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GNR Women's Discussion - Part 2


alfierose

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2 minutes ago, Rovim said:

Is it mysterious though? I think some people are in too much pain, fed up from livin' the dream, there's no satisfaction for them perhaps anymore. But whatever the specific reason for it may be, it seems to be a fairly reasonable solution if you just don't want to do it anymore.

But controversial, I agree. I'm pro choice btw. You want to abort babies? fine by me, I'm sure you have your reasons. Same with people that really don't want to live anymore. Suicide is painless. It's a waste to others, but maybe it's masochistic to keep going when you're certain it's not for you anymore. But take this with a grain of salt, I'm not sure I am being accurate here.

Live and let live but also to die. Suicide sucks, but in a practical kinda way.

I say it is mysterious in a way that most successful suicides are never expected by the rest of people. Everybody always seem surprised by such a "sudden and unexpected" end.

Suicide is painless? ugh...no... ask the forensic police the things they have to see every time.

 

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32 minutes ago, killuridols said:

I'm sorry but after what happened to Chris Cornell, assuming anything certain about Axl (or anyone else) is just one big mistake!

Chris Cornell had everything the capitalist and patriarchal society commands you to have: fame, money, wife, beautiful children, success, a solid career, respect among his peers and probably a lot more, YET something led him to take his life away.

Suicide it is one of the most mysterious and controversial things a human being can commit and no one outside that person will ever understand the reasons. No one can predict it, no one can say "this person will never do that" or "I will never do that".

I have dealt with suicidal thoughts before, like many many people out there, but I've never talked about it to anyone in my family or friends or nothing. I kept them to myself because somehow I was never sure I really wanted to act upon these thoughts. I know sometimes they come because I'm going under huge stress or huge sadness and there are other times when I just never think about it at all.

In those moments of despair, you can only think of yourself and the pain that is hurting you and how you just want it to go away. Sometimes the pain is too hard to deal with and I've always thought that, in my case, if I have had something (a weapon) at hand to do it, when the thoughts were haunting me, I would have done it in the blink of an eye.... and then I would have regretted.... but it would have been too late....:unsure:

Can't talk for the rest of the suicidal people or people with suicidal thoughts... I just imagine that no one wants to do that for real and that it only takes a pulsion of death to push you do it. Some people have a greater pulsion of death than pulsion of life. I don't know why. Maybe depression, maybe just sadness, maybe a fucked up life.

Our future is always uncertain and none of us can know what's going on inside the head of somebody else, even when they look healthy, happy and have achieved many things in life.

I've been terribly shocked and hit by the death of Chris Cornell, like I have not been with any recent passing of other artists. I only remember being miserable to this extent with the passing of Shannon Hoon, when I was just a teenager. It is strange because I was not a huge fan of Chris, but I knew enough about him to be able to understand his place in rock music.

My fear for Axl's life has been there ever since Kurt Cobain killed himself, another terrible thing that happened when I was a teen. But it didn't move me as much as Shannon's death or like the fear I've felt for one day waking up to the sad news of Axl be gone that way.

Last year, at the China Exchange talk, the guy asked him if he was afraid of death and Axl first responded with a facial expression as in doubt of what would be the best answer for that and then he let it slide that he is "usually trying to survive in some way".

I'm not sure if Axl considers surviving a negative or positive thing but to me, the meaning of surviving it is related to a constant struggle or battle of the living to win over death. Maybe we are all surviving after all, until we lose our battle and just have to go.

 

I was never suicidal, I was just talking with people who were, it`s strange. (some of them massive GNR fans, btw.)

I keep my fingers crossed really tight that Axl still believes in that soul wandering concept and that you`ll have to cope with unsolved problems eventually in any next life. That might be really protecting fro pulling the trigger. 

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9 minutes ago, Kris_1989 said:

 

 

------

@Rovim

You say that like people who are in that state are rational enough to make that decision. They aren't. When you're suicidal you just want the pain to stop at any cost. You aren't thinking clearly and have no business making any decisions. Especially permanent ones about your life. :facepalm:

But what about Kamikaze pilots? you talk about people like they're all the same and there's always a better solution no matter who you are. Some people do think clearly and they do it. It's fucked, but it's kinda taboo as a subject, can't really explain it without getting yellow palms.

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Just now, Rovim said:

But what about Kamikaze pilots? you talk about people like they're all the same and there's always a better solution no matter who you are. Some people do think clearly and they do it. It's fucked, but it's a taboo subject, can't really explain it without getting yellow palms.

You really think Kamikaze pilots are mentally stable? C'mon... :lol:

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12 minutes ago, Kris_1989 said:

I've been thinking about his death a lot as well and I wish I could say something to comfort you, but I don't think there's anything any of us could say to explain what happened. Suicide is complicated and far from being black and white.

First and foremost, we don't know what was going on behind closed doors. There could have been family issues that sent him on a spiral. Or he could of had a chemical imbalance causing the depression. Or maybe he was bi-polar and was going through an extreme low when he made the choice he made. I don't want to armchair diagnose him especially because at the end of the day those are questions that only Chris would be able to answer.

In regards to Axl and the China exchange quote, I'll use my own experiences to try and explain what I think he meant... When I was 8, I was being physically abused and it pushed me to the point where I very suicidal. Luckily I was taken out of the abusive situation within a year but my depression and suicidal thoughts continued despite the fact that I had everything that people say you need... food, shelter, family, you name it... And now, many years later, it's still something that I have to work at every day to maintain stability. I work at it every day because I want to survive. If Axl's situation is similar to mine (long term depression) that could be what he meant. You have to take it day by day and "just try to survive in some way"

Yeah, I'm pretty aware that I will never know his reasons... unless he's left a letter or something... and even then, there's nothing we can do about it. I am not being in denial of what happened. I know it happened and that will be it.

About Axl's words... yes, I think he could mean it that way most likely... and I added the other possibility because maybe he thinks that life in general it is a daily struggle or the fight of the living to continue to live in spite of obstacles and problems. Like videogames made it popular to "lose lives" when you do not score whatever task you are supposed to complete in a video storyline. When you lose all of your lives then you die. Sometimes you are given an extra life but eventually, the machine will win you over.

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5 minutes ago, marlingrl03 said:

Why would they be prescribing him Ativan when he has a history of depression? :facepalm: I swear these doctors need their prescription pads taken away.

1 minute ago, killuridols said:

Yeah, I'm pretty aware that I will never know his reasons... unless he's left a letter or something... and even then, there's nothing we can do about it. I am not being in denial of what happened. I know it happened and that will be it.

About Axl's words... yes, I think he could mean it that way most likely... and I added the other possibility because maybe he thinks that life in general it is a daily struggle or the fight of the living to continue to live in spite of obstacles and problems. Like videogames made it popular to "lose lives" when you do not score whatever task you are supposed to complete in a video storyline. When you lose all of your lives then you die. Sometimes you are given an extra life but eventually, the machine will win you over.

I wasn't trying to say you were in denial, sorry if it came across that way.

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2 minutes ago, Kris_1989 said:

Why would they be prescribing him Ativan when he has a history of depression? :facepalm: I swear these doctors need their prescription pads taken away.

I know...it's just not looking good at all. So tragic. :(

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20 minutes ago, Kris_1989 said:
28 minutes ago, marlingrl03 said:

Why would they be prescribing him Ativan when he has a history of depression? :facepalm: I swear these doctors need their prescription pads taken away.

Yeah, I read his wife's statement in the other thread. People there say that this medication is pretty heavy and can affect consciousness.

The possibility of the suicide not having been a "conscious" choice but due to the side effects of some anti-anxiety drug makes it even more tragic...

Edited by Blackstar
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I am also very saddend and shocked about Chris' death and I am really lost for words here because what I could say sounds so shallow even though I mean it. It is heartbreaking what depression and (the supposedly wrong medication) can do to a person who seems to be having it all. Family, a work he loved, about to do more creative work, plans with family and work, talked to his wife, bandmates and friends, all within the hour after the gig and his death. It is ... ugh ... so sad. I am deeply shocked by suicide because there is always a reason, many reasons to live and there are most always people who love you. 

Fact is, I am also being very reminded of two friends of mine I had to let go to depression and suicide and this is one of the saddest and painful things in life. Sometimes suicide doesn't come as a suprise, sometimes it does. 

I cannot possibly say anything about Axl because how? I know nothing. Everything you guys say, @killuridols and @Kris_1989, is very true to me too. This is only the internet and we will possibly never meet but if I could I would reach out to you now to comfort and console you. Death and suicide are painfull disturbing, frightening and reminding us of so many things that are deeply true and important to us in our own lives, whatever that indivdually may be. It is very difficult to deal with that and in that respect we are all but survivors.

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23 minutes ago, Kris_1989 said:

I wasn't trying to say you were in denial, sorry if it came across that way.

It's all good.... I've been in this terrible mood for days now...:unsure:

----

I want to share this text by Albert Camus. It is an excerpt and you can read the rest in the link below. I read it when I was 16 years old and it marked me for life. I hope you like it if you have not read it before:

An Absurd Reasoning

Absurdity and Suicide

"There is but one truly serious philosophical problem, and that is suicide. Judging whether life is or is not worth living amounts to answering the fundamental question of philosophy. All the rest — whether or not the world has three dimensions, whether the mind has nine or twelve categories — comes afterwards. These are games; one must first answer. And if it is true, as Nietzsche claims, that a philosopher, to deserve our respect, must preach by example, you can appreciate the importance of that reply, for it will precede the definitive act. These are facts the heart can feel; yet they call for careful study before they become clear to the intellect.

[...]

Suicide has never been dealt with except as a social phenomenon. On the contrary, we are concerned here, at the outset, with the relationship between individual thought and suicide. An act like this is prepared within the silence of the heart, as is a great work of art. The man himself is ignorant of it. One evening he pulls the trigger or jumps. Of an apartment-building manager who had killed himself I was told that he had lost his daughter five years before, that he had greatly changed since, and that the experience had “undermined” him. A more exact word cannot be imagined. Beginning to think is beginning to be undermined. Society has but little connection with such beginnings. The worm is in man’s heart. That is where it must be sought. One must follow and understand this fatal game that leads from lucidity in the face of existence to flight from light.

There are many causes for a suicide, and generally the most obvious ones were not the most powerful. Rarely is suicide committed (yet the hypothesis is not excluded) through reflection. What sets off the crisis is almost always unverifiable. Newspapers often speak of “personal sorrows” or of “incurable illness.” These explanations are plausible. But one would have to know whether a friend of the desperate man had not that very day addressed him indifferently. He is the guilty one. For that is enough to precipitate all the rancors and all the boredom still in suspension.

But if it is hard to fix the precise instant, the subtle step when the mind opted for death, it is easier to deduce from the act itself the consequences it implies. In a sense, and as in melodrama, killing yourself amounts to confessing. It is confessing that life is too much for you or that you do not understand it. Let’s not go too far in such analogies, however, but rather return to everyday words. It is merely confessing that that “is not worth the trouble.” Living, naturally, is never easy. You continue making the gestures commanded by existence for many reasons, the first of which is habit. Dying voluntarily implies that you have recognized, even instinctively, the ridiculous character of that habit, the absence of any profound reason for living, the insane character of that daily agitation, the uselessness of suffering.

[...] Men who die by their own hand consequently follow to its conclusion their emotional inclination. Reflection on suicide gives me an opportunity to raise the only problem to interest me: is there a logic to the point of death? I cannot know unless I pursue, without reckless passion, in the sole light of evidence, the reasoning of which I am here suggesting the source. This is what I call an absurd reasoning. Many have begun it. I do not yet know whether or not they kept to it.

https://thefloatinglibrary.com/2009/04/20/suicide-the-one-truly-serious-philosophical-problem-camus/

 

Edited by killuridols
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Thanks, @killuridols, I love Albert Camus and I read this text when I was about 16 as well. I truly found consolation in the thought that the thing to pursue life and find out whether it is worth living or not is an absurdity, something you cannot solve with logical reasoning. Another text I particularly loved with 16 was Camus' The Myth of Sisyphos.

On a personal level, to deal with death by suicide, it was important to me to accept that this was the person's choice. At least at that moment and probably to many moments before when he or she didn't follow the urge to end it. It is important to accept a persons free will and let her/him go with that. I hope this doesn't cause a huge discussion and misunderstanding here. I read in the other thread that acceptance of a suicide is difficult or impossible to a lot of people and I understand it. Probably everyone has to find his or her own position towards those questions.

 

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1 minute ago, Tori72 said:

Thanks, @killuridols, I love Albert Camus and I read this text when I was about 16 as well. I truly found consolation in the thought that the thing to pursue life and find out whether it is worth living or not is an absurdity, something you cannot solve with logical reasoning. Another text I particularly loved with 16 was Camus' The Myth of Sisyphos.

On a personal level, to deal with death by suicide, it was important to me to accept that this was the person's choice. At least at that moment and probably to many moments before when he or she didn't follow the urge to end it. It is important to accept a persons free will and let her/him go with that. I hope this doesn't cause a uge discussion and misunderstanding here. I read in the other thread that acceptance of a suicide is difficult or impossible to a lot of people and I understand it. Probably everyone has to find his or her own position towards those questions.

Personally, I don't know if I am for or against it because as I said before, I will never be able to deny my own suicidal thoughts and those times when I truly wanted to be gone and sometimes I still have that feeling. Or some idea I've been cultivating lately that it is me not wanting to live past 50.

Like Rovim said before, this is similar to abortion, there are people who are pro-choice and others who stand against it because they think there are alternatives and solutions for the problems people deal with.

There's one thing I am almost certain in most cases and that is that if the suicidal person was offered a solution, a clear way out to what's affecting them, they would never pick suicide instead of that hand of help. The thing is that when you reach that huge moment of dispair is already too late to be offering solutions. I dont know... some suicides are crafted with months of anticipation and others just happen like that, but the both grow in the obscurity of one's soul, never at the light of other people.

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Thank you for sharing that, @killuridols. We studied Albert Camus a little bit while I was in high school but that particular piece was new to me.

1 hour ago, Tori72 said:

On a personal level, to deal with death by suicide, it was important to me to accept that this was the person's choice. At least at that moment and probably to many moments before when he or she didn't follow the urge to end it. It is important to accept a persons free will and let her/him go with that. I hope this doesn't cause a huge discussion and misunderstanding here. I read in the other thread that acceptance of a suicide is difficult or impossible to a lot of people and I understand it. Probably everyone has to find his or her own position towards those questions.

I agree. But if this does turn out to be the medication, and not his own choice, that makes it harder for me.

Shouldn't his physician be held responsible in some way? These deaths are completely avoidable and I think there needs to be stricter regulations put in place. Kaiser for example (a hospital in my area) will not allow certain medications to be prescribed if the patient has a history of depression. I just feel like that should be the standard at this point. :no:

54 minutes ago, killuridols said:

There's one thing I am almost certain in most cases and that is that if the suicidal person was offered a solution, a clear way out to what's affecting them, they would never pick suicide instead of that hand of help. The thing is that when you reach that huge moment of dispair is already too late to be offering solutions. I dont know... some suicides are crafted with months of anticipation and others just happen like that, but the both grow in the obscurity of one's soul, never at the light of other people.

I completely agree.

-----

Have any of you ever seen the documentary 'The Bridge'?

Spoiler

 

It's a bit controversial and very hard to watch but it really does shed some light on the suicide thought process.

Edited by Kris_1989
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11 minutes ago, killuridols said:

 

There's one thing I am almost certain in most cases and that is that if the suicidal person was offered a solution, a clear way out to what's affecting them, they would never pick suicide instead of that hand of help. The thing is that when you reach that huge moment of dispair is already too late to be offering solutions. I dont know... some suicides are crafted with months of anticipation and others just happen like that, but the both grow in the obscurity of one's soul, never at the light of other people.

This.

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From what I read, Chris told his wife that he had taken two pills of that medication... like an extra dosis :unsure:

Not sure if the doctor is to blame for the misuse of a medication. They all come with a booklet that warns you about overdosing.

What sucks is that he was the one handling the medication instead of having someone administrating the dosis and keeping it away from him.

Oh @Kris_1989, I have not seen that documentary! Thank you for sharing. I will bookmark it so to watch it later.

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13 hours ago, dgnr said:

 

@SerenityScorp, sorry, wrong info. The story Gina tells is that she left Axl after he actually moved in with Slash. Probably when Axl moved to Slash's house. The buying a house with Slash thing is a different story, I don't know where that comes from.

The source of the "Axl wanting to buy a house with Slash" story was an old Slash interview quoted in one of Mick Wall's books. I think. The person who shared that story mentioned that in the old thread somewhere, it should be easy to find if you search for the right key words.

 

3 hours ago, killuridols said:

 

Last year, at the China Exchange talk, the guy asked him if he was afraid of death and Axl first responded with a facial expression as in doubt of what would be the best answer for that and then he let it slide that he is "usually trying to survive in some way".

 

That answer stood out to me as well when I watched the CE interview.

It did (or does) make me think that he's still struggling with various issues and taking things one day at a time.

 

 

 

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On 2017-05-18 at 1:50 PM, Frey said:

Just goes to show you can never really know how much someone is really struggling and suffering inside. He seemed fine, even his wife swore he wasn't depressed earlier.

 

Obviously Slash would disapprove of anyone getting in the way of his and Axl's relationship, right @SerenityScorp?

Seriously though, can you blame Slash (or any of the other guys)? :lol:

I mean, that woman is awful. I don't understand how anyone could be into her. She has the most off-putting personality and her looks are pretty off-putting too (speaking for myself here, I realize she's considered oh so beautiful by many people for whatever reasons I can't understand, but I find her pretty ugly and unattractive).

She's certainly a strong contender for the title of "Most horrible Guns WAG" (probably even beating Perla and Angela Nicoletti).

 

 

 

 

Funny stuff (slash's quote).  I did think SS was beautiful in the early nineties, I particularly remember an Almay print commercial that she looked stunning in and being excited that her and Axl were dating.  She seems to be pretty rude and spoiled though and at least two of her sons seem like entitled little assholes.  

I did happen to catch catch her on an old episode of law and order criminal intent recently.  I didn't know she had tried acting?

Edited by Kira
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On 2017-05-18 at 3:41 PM, dgnr said:

Oh god, I hadn't internet connection all day and just got home and heard this. Shit. How tragic, really sad news :(

It is really sad.  Of all the stars of that era, he seemed one of the most even keeled.  However, when I look at any recent photos of him, his eyes look troubled.  

It's hard to believe we have lost so many, but still have all the original GNR members.

 

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