe ambulance because someone saw him lying there and called 911. I tried asking them for help, but was so terrified  of what he would do and they ended up taking his ass inside and putting him in the bed. His brother came by and saw his condition and started believing me somewhat. A few days later they got into a huge fight, destroyed my house, light fixtures hanging by wires from the ceiling, blood all over my kitchen and his brother crawled into his car and drove home and left me to clean up the mess. My parents came to visit us and all hell broke loose, he got drunk went out and did not come home that night. My parents left the next morning thinking it was their fault he was mad at me. But they installed a phone in my house before they left. With his brother there, I told him it was over and we were getting a divorce, he moved in with his brother. A few days after I filed divorce papers, his brother was out of town and he called trying to lure me over there, I knew something sounded wrong and called his Dad who drove over there to find him sitting there with a gun to kill me and our son, they fought over the gun and shot out his tv. He finally left VA and moved to his mom's in GA. He kept calling threatening to kill us so he wouldn't have to pay child support. The police kept refusing to issue protection orders for me. He tried once again to kill me and my second husband 11 years later, when he stole my son for a year even though I had full custody and the police refuse to cross state lines to get my son back.  This guy has had 12 DWI arrests, has never served jail time.

So don't say things about abusive relationships if you have not actually lived in total terror, abuse, and fear for your life. I know exactly how it can be, each case is different, but that is my story.  My son texted me two months ago to be careful, said his Dad is back in Atlanta where I am now....he does not know I am here so far. But mom has home security and I have my dad's shotgun in case he finds me before I can call the police....

This has made me one hell of a strong person and I refuse to ever let anyone do that to me again. ?

 

Oh sad story take good care of jourself and your son  after on keyboard have  human being?

[BlueJean Baby]

Just now, Ratam said:

Oh sad story take good care of jourself and your son  after on keyboard have  human being?

Thank you. My son is 27 now, last time he saw his Dad a few years ago, he knocked the ass hole out, literally...he is very protective of me now. He was 2 when we finally split and does remember the screams, and me crying all the time, but not much more...thank god.

[Ratam]

Just now, BlueJean Baby said:

Thank you. My son is 27 now, last time he saw his Dad a few years ago, he knocked the ass hole out, literally...he is very protective of me now. He was 2 when we finally split and does remember the screams, and me crying all the time, but not much more...thank god.

Stay strong ,bravo you son?☺?

[marlingrl03]

2 minutes ago, BlueJean Baby said:

Thank you. My son is 27 now, last time he saw his Dad a few years ago, he knocked the ass hole out, literally...he is very protective of me now. He was 2 when we finally split and does remember the screams, and me crying all the time, but not much more...thank god.

Just horrible and heartbreaking  ..I'm so sorry you and your son had to go though that. I am glad to hear though that the sob was knocked out! Deserves much worse than that. 

[killuridols]

@BlueJean Baby I'm very sorry to hear about that and thank you for posting your story. It is hard to talk about those things but every testimony helps others to understand this problem and understand the victims instead of judging them under a limited scheme of things.

In what you told here it is clear that victims do want and need help but sometimes 1) they cannot ask for it, 2) they don't have a way to ask for it or 3) are terrified to ask for it. 

Not only that, when they do ask for help, pretty often they receive a rejection, a neglect ion or are plain ignored.

The abuser always finds a reason or excuse to abuse the woman. There's nothing you can do right or wrong, your mere existence is fodder for their aggression.

And last but not least, the fucked up legal system that allow these people to abuse over and over. Something horrific has to happen for them to start moving their asses.

It is very sad and pathetic that 11 years after you still have to be alert of where you go and keep updated with his whereabouts, when it should be all the contrary, the abuser locked up and the victim focusing on fixing her life and having a peaceful existence.

What a fucking joke! 

[Fansince88]

 I just want to say that I think that the women --especially @BlueJean Baby - who spoke of the reality  domestic abuse did the thread proud today. I know to a lot of people this is probably some silly thread, but the thing is, you never know who is reading this or what they are going through. I can't even imagine being someone in that situation and then reading the "blame the victim" theory and I hope that if anyone who is in a horrible situation right now is reading this thread, that they see that there are far more compassionate and empathetic people in this world than ignorant ones.  

[Ratam]

10 minutes ago, BlueJean Baby said:

Thank you. My son is 27 now, last time he saw his Dad a few years ago, he knocked the ass hole out, literally...he is very protective of me now. He was 2 when we finally split and does remember the screams, and me crying all the time, but not much more...thank god.

Kisses for you?queen?

[BlueJean Baby]

Thank you all.  I left the really horrible stuff out of the story...just say I am lucky to be alive. 

@killuridols as you said he should be locked up, which I understand he was for one week about two years ago for drunk driving. He tried to kill himself in jail, so after they released him from the hospital and his mother fought to let him free to get treatment. They let him free, he did not get any treatment. How he keeps getting away with things is beyond me. 

He had a second wife and two kids with her, did the same to them. 

 

[killuridols]

Why victims of domestic abuse do not leave?

"Domestic abuse thrives only in silence..."

Please watch it and spread the word. It's only 16 minutes of wisdom and enlightenment. 

Edited May 1, 2017 by killuridols

[Ratam]

8 minutes ago, killuridols said:

Why victims of domestic abuse do not leave?

 

Sorry  out the likes?

[killuridols]

7 minutes ago, BlueJean Baby said:

Thank you all.  I left the really horrible stuff out of the story...just say I am lucky to be alive. 

@killuridols as you said he should be locked up, which I understand he was for one week about two years ago for drunk driving. He tried to kill himself in jail, so after they released him from the hospital and his mother fought to let him free to get treatment. They let him free, he did not get any treatment. How he keeps getting away with things is beyond me. 

He had a second wife and two kids with her, did the same to them. 

A fucked up legal system based on patriarchy and probably full of male judges and attorneys is what keeps this guy getting away with it.

A system that works for the aggressor and not for the victims. They walk in the street among us, with all their freedom guaranteed and probably thinking it is his right to be out of jail because "freedom for all" and all that rights-based system BS.

[Ratam]

19 minutes ago, killuridols said:

A fucked up legal system based on patriarchy and probably full of male judges and attorneys is what keeps this guy getting away with it.

A system that works for the aggressor and not for the victims. They walk in the street among us, with all their freedom guaranteed and probably thinking it is his right to be out of jail because "freedom for all" and all that rights-based system BS.

System same in all world Argentina no different

[killuridols]

2 minutes ago, Ratam said:

System same in all world Argentina no different

I know it very well 

[Blackstar]

There were a couple of things in the last 10 pages or so that I wanted to comment on (and contribute some new stuff), but now I can't even remember what these subjects were.

---

About the discussion going on right now:

I can't stress enough how much I disagree with any implication that the victims might be to blame for "provoking" the violence towards them.

With that being said, I completely understand @Whiskey Rose's point, as I had similar experiences with two cases, one of a relative and one of a friend. I think that each DV case is different, although there is a common pattern in all of them. The two situations I mentioned above (and I've had first hand knowledge of) were not as extreme as what @BlueJean Baby went through (thank you for opening up and sharing your experience); however, the victims didn't find the strength and the will to walk out.

In the relative's case I can partly understand that she stayed in the abusive relationship for many years (although she had full support from family/friends and there was no financial dependency issue), because there was a child involved.

My friend though... I won't go into full detail, as it's personal stuff and I don't want to expose someone else's life here, even anonymously. All ll I can say is that she finally married the guy despite the support and the advice for not doing so (he was manipulative and managed to turn her against her friends); and, as far as I know, she's still with him about 20 years after. I think that there is some responsibility on the victim's part here.

Edited May 1, 2017 by Blackstar
typo

[killuridols]

1 hour ago, Blackstar said:

All ll I can say is that she finally married the guy despite the support and the advice for not doing so (he was manipulative and managed to turn her against her friends); and, as far as I know, she's still with him about 20 years after. I think that there is some responsibility on the victim's part here.

You could benefit from watching the video I posted before to understand why a woman stays in an abusive relationship.

Saying that a victim has total or partial blame is perpetrating the idea that people deserve what they get because of what they do and that the abuser has no responsibility at all. 

A victim is always a victim and the focus do not have to be in how come she doesn't run away because you know what? That guy will soon get another vulnerable woman and he will continue to be an abuser, while the victim remains a survivor!

We don't need any more survivors of domestic violence. We need women who never get to experience it and if they do, it should be their abusers responsibility the one in question, not the victim's, who is probably emotionally damaged and deeply disturbed to even make sense out of the whole situation.

The patriarchal society has imposed the idea that when we've been damaged for the first time it is someone else's fault but when we are damaged for the second time, it is ours. Gender violence is not so simple to understand from the outside, especially from the point of view of a healthy mind.

Edited May 1, 2017 by killuridols

[Blackstar]

@killuridols, my post was mainly about sharing my personal experience, not about going into my general views on the subject (which are no different that yours), and I don't need any lecturing on it.

Edited May 1, 2017 by Blackstar

[killuridols]

3 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

@killuridols, my post was mainly about sharing my personal experience, not about going into my general views on the subject; which are no different that yours and I won't accept any lecturing about it.

Your "personal experience" jumped to a quick conclusion which happens to be one of the most damaging ideas this whole subject always brings up: the responsibility of the victims.

I wasn't trying to lecture you but what you said still triggers that idea and it is opposite to my views on the subject, so I don't think we agree on that, either on a personal or general view.

[Blackstar]

2 minutes ago, killuridols said:

Your "personal experience" jumped to a quick conclusion which happens to be one of the most damaging ideas this whole subject always brings up: the responsibility of the victims.

I wasn't trying to lecture you but what you said still triggers that idea and it is opposite to my views on the subject, so I don't think we agree on that, either on a personal or general view.

I referred to a particular case and the elements that separate it from others without going into details for reasons I explained.

Anyway, whatever...

[SerenityScorp]

Better than Slash house

http://www.alternativenation.net/guns-n-roses-member-3-85-million-mansion-blow-you-away/

[Alja]

A little insight on "how a grown-ass man can be abused in relationship" for Women`s thread:

It`s strange for me that every time we speak about abusive households, we speak just about women and kids. Few years ago I was helping to opponent a thesis about domestic abuse. After I`ve read 50+ pages, I was pretty surprised that I found just women and children issues. No mention about disabled or elders or any mention how can a man be abused in relationship (household). Yes, I have seen a man pretty badly injured by his wife using kitchen stuff (later he changed story to a sports injury). I agree, this is rare if you compare it with amount of open violence on obviously weaker ones. But, you know, imagine a man going to the police that his old lady beat the shit out of him with frying pan. Sissy, isn`t he? Pretty the same as raped man. Patriarchal society does damage both sides. 

Then there is second line of abusing which is not visible on the first glimpse. Emotional abuse. It is even strongest and damage lasts longer that any violent outburst. Women can be really good in this. 

For my (inner) purposes I divide violence into targeted and not targeted. Systematic (targeted) violence comes also with intent to do as large damage as possible, usually with emotional, economic or any other kind of abuse. Outburst/hissy/throwing tantrum is different kind of violence (if a man with autism attacks because he got upset, that`s it - as a clear example. Please don`t fail into semantic nuances chasing, autism example is to highlight the aspect of not systematic behavior but rather uncontrolled reaction). My problem is if I`m in the way. On the other side, if you have person like this at home, you are in the way pretty often.

Nothing can protect you from falling into a relationship with either to sociopath partner or someone with pretty big baggage of inner issues. But, somehow, often two "packed" ones get together, even in extent that they both cannot even imagine healthy, equal and respectful relationship because they had never seen something like that. Back to men issue: women can get control or advantage usually not with violence, they rather with systematic undermining of self-esteem of that man. It`s easier when the man is cracked from past issues or does have serious mental issues. Man can really loose all their being for particular woman, I`ve seen guys totally helpless about their "sweet child" idolized in their minds. In some cases they can`t make any other working relationship because there is still their sweet child, from relationship that never existed or is not functional or reachable anymore. She could do anything to that man (it`s just up on her, it`s difficult and unequal relationship anyway, even if sweet and calm from the outside) and they will be loving and helpless and beg for coming back like kicked puppy.

If the self esteem is undermined effectively enough, the man cannot see himself as worthy of unconditional love and can only maintain relationships where he is pretty sure that he pays enough for attention and care (and does not get emotionally involved too much). Don`t mention that he can feel not worthy living, but here we stepped into suicidal depth of thoughts. (I`d be somehow interested how many men attempted suicide because of relationship abuse). 

 

Edited May 1, 2017 by Alja