GNR Women's Discussion - Part 2

[Tori72]

1 hour ago, Frey said:

Yes, you are nuts

I see people here just poking fun at MM's dumb comment. I mostly think it's funny (in a gross way, because the mental images are ) and kinda lame lol. Anyway, what other comments by what other guys? What do you think he must have heard?

 

Prostitution. Izzy was a small scale criminal, as you said, it's highly unrealistic he would have been involved in actual human trafficking.

What I imagine they did is this: He/they probably asked or talked some of their stripper friends (and other girls in less than ideal living situations) into sleeping with this guy or that guy (maybe while the girls were drunk or high), and the guy would then give money to him/them afterwards. Still incredibly shitty and fucked up, but I can't picture them/Izzy doing anything more organized than that (i.e. acting like actual pimps with a bunch of women constantly working for them in some kind of structured setting).

Another possibility: He might also have asked his girlfriends to make some money for them both to sustain their habit. I could easily picture an arrangement like that with Izzy and Desi for example. They were both drug addicts and a young drug addicted girl like Desi was could probably be talked into doing something like that out of "love" or if their drug supply ran low or something.

 

As for Axl and the rest having jobs: Well, I actually agree with what you said, but Axl, Slash and Duff at least have a number of legal jobs they can point to and claim they worked. And Axl can't have been totally awful at his Tower video job if they made him manager (granted, doesn't necessarily have to mean much, but it's something at least). What I'm saying is, they all at least have some excuse and legal jobs that they can name if necessary. But Izzy doesn't even have that. It seems like he sustained himself entirely by engaging in really messed up activities right until they got famous.

Which frankly is a bit baffling to me. He seemed like he was a good kid back in Lafayette (comparatively...), and he seems like a good guy now. And yes, drugs will make people do questionable things, but most drug addicts don't turn into heroin dealers and "pimps". Basically I'm wondering how he got into all of this in the first place.

 

That's what I think about the pimping. And I think it's a mixture of both scenarios. The Desi-agreement might have developed into a steady thing. Might or might not.

As for the point of overreacting. To me it's a severe thing to make a woman prostitute herself for someone else's gain. No matter whether she has been a prostitute before or not. I'm not overreacting to anything, I expressed my disappointment, astonishment, shock, don't know how to call it. And no, I am not ignorant of the other fucked up shit they did. Each his or her own reaction to things, i suppose.

And yeah, @Frey it's baffling to me as well and I thought about it. I guess it's the drugs, the poverty, the desperation and also a certain criminal mind. And then probably one thing that's leading to another, guys escalating with each other, all those things. I also think it's possible that all the other guys did the same thing to other women too. 

About the MM discussion. It might have been a joke or an exaggeration of things, I didn't take it seriously, I just thought it's funny regarding where it's coming from. Whatever the whole straight or bi/gay discussion about Axl gets a little old for me. Whatever he is i so don't care, I just hope he knows what he is and lives accordingly 

 

Edited May 4, 2017 by Tori72

[MillionsOfSpiders]

Well, addicts are horrible people who will do whatever it takes to get what they need. I know they are because my mum is an alcoholic and has always been since I've known her. They will tell lies about everything and steal whatever they can to sell, they will only think of themselves, unfortunately. You can think 'surely they won't stoop that low.' Oh yes, they will!! 

[stella]

1 hour ago, Tori72 said:

That's what I think about the pimping. And I think it's a mixture of both scenarios. The Desi-agreement might have developed into a steady thing. Might or might not.

As for the point of overreacting. To me it's a severe thing to make a woman prostitute herself for someone else's gain. No matter whether she has been a prostitute before or not. I'm not overreacting to anything, I expressed my disappointment, astonishment, shock, don't know how to call it. And no, I am not ignorant of the other fucked up shit they did. Each his or her own reaction to things, i suppose.

And yeah, @Frey it's baffling to me as well and I thought about it. I guess it's the drugs, the poverty, the desperation and also a certain criminal mind. And then probably one thing that's leading to another, guys escalating with each other, all those things. I also think it's possible that all the other guys did the same thing to other women too. 

About the MM discussion. It might have been a joke or an exaggeration of things, I didn't take it seriously, I just thought it's funny regarding where it's coming from. Whatever the whole straight or bi/gay discussion about Axl gets a little old for me. Whatever he is i so don't care, I just hope he knows what he is and lives accordingly 

I agree. I think the situation @Frey mentioned, where he was having his girlfriends make some side money, is possible, but that is still very exploitative. Especially since we know that at least one of the girls who ran with the band, Desi, was underage. It would certainly be another reason Izzy had no interest in talking with Marc Canter for his book, especially when he found out that Desi and some of the other early-days people were involved.

I get tired of the discussions about Axl's sexuality, too. For all we know he could be asexual or just uninterested in it now. Plenty of people seem not to GAF after their early relationships end and never pair up with anyone again.

Marilyn Manson has a long history of doing and saying things to shock people; by his own token he didn't even know Axl. He seemed to be put off by Axl being so forward about wanting to meet and work with him so the comment seems to have germinated from that.

[Tori72]

Just now, MillionsOfSpiders said:

Well, addicts are horrible people who will do whatever it takes to get what they need. I know they are because my mum is an alcoholic and has always been since I've known her. They will tell lies about everything and steal whatever they can to sell, they will only think of themselves, unfortunately. You can think 'surely they won't stoop that low.' Oh yes, they will!! 

That's true. And I'm sorry to hear that about your mom, dear 

[MillionsOfSpiders]

7 minutes ago, Tori72 said:

That's true. And I'm sorry to hear that about your mom, dear 

Thanks, it's ok though, I don't hate her or anything, we still have a relationship  

[stella]

3 hours ago, Frey said:

As for Axl and the rest having jobs: Well, I actually agree with what you said, but Axl, Slash and Duff at least have a number of legal jobs they can point to and claim they worked. And Axl can't have been totally awful at his Tower video job if they made him manager (granted, doesn't necessarily have to mean much, but it's something at least). What I'm saying is, they all at least have some excuse and legal jobs that they can name if necessary. But Izzy doesn't even have that. It seems like he sustained himself entirely by engaging in really messed up activities right until they got famous.

 

Yeah, it doesn't really make any sense. The most common reasons for "fake relationships", "beards" or escorts are usually because

1) someone wants to hide that they're gay

or

2) it's a publicity stunt

 

In terms of Axl and Slash at Tower, Marc Canter said they both did well at their jobs, and I would trust him there. And yeah, being night manager in retail might not be the most glamorous thing, but it does require someone to have been there for a while, and have built up some level of trust. Managers have tasks like supervising their colleagues, opening and closing the store, reconciling the registers and doing nightly money counts, etc. and they don't give that responsibility to everyone. 

And in terms of escorts, it can be also simply be a social thing with no ulterior motive. It can be because someone's lonely that night or wants to participate in a social event where couples are expected. Ever been on a cruise? They have (or used to have) men on staff who would dance with the women who didn't have a partner of their own. It wasn't for anything other than to have a social interaction for the night.

And...people can and do simply want to fuck around for the evening and not have any strings or relationship drama. No judgment there, as long as everyone's of age and consenting.

Beards are usually front and center. In the friends/acquaintance circles I've known about that were definitely beards, there was always a huge emphasis on playing up the relationship in public/around friends and family. It's usually way in excess of what one would expect. I've never seen Axl declaring his undying love or doing cheesy photo shoots with these women, so I doubt they're beards.

Edited May 4, 2017 by stella

[killuridols]

3 hours ago, Frey said:

Yes, you are nuts

I see people here just poking fun at MM's dumb comment. I mostly think it's funny (in a gross way, because the mental images are ) and kinda lame lol. Anyway, what other comments by what other guys? What do you think he must have heard?

 

3 hours ago, Frey said:

Neither of these apply to Axl (most likely). I mean unless the Slaxl fanatics, Alan Niven, MM and the mysterious other people @killuridols mentioned are actually right, Axl is probably straight

lol, thanks for the confirmation

Umm, I think I put foot in mouth   and forgot I didn't have this conversation with you, but it was with @Lumikki and @Andy14

Now I don't know if I should say more about this

3 hours ago, Frey said:

Prostitution. Izzy was a small scale criminal, as you said, it's highly unrealistic he would have been involved in actual human trafficking.

What I imagine they did is this: He/they probably asked or talked some of their stripper friends (and other girls in less than ideal living situations) into sleeping with this guy or that guy (maybe while the girls were drunk or high), and the guy would then give money to him/them afterwards. Still incredibly shitty and fucked up, but I can't picture them/Izzy doing anything more organized than that (i.e. acting like actual pimps with a bunch of women constantly working for them in some kind of structured setting).

Ok!

I was confused about the whole "selling women" stuff because here it means something different. So yeah, I also imagined a similar scenario if it was about prostitution, it's very plausible. All of them were involved with stripper girls and drugaddicts themselves. Unfortunately, the world of drugs is very fucked up and it usually goes hand in hand with alcoholism, prostitution and all kinds of criminal activities.

Drugaddicts will do anything to get their shit, especially if they are dominated by dealers who ask them for more money and who knows what else everytime. I'm sure guys asked "favors" to Izzy or he owed "favors" to some guys and he payed them that way. It's not uncommon and a very sad thing.

3 hours ago, Frey said:

As for Axl and the rest having jobs: Well, I actually agree with what you said, but Axl, Slash and Duff at least have a number of legal jobs they can point to and claim they worked. And Axl can't have been totally awful at his Tower video job if they made him manager (granted, doesn't necessarily have to mean much, but it's something at least). What I'm saying is, they all at least have some excuse and legal jobs that they can name if necessary. But Izzy doesn't even have that. It seems like he sustained himself entirely by engaging in really messed up activities right until they got famous.

Which frankly is a bit baffling to me. He seemed like he was a good kid back in Lafayette (comparatively...), and he seems like a good guy now. And yes, drugs will make people do questionable things, but most drug addicts don't turn into heroin dealers and "pimps". Basically I'm wondering how he got into all of this in the first place.

Yeah, still some legal jobs are not what a mother would wish for any children

I'm not saying Axl was awful at his position in Tower Video but I don't think he held that one for too long. He was not interested in keeping any job like that. First he had Gina supporting him, then he had Erin working as a model to support both of them. And I think Steven was somewhat like that too. Probably, Izzy too.

In my opinion, all of them were scumbags using and abusing women in all shapes and forms... That's how things were back then, in that environment, in the sordid world of drugs and the night life. I'm not sure we can talk about poverty here. It was more of a choice, in my opinion. But at least they had a goal in mind that didn't involve being pimps and dealers for the rest of their lives. It seems drugs had not digged that deep in those brains. Usually drugaddicts never amount to anything, so these guys gotta be thankful of having a talent and drive that allowed them get rich soon and get out of that horrible scene.

 

[beautifulanddamned]

The situation these guys were in was horrible and people do despicable things when they are hungry and desperate and addicted. Remember they used to prostitute themselves, too. We don't tend to think about it that way, but they would have sex with strippers and other girls who would take care of them- literally give them food and clothes and money. One former band member (I can't remember who and I'm at work so I can't search for the interview) said that he and Izzy would go to the bar in a fancy hotel to try and pick up wealthy ladies who fancied some young handsome boys. Steven.... did some shit for drugs. The Gardner Street place was a shithole and the area between Western Avenue and Gardner Street was well known for prostitution in LA in the late 70's and early 80's.  

They weren't nice guys back then. They reveled in it, they sold themselves on it (the Most Dangerous Band in the World) it inspired their art (turn around bitch...the whole of Anything Goes, Jungle, PTU).  I love them as artists but as people? No.

In some ways, Desi is the lost voice despite her talking to Canter. She doesn't pop up as much as say, Adrianna or Pamela. I wonder if she's even still alive.

 

[Ratam]

27 minutes ago, beautifulanddamned said:

The situation these guys were in was horrible and people do despicable things when they are hungry and desperate and addicted. Remember they used to prostitute themselves, too. We don't tend to think about it that way, but they would have sex with strippers and other girls who would take care of them- literally give them food and clothes and money. One former band member (I can't remember who and I'm at work so I can't search for the interview) said that he and Izzy would go to the bar in a fancy hotel to try and pick up wealthy ladies who fancied some young handsome boys. Steven.... did some shit for drugs. The Gardner Street place was a shithole and the area between Western Avenue and Gardner Street was well known for prostitution in LA in the late 70's and early 80's.  

They weren't nice guys back then. They reveled in it, they sold themselves on it (the Most Dangerous Band in the World) it inspired their art (turn around bitch...the whole of Anything Goes, Jungle, PTU).  I love them as artists but as people? No.

In some ways, Desi is the lost voice despite her talking to Canter. She doesn't pop up as much as say, Adrianna or Pamela. I wonder if she's even still alive.

 

Axl made the perfect description in"wttj"

[killuridols]

Yes, sexism everywhere. Male prostitution is probably not so common but it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It is just more secretive and it goes with different names, like Gigolos, taxiboys, callboys and other stuff.

I do remember that comment about Izzy and I think it is Steven? who hooked up with wealthy ladies for some money. Not sure where I read it either.

[Darkenchantress]

58 minutes ago, beautifulanddamned said:

In some ways, Desi is the lost voice despite her talking to Canter. She doesn't pop up as much as say, Adrianna or Pamela. I wonder if she's even still alive.

 

I believe she is and she has actually tried to contact Izzy via Twitter not so long ago, say, for his birthday. She goes with a different name but she signed as "Dezi". The tweet is gone, though, in a very Stradlin style. 

[Fourteenbeers]

1 hour ago, killuridols said:

Yes, sexism everywhere. Male prostitution is probably not so common but it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It is just more secretive and it goes with different names, like Gigolos, taxiboys, callboys and other stuff.

I do remember that comment about Izzy and I think it is Steven? who hooked up with wealthy ladies for some money. Not sure where I read it either.

Well, they were one mighty handsome kennel... I'm sure some rich bitch would have gladly bought them (pun intended)

But seriously speaking, this "pimp" thing - I remember reading about it on Izzy's thread.  There was a suggestion that Izzy is so reclusive and avoids the limelight not only because of his personality, but also because of his past.  Somebody also suggested that he has made lots on songs about moving on etc. because the past bothers him. 

 I can't be objective, being a fan and all... but I don't believe for a second that he's proud of what he's done or that it wouldn't  bother him.  

Severe drug addiction combined with wrong kind of environment can indeed make people do horrible things. It doesn't justify them, but it explains why it can happen. What I've read about their earlier days, the place they were living in was in the middle of drug and prostitution central.  

 About that interview..  Izzy referring to "selling girls" - I'm still mixed - was it  "I sold girls" or "we sold girls"`? I get the impression that he was not the only one who did that.

I'm also willing to believe that it was not "professional" organized crime -kind of pimping, but more something like what Frey described on the earlier post.  

 

 

 

 

Edited May 4, 2017 by Fourteenbeers
---

[Frey]

5 hours ago, Tori72 said:

That's what I think about the pimping. And I think it's a mixture of both scenarios. The Desi-agreement might have developed into a steady thing. Might or might not.

As for the point of overreacting. To me it's a severe thing to make a woman prostitute herself for someone else's gain. No matter whether she has been a prostitute before or not. I'm not overreacting to anything, I expressed my disappointment, astonishment, shock, don't know how to call it. And no, I am not ignorant of the other fucked up shit they did. Each his or her own reaction to things, i suppose.

And yeah, @Frey it's baffling to me as well and I thought about it. I guess it's the drugs, the poverty, the desperation and also a certain criminal mind. And then probably one thing that's leading to another, guys escalating with each other, all those things. I also think it's possible that all the other guys did the same thing to other women too.

3 hours ago, beautifulanddamned said:

The situation these guys were in was horrible and people do despicable things when they are hungry and desperate and addicted. Remember they used to prostitute themselves, too. We don't tend to think about it that way, but they would have sex with strippers and other girls who would take care of them- literally give them food and clothes and money. One former band member (I can't remember who and I'm at work so I can't search for the interview) said that he and Izzy would go to the bar in a fancy hotel to try and pick up wealthy ladies who fancied some young handsome boys. Steven.... did some shit for drugs. The Gardner Street place was a shithole and the area between Western Avenue and Gardner Street was well known for prostitution in LA in the late 70's and early 80's.  

They weren't nice guys back then. They reveled in it, they sold themselves on it (the Most Dangerous Band in the World) it inspired their art (turn around bitch...the whole of Anything Goes, Jungle, PTU).  I love them as artists but as people? No.

In some ways, Desi is the lost voice despite her talking to Canter. She doesn't pop up as much as say, Adrianna or Pamela. I wonder if she's even still alive.

I didn't say anything about over-reacting to the prostitution thing (and no one else did either)? I agree with you, it's awful Izzy/they did that.

And yes, I also agree about poverty, desperation etc. in theory. But I also remember people saying that they tended to exaggerate about their living situation/how poor they were. That they basically played it up for street cred. And I can believe that considering some of them had family around they could have (and did) stay with at times, all of them mooched off their girlfriends and probably spent most of their time living off their girlfriends or living at friend's places (Axl did that a lot apparently) and they even had someone washing and ironing their clothes for them, bringing them meals, etc. if Steven's mom is to be believed. Duff's life even seemed to relatively well-ordered, with his steady job as a cook and the apartment he shared with his girlfriend and so on. So not sure if I really buy into that whole poverty & despair story 100%

 

3 hours ago, stella said:

In terms of Axl and Slash at Tower, Marc Canter said they both did well at their jobs, and I would trust him there. And yeah, being night manager in retail might not be the most glamorous thing, but it does require someone to have been there for a while, and have built up some level of trust. Managers have tasks like supervising their colleagues, opening and closing the store, reconciling the registers and doing nightly money counts, etc. and they don't give that responsibility to everyone. 

And in terms of escorts, it can be also simply be a social thing with no ulterior motive. It can be because someone's lonely that night or wants to participate in a social event where couples are expected. Ever been on a cruise? They have (or used to have) men on staff who would dance with the women who didn't have a partner of their own. It wasn't for anything other than to have a social interaction for the night.

And...people can and do simply want to fuck around for the evening and not have any strings or relationship drama. No judgment there, as long as everyone's of age and consenting.

Beards are usually front and center. In the friends/acquaintance circles I've known about that were definitely beards, there was always a huge emphasis on playing up the relationship in public/around friends and family. It's usually way in excess of what one would expect. I've never seen Axl declaring his undying love or doing cheesy photo shoots with these women, so I doubt they're beards.

Oh yeah, now that you mention it, I do remember Marc saying they did well at their job.

I'm not sure Axl and Sasha ever fucked around much though. Never really got that impression, but what do I know. I do recall Axl saying that he "doesn't do that anymore" or something when talking about the sex and drugs part in "sex, drugs and rock n roll", so it's possible he lives a relatively celibate life these days. Depression or meds can have that effect on your libido.

 

3 hours ago, stella said:

I agree. I think the situation @Frey mentioned, where he was having his girlfriends make some side money, is possible, but that is still very exploitative. Especially since we know that at least one of the girls who ran with the band, Desi, was underage. It would certainly be another reason Izzy had no interest in talking with Marc Canter for his book, especially when he found out that Desi and some of the other early-days people were involved.

I get tired of the discussions about Axl's sexuality, too. For all we know he could be asexual or just uninterested in it now. Plenty of people seem not to GAF after their early relationships end and never pair up with anyone again.

Marilyn Manson has a long history of doing and saying things to shock people; by his own token he didn't even know Axl. He seemed to be put off by Axl being so forward about wanting to meet and work with him so the comment seems to have germinated from that.

That's actually what I found the most obnoxious about the Manson comment lol. Axl was probably just being enthusiastic and overly friendly in that boy-ish way he has. Just be flattered he likes you and move on, no need to turn it into a salacious story.

And yes, I think Izzy tries to avoid people like Desi and others like her at all costs these days (especially since Desi is still into drugs apparently?). From the bits and pieces we know, he seems to feel very uncomfortable about his past.

So I agree with this basically:

1 hour ago, Fourteenbeers said:

But seriously speaking, this "pimp" thing - I remember reading about it on Izzy's thread.  There was a suggestion that Izzy is so reclusive and avoids the limelight not only because of his personality, but also because of his past.  Somebody also suggested that he has made lots on songs about moving on etc. because the past bothers him. 

 I can't be objective, being a fan and all... but I don't believe for a second that he's proud of what he's done or that it wouldn't  bother him. 

1 hour ago, Fourteenbeers said:

About that interview..  Izzy referring to "selling girls" - I'm still mixed - was it  "I sold girls" or "we sold girls"`? I get the impression that he was not the only one who did that.

It's unclear from the context of the interview if he was only talking about himself or all of them. On the one hand, all of them were sleazy, so I wouldn't be surprised if the others were involved as well.

On the other hand, none of the others are as paranoid or uncomfortable about their past as Izzy, suggesting they don't have as much to hide. And the point @stella made about the other guys having known, (at least sort of) steady jobs some of the time, while Izzy never appeared to have one of these is suspicious as well.

 

3 hours ago, killuridols said:

Yeah, still some legal jobs are not what a mother would wish for any children

I'm not saying Axl was awful at his position in Tower Video but I don't think he held that one for too long. He was not interested in keeping any job like that. First he had Gina supporting him, then he had Erin working as a model to support both of them. And I think Steven was somewhat like that too. Probably, Izzy too.

In my opinion, all of them were scumbags using and abusing women in all shapes and forms... That's how things were back then, in that environment, in the sordid world of drugs and the night life. I'm not sure we can talk about poverty here. It was more of a choice, in my opinion. But at least they had a goal in mind that didn't involve being pimps and dealers for the rest of their lives. It seems drugs had not digged that deep in those brains. Usually drugaddicts never amount to anything, so these guys gotta be thankful of having a talent and drive that allowed them get rich soon and get out of that horrible scene.

Yes, I agree, but I never had any illusions about them all being awful people. I think they're an interesting study in redemption, personal growth, etc. though. Amazing what money, therapies, and some maturity can do for you.

 

 

 

Edited May 4, 2017 by Frey

[killuridols]

AXL:

killuridols:

 

 

[stella]

6 hours ago, Frey said:

Oh yeah, now that you mention it, I do remember Marc saying they did well at their job.

I'm not sure Axl and Sasha ever fucked around much though. Never really got that impression, but what do I know. I do recall Axl saying that he "doesn't do that anymore" or something when talking about the sex and drugs part in "sex, drugs and rock n roll", so it's possible he lives a relatively celibate life these days. Depression or meds can have that effect on your libido.

 

That's actually what I found the most obnoxious about the Manson comment lol. Axl was probably just being enthusiastic and overly friendly in that boy-ish way he has. Just be flattered he likes you and move on, no need to turn it into a salacious story.

 - or he could just lean asexual/aromantic at this point, which is legit for a lot of people. There have been plenty of people who have gone down different paths when they're adults, and it could be possible there's just no interest.

Yeah, the Manson comment reminded me of the way Kurt Cobain reacted to Axl. It was the same thing where Axl seemed to genuinely admire and like their music and want to work with them, and it just got thrown back in his face. In Lonn Friend's book he mentions that Nirvana weren't nice to him and it seemed like the same reason, that he was enthusiastic.

[beautifulanddamned]

Izzy said in an interview that he worked at a car wash in Indiana when he was 15 and at a few pizza joints. I don't know if the pizzeria jobs were back in Indiana or in Cali or both. He did say that he would leave the restaurant job early to go to shows so that indicates it might have been in LA. Duff also said he got Izzy a job at a call center he worked at when they first met, but that Izzy stopped showing up because he was already messed up on drugs. But by that time Izzy had been in LA for four years. In the LA Weekly article, Tavana writes that a source told him that Izzy first got into heroin around 1983. He came to LA in 1980. He must have done something. I don't think he arrived a full-fledged drug addict/pimp.   

It blows my mind that any young kid would have the balls to go out to a city like LA with no place to stay/ no job/ little money. Where do you go? What do you do? It would be so easy to be taken advantage of/ start taking advantage of other people. At least Axl had Izzy to look for. I wonder who Izzy knew when he very first went to LA? Anyone? Axl and Izzy's books would be so good, dammit. 

19 hours ago, Darkenchantress said:

I believe she is and she has actually tried to contact Izzy via Twitter not so long ago, say, for his birthday. She goes with a different name but she signed as "Dezi". The tweet is gone, though, in a very Stradlin style. 

That was Desi? Yikes, how did I miss that?!  She says in Canter's book that she had to get a fake ID so that she could strip in clubs to help support her and Izzy and the band. I can't even imagine what kind of life she's had.

The book The Sunset Strip Diaries was written by a girl in that scene- a few years after GNR hit it big and, although not a good book (it just... rambles), it describes the Sunset Strip lifestyle of the 80's and very early 90's in pretty good detail. That scene collected very damaged people. It was fueled by drugs (cocaine especially) alcohol, sex, youth and insecurity. Two things that really stood out to me from that book are that she says that by the time she turned 18 she started to age out- it was much harder to attract the guys because being underage had a huge cache to it. The younger the better for these assholes. A lot of the girls came from broken homes in the area and started hanging out on the strip when they were 14 or 15. The other thing that is consistent all through the book is the casual way sexual assault is treated. She talks about it a lot but in such a bizarre way- it's like, "We lost our friend Lucy for a while then found her at the Troubadour in the bathroom passed out with her panties around her ankles with a couple of guys standing over her so we took her to get some donuts and the donuts at this place were so good!" And you're reading it thinking, wait, what? If you are already damaged and addicted and treat sex that weirdly and casually, taking some money for your time might seem like a plausible next step. It's sick but you can see the series of events that leads to this crap.

[killuridols]

22 minutes ago, beautifulanddamned said:

The other thing that is consistent all through the book is the casual way sexual assault is treated. She talks about it a lot but in such a bizarre way- it's like, "We lost our friend Lucy for a while then found her at the Troubadour in the bathroom passed out with her panties around her ankles with a couple of guys standing over her so we took her to get some donuts and the donuts at this place were so good!" And you're reading it thinking, wait, what? If you are already damaged and addicted and treat sex that weirdly and casually, taking some money for your time might seem like a plausible next step. It's sick but you can see the series of events that leads to this crap.

wow

I guess that's the way it was back then and unfortunately, in my country, girls who get drunk or go out at night and are alone, get treated the same, even in 2017 with all the awareness we have about gender violence, gender abuse and so on.

Men do not respect anyone, but if you are a drunk or drugged female, they will read it as green light to abuse you, rape you, kidnap you or kill you.

The part of the book you quoted is also consistent with the Robert Williams painting used as cover for AFD and the lyrics to "Anything Goes":

Panties 'round your knees
With your ass in debris
Doin' dat grind
with a push and squeeze
Tied up, tied down,
up against the wall
Be my rubbermade baby
An' we can do it all

 

[Tori72]

50 minutes ago, beautifulanddamned said:

Izzy said in an interview that he worked at a car wash in Indiana when he was 15 and at a few pizza joints. I don't know if the pizzeria jobs were back in Indiana or in Cali or both. He did say that he would leave the restaurant job early to go to shows so that indicates it might have been in LA. Duff also said he got Izzy a job at a call center he worked at when they first met, but that Izzy stopped showing up because he was already messed up on drugs. But by that time Izzy had been in LA for four years. In the LA Weekly article, Tavana writes that a source told him that Izzy first got into heroin around 1983. He came to LA in 1980. He must have done something. I don't think he arrived a full-fledged drug addict/pimp.   

It blows my mind that any young kid would have the balls to go out to a city like LA with no place to stay/ no job/ little money. Where do you go? What do you do? It would be so easy to be taken advantage of/ start taking advantage of other people. At least Axl had Izzy to look for. I wonder who Izzy knew when he very first went to LA? Anyone? Axl and Izzy's books would be so good, dammit. 

That was Desi? Yikes, how did I miss that?!  She says in Canter's book that she had to get a fake ID so that she could strip in clubs to help support her and Izzy and the band. I can't even imagine what kind of life she's had.

The book The Sunset Strip Diaries was written by a girl in that scene- a few years after GNR hit it big and, although not a good book (it just... rambles), it describes the Sunset Strip lifestyle of the 80's and very early 90's in pretty good detail. That scene collected very damaged people. It was fueled by drugs (cocaine especially) alcohol, sex, youth and insecurity. Two things that really stood out to me from that book are that she says that by the time she turned 18 she started to age out- it was much harder to attract the guys because being underage had a huge cache to it. The younger the better for these assholes. A lot of the girls came from broken homes in the area and started hanging out on the strip when they were 14 or 15. The other thing that is consistent all through the book is the casual way sexual assault is treated. She talks about it a lot but in such a bizarre way- it's like, "We lost our friend Lucy for a while then found her at the Troubadour in the bathroom passed out with her panties around her ankles with a couple of guys standing over her so we took her to get some donuts and the donuts at this place were so good!" And you're reading it thinking, wait, what? If you are already damaged and addicted and treat sex that weirdly and casually, taking some money for your time might seem like a plausible next step. It's sick but you can see the series of events that leads to this crap.

 

18 minutes ago, killuridols said:

wow

I guess that's the way it was back then and unfortunately, in my country, girls who get drunk or go out at night and are alone, get treated the same, even in 2017 with all the awareness we have about gender violence, gender abuse and so on.

Men do not respect anyone, but if you are a drunk or drugged female, they will read it as green light to abuse you, rape you, kidnap you or kill you.

The part of the book you quoted is also consistent with the Robert Williams painting used as cover for AFD and the lyrics to "Anything Goes":

Panties 'round your knees
With your ass in debris
Doin' dat grind
with a push and squeeze
Tied up, tied down,
up against the wall
Be my rubbermade baby
An' we can do it all

 

This, both of you. Thanks for telling about the book, @beautifulanddamned. I didn't know that Desi was THAT young! Poor girl, really! 14 and 15 year old girls! ... This is quite sad and upsetting.

I always wondered how Izzy coped when he arrived as an 18year old, possibly alone in LA. I must have known someone. Still, it is really brave. It's not surprising at all that he landed in the gutter of the drug scene there, so far away from home or close and sensible friends. I also wonder what I was like for his parents to see their son go somewhere so far away from home at such a rather early age. Did he also have difficulties at home? Must have had, I'd say.

 

[MillionsOfSpiders]

2 minutes ago, Tori72 said:

 

This, both of you. Thanks for telling about the book, @beautifulanddamned. I didn't know that Desi was THAT young! Poor girl, really! 14 and 15 year old girls! ... This is quite sad and upsetting.

I always wondered how Izzy coped when he arrived as an 18year old, possibly alone in LA. I must have known someone. Still, it is really brave. It's not surprising at all that he landed in the gutter of the drug scene there, so far away from home or close and sensible friends. I also wonder what I was like for his parents to see their son go somewhere so far away from home at such a rather early age. Did he also have difficulties at home? Must have had, I'd say.

 

I also wonder what Izzys mother must've thought of all that, I know his dad was long gone before he went out to LA, but where's his mum in all of this. I'm not damning her anything here but if it were my child who left home that young I'd track them down 

[Tori72]

1 minute ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

I also wonder what Izzys mother must've thought of all that, I know his dad was long gone before he went out to LA, but where's his mum in all of this. I'm not damning her anything here but if it were my child who left home that young I'd track them down 

Yes me too. Still, it's not only the mothers. No matter where the Dad was. He's still a dad and can / should have been equally worried. So yeah, I wonder what they did and how they react to this. Obviously not too much, otherwise Izzy would have developed differently, wouldn't he?

Same questions goes for the other guys as well. What happend to Duff and Slash to loose themselves that much in drugs and substances? I wonder about this, whether this curiosity for drugs is related to how safe and loved you feel at home (or what and if parents can do anything about it). But that might derail this thread to much so just take it as a footnote.

[beautifulanddamned]

2 minutes ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

I also wonder what Izzys mother must've thought of all that, I know his dad was long gone before he went out to LA, but where's his mum in all of this. I'm not damning her anything here but if it were my child who left home that young I'd track them down 

It was a very different time, though. Remember Izzy didn't have a permanent address or even a phone- he said he just used payphones. There was no internet. It wouldn't have been easy to track him down. And he always seemed to respect his mom. I bet he called her occasionally and made it seem like everything was fine- she wouldn't have known any better. 

Slash said that Izzy's dad came and got him when he bottomed out on drugs and Izzy said that he detoxed at his mom's house.  

I think he came from a pretty average family- the divorce might have hurt, but lots of kids have divorced parents. Izzy just seemed to lose his damn mind in the environment he found himself in when he got to LA. 

[killuridols]

11 minutes ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

I also wonder what Izzys mother must've thought of all that, I know his dad was long gone before he went out to LA, but where's his mum in all of this. I'm not damning her anything here but if it were my child who left home that young I'd track them down 

I think we are in sexist territory again...

Parents usually don't fear for their male children when they go out or travel alone or move out from home. With females is different and I guess that back then in the 70's or 80's, things were not as shitty as they are now. Also, not many ways to track them down without cellphones and Internet, especially if they didn't have a steady place to stay.

[Alja]

18 minutes ago, Tori72 said:

Same questions goes for the other guys as well. What happend to Duff and Slash to loose themselves that much in drugs and substances? I wonder about this, whether this curiosity for drugs is related to how safe and loved you feel at home (or what and if parents can do anything about it). But that might derail this thread to much so just take it as a footnote.

If I had answer, why Axl did not loose himself in drugs like rest of the people around...

Both Duff and Slash said that drugs somehow "treated" their problems, Duff (used to) have panic attacks since teenager (at first he was medicated with his doc in Seattle with amount of sedatives which is now unimaginable), he started to drink (not mention amount and variety of sedative prescription drugs which they were able to get) and later found out that he can drink even more with coke. He was not as curious type as Slash to try everything available and he never went for intravenous application. Slash, on the other side, liked to be social but on the other side he was incredibly shy and heroin made him somehow easy going also with music. And discovered dope high. I think he mentioned in his bio that it was Izzy who gave him dope for the first time. Izzy was the "level type" of junkie, maintaining constant level of drug but not getting too much high (same style as Keith Richards, for example). It is more sustainable and lower risk than type of junkie who goes for highs - like Slash (or Nikki Sixx) did. It is a very bad kind of vicious circle, often powered by boredom and no vision of future - and also being out of your head allows you to push problems in front of you and not to face them, which, as time goes, accumulate, so it`s more difficult and here we go. 

Some people are kind of cracked, it is not recognizable on the first sight. The drug makes illusion of the empty space in them being filled or an illusion that they work better on drugs. No one is pretty sure, it is a mix of genetics, personality, environment and exposure which causes addiction. Many junkies are people who self treat their mental diseases this unfortunate way. Also you can use illicit drugs for medical (controlled treatment in controlled environment) purposes and actually help people; problem is their reputation and maintaining, which hinders research and potential use.

If you are not GNR purists, read Nikki Sixx or Keith. They are really honest about drugs.

[beautifulanddamned]

1 hour ago, killuridols said:

wow

I guess that's the way it was back then and unfortunately, in my country, girls who get drunk or go out at night and are alone, get treated the same, even in 2017 with all the awareness we have about gender violence, gender abuse and so on.

It's the same here. You can't turn the television on without hearing about a fraternity or sports team being suspended because they have been raping drunk girls in a basement or something gross like that. 

1 hour ago, Tori72 said:

 

This, both of you. Thanks for telling about the book, @beautifulanddamned. I didn't know that Desi was THAT young! Poor girl, really! 14 and 15 year old girls! ... This is quite sad and upsetting.

 

Rita Rae Roxx's Once Upon a Rock Star is another book that talks about the scene if anyone is interested. Again, not a good book, per se. But she also talks about the nightly Sunset Strip crowd in the 80's. She also talks about being aged out at 18 (she lost her virginity to Billy Squires on a tour bus a few weeks after her 15th birthday).  She talks about sexual assault very casually as well, talks about being raped a couple of times but gives it no more importance than what she was wearing that night. Rita Rae Roxx was a groupie so her book is actually more interesting when it talks about her local concert scene (before she moved to LA).  Groupies and bands actually created a really strange,  symbiotic, dysfunctional family environment back then.  Amy Asbury, who wrote The Sunset Strip Diaries, was not a groupie, she was from LA and the Roxy/Cat House/Troubadour thing was her local "club scene." The book Hard Lessons by Michael Leahy talks about the local LA club scene as well, through the eyes of local kids from a very privileged, preppy high school.  

[Lumikki]

2 hours ago, Tori72 said:

Yes me too. Still, it's not only the mothers. No matter where the Dad was. He's still a dad and can / should have been equally worried. So yeah, I wonder what they did and how they react to this. Obviously not too much, otherwise Izzy would have developed differently, wouldn't he?

Same questions goes for the other guys as well. What happend to Duff and Slash to loose themselves that much in drugs and substances? I wonder about this, whether this curiosity for drugs is related to how safe and loved you feel at home (or what and if parents can do anything about it). But that might derail this thread to much so just take it as a footnote.

Izzy's family actually seems to be relatively normal and unproblematic (especially when compared to Axl's or Steven's). He gets along well with both of his parents these days as far as I know. The only thing that might have negatively impacted him (that we know about) was his parents getting divorced. But like @beautifulanddamned said, that happens to a lot of kids. I also remember reading somewhere that Izzy's mother never really got over her husband leaving the family and was very bitter about it, so that might have caused some tension as well. I also vaguely remember Izzy saying something about being annoyed by his father's comments when he was younger or something (I think it might have been about his father disapproving of Izzy wanting to become a professional musician). 

On the positive side, Izzy always seems to have been very fond of his mom. He got defensive over his mom when he was a kid in that one story Dano Kildsig shared, and also called her a saint or something later on in an interview where he talked about his mom always allowing him and Axl to make noise in their garage. I also remember us talking about Izzy's mom giving Axl a Christmas (or birthday?) present. And he also kicked drugs at his mom's house.

And as has been mentioned Izzy's dad was the one who rescued him from L.A. when he hit a low point (and then probably brought him to his mom).

That's basically all I know about Izzy's parents. All in all, they seem normal and caring enough to me. Everything else can probably explained by things being different back then. Less methods of communication = harder to check up on your kids. And I also get the impression that people were more innocent and trusting back then. You constantly hear all these stories about people hitch-hiking all over the country in the 70s and stuff like that.

 

4 hours ago, beautifulanddamned said:

It blows my mind that any young kid would have the balls to go out to a city like LA with no place to stay/ no job/ little money. Where do you go? What do you do? It would be so easy to be taken advantage of/ start taking advantage of other people. At least Axl had Izzy to look for. I wonder who Izzy knew when he very first went to LA? Anyone? Axl and Izzy's books would be so good, dammit.

Izzy's and Axl's late teenage years/early twenties and them making their way to L.A (and their struggle to get by there) is something I'm endlessly curious about. I have so many questions about that time. So yeah, write some books, goddamnit

Izzy has never talked much about these years, but the bits and pieces Axl has mentioned (like him riding buses for days when he was trying to find Izzy, the hitch-hiking rape/near-rape, his bus station troubles, sleeping in abandoned buildings or on the street, etc.) are enough to nearly give me an anxiety attack just thinking about it. I mean, we know what they looked liked back then, and thinking about these tiny, skinny small town kids trying to get by in a big city or getting into cars with strange people... it makes me shudder. I'd go all helicopter mom on their asses, but I grew up in a very different time than they and their parents did.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 5, 2017 by Lumikki