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GNR Women's Discussion - Part 2


alfierose

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39 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

I have speculated about what was behind Axl's behavior in other cases, but the OIAM story is the one of two things that I still can't come up with an explanation for (the other is the lawsuit against Stephanie). What puzzles me is not that he wrote it, but the fact that he thought he could get away with it and didn't expect such reaction (if he did expect it, he would have dealt with it differently). That was plain stupid; there was a debate in the old thread about the level of his intelligence, but I think we all agree that he's not stupid. Could he have been so delusional to believe that the last verse would be enough for the public to understand what was in his head (which he didn't see as wrong at the time)? I don't know... :shrugs:

I think that's the best explanation you're gonna get for his behavior. He doesn't live in this world or he's too shielded, I don't know, it is visible he lacks contact with "real people". His world is too insular, limited to Beta and her offspring. 

His delusion shows up in a good number of answers he's given in different interviews. Especially those in the 80s and 90s. His justification of being late changes from one to another. He's never admitted any mistakes. The St. Louis riot is one big fallacy... Well, that Stephanie Seymour lawsuit clearly shows the guy had no fucking clue about anything. Also when he says in the video that Dylan is a person he's not allowed to see and he doesn't understand why... :facepalm: or when he complained about Erin not giving a damn about the Oklahoma attacks and he had to be hearing her stuff in court implying there were more important things going on in the country at the moment... The explanations on why he started wearing a Charles Manson tshirt, the song he recorded and how he compares himself to Manson..... Man, I just can't even.. :shrugs:

As for OIAM, I don't buy any of the things he came up with to try to justify that aberration. It would have been more honest to say that he did believe in all of that at some point in his life although I understand that admitting to being a racist and homophobe is not the best idea but I really can't find a way to justify those verses, not even in an artistic way.

I can't sing that song. I can't hear it. I skip it all the time. I can't begin to pronounce those words. It is just not in me to say or even think of verbalizing them. And look, I'm not directly affected by those words, I don't belong to any of those groups but I feel bad from just thinking about it.

Besides, he sings those verses with such hate,,rage in his voice, the emphasis is prominent when he pronounces every word. I just can't do it. I can't imitate that. So many times I've wondered how damaged you can be to sing something like that with such a passion.

This song should be retired from GNR discography for the good of humanity. It is simply wrong from all perspectives. Not a piece of art. It is not art, it is meant to harm and shame people. Not good at all.

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On the subject of OIAM....please forgive me if I sound redundant, but when I was younger I couldn't understand why he would say those things about me...not me personally, but me as a person who belonged to a certain group of people. It was hard enough growing up in my skin to begin with and this band was my escape. Hearing those lyrics though, made me for a split second think twice about being a fan if he felt that way. At first I tried to give the benefit of the doubt that he was drawing from the dictionary definition (yes the word is in Webster's dictionary) of the word and not using it as a true racial slur....and that was a tough process to muddle through.

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30 minutes ago, Rocketqueen76 said:

On the subject of OIAM....please forgive me if I sound redundant, but when I was younger I couldn't understand why he would say those things about me...not me personally, but me as a person who belonged to a certain group of people. It was hard enough growing up in my skin to begin with and this band was my escape. Hearing those lyrics though, made me for a split second think twice about being a fan if he felt that way. At first I tried to give the benefit of the doubt that he was drawing from the dictionary definition (yes the word is in Webster's dictionary) of the word and not using it as a true racial slur....and that was a tough process to muddle through.

I am sure you have seen the interview where he explains that was not meant as a racial slur at all... it was directed toward people acting a certain way not against skin color.  But I can totally understand why you felt that way.  :hug:

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19 minutes ago, BlueJean Baby said:

I am sure you have seen the interview where he explains that was not meant as a racial slur at all... it was directed toward people acting a certain way not against skin color.  But I can totally understand why you felt that way.  :hug:

As @Blackstar pointed out, many many hip-hop artists use the word as a term of endearment....it's not cool in my book and honestly I wish my young brothas and sistas would get out of the habit of saying the word period.

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LOL at the usual excuse racists pull out when they have to justify their usage of the N word :lol:

"ohhh, no, it's not meant to hurt a whole race, just a handful of people who act like assholes!" :facepalm:

The flaw logic behind it is soooo fail. Why would anyone associate the color of skin with whatever asshole attitude some people have if they didn't mean to make a racial remark?

If someone is an asshole they will be asshole regardless of race, gender, age, social status. You don't need to point out the color of skin. Stopping there is what makes it racist and nothing can justify its use. It screams racism in all corners. 

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5 hours ago, Blackstar said:

Same here. Last night there wasn't much going on in the thread, and when I logged in today I saw there were 5-6 pages to catch up with, wondering what happened. Then I went through the pages and... :huh::wacko: Thanks for summing/wrapping it up.

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@marlenaire, welcome to the thread, but I have to agree with what @stella, @Rocketqueen76, @MillionsOfSpiders, @killuridols, @Frey and others said in regards to "diagnosing"/profiling someone you don't know. In addition to all that: even in "armchair diagnosis" terms (i.e. "I've read some psychology books and some interviews"), Axl doesn't fit in the narcissist profile (I'm talking about the disorder, because, as @stella pointed out, people use this word in everyday language to simply describe a self-centered person - and this can apply to many rockstars, mainly singers). For example, you mentioned that one of the main characteristics of a narcissist is pathological lying. Axl hasn't shown any signs of this trait and no one who knows him has accused him of it; on the contrary, Slash has said that Axl is the most honest person he's ever known (in the sense that he believes what he says as being the truth) and Duff has said that Axl just can't lie. There's a big difference between being delusional about some things and being a pathological liar.

----

A note on diagnosing/profiling historical figures: it can be very interesting and fascinating and I like this kind of shit, but, apart from it being problematic and disputable by default as it's done posthumously, it can also be misleading when it's used as a prominent "tool" for interpreting complicated historical events, thus overestimating the role of personality in history. Nazism, the Holocaust and WWII didn't happen because of Hitler's potential mental disorders, drug use or whatever.

Of course they've met a lot of people, including gay people. They had even back in the day, but still they, especially Axl, didn't get these things.

As someone aptly pointed out in another thread, Axl handed OIAM to the label knowing that David Geffen was gay and most likely not minding it at all; similarly he didn't mind Elton John and Freddie Mercury (both of whom he openly admired) being gay, while at the same time he insisted on releasing that song. He didn't seem to understand that the song would be offensive and hurtful to whole groups of people (including people he liked and admired) as well as that if you have a problem with specific people, you don't use derogatory words related to the color of their skin and sexual orientation as insults.

He also didn't seem to get the importance of context and perspective in regards to using those words. Even in the 80s, the "n" word wasn't acceptable when coming from a white person that way; John Lennon, Patti Smith and others had used it in their songs, but in a completely different context than Axl did (although nowadays even those songs could be considered offensive - wrongly imo), and hip hop artists have used it from a totally different perspective. "F*ggot" was widely used as a common insult back then or even as a joke (Axl had used it jokingly about himself and the band, when, in one of the 1987 shows, he introduced WTTJ as "a cover song written by a bunch of f*ggots called Guns N' Roses", although he didn't like it when people called him that); but again, and even though there was still prejudice and a lot of confusion/misinformation about AIDS, it wasn't acceptable coming from a straight man in that context.

I have speculated about what was behind Axl's behavior in other cases, but the OIAM story is the one of two things that I still can't come up with an explanation for (the other is the lawsuit against Stephanie). What puzzles me is not that he wrote it, but the fact that he thought he could get away with it and didn't expect such reaction (had he expected it, he would have dealt with it differently). That was plain stupid; there was a debate in the old thread about the level of his intelligence, but I think we all agree that he's not stupid. Could he have been so delusional to believe that the last verse would be enough for the public to understand what was in his head (which he didn't see as wrong at the time)? I don't know... :shrugs:

As for now, apart from what @Frey said about having too high expectations from these guys, there's still sexism in the entertainment world and  probably many of the people Axl and Slash interact with more often are of the same mentality as them (Baz is an example). So maybe they really don't get that today is not "okay" to use derogatory words or imagery related to gender/sexual orientation as a common insult or a joke; or maybe they get it, but they don't care to "adjust" seeing it as pc bullshit.

I agree that Duff is more mature and aware of these things. However, when asked how he felt about It's So Easy and the line "turn around bitch ..." now that he had teenage daughters and how he'd explain it to them, he answered "it's only rock 'n' roll and there's nothing to apologize for" or something like that (and it would have been hypocritical and inconsistent of him to say otherwise, since he's been playing this song not only with GnR, but also with VR and his solo projects). He seems to make exceptions when it comes to songs.

It's a distinction I agree with though: saying something in a song, i.e. expressing oneself through art, is different than saying the same in social media, in an interview or during an altercation; even for a song like OIAM, what Axl said at some point along the lines of "I used this song as a means to express my feelings at a certain time - I don't feel this way now so it doesn't represent me anymore" is something I can accept (although it doesn't change the fact that he once felt that way).

 

I agree with you.

OIAM is reason that Lies is the GnR album I have never bought on CD or mp3. When I heard it as a kid I remember feeling scared. Just...scared by those words.

I totally do get and accept that it was Axl's expressions and observations of how he felt at a specific point in time, in the language he would use then. I remember reading an interview somewhere where he said he would not write a song like that now. But I still don't feel good about hearing it.

I think another piece in this puzzle might be that Axl grew up very involved up in a religion that likely would not have been very kind toward gay people. While I am not familiar with Pentecostal doctrine on this specifically, we know that even today a lot of evangelical Christians are homophobic. Given that Axl has said that even looking at women in bikinis was considered wrong by his church, I would put money on a bet that they were not keen on homosexuality.

Add to the fact that the homophobia, open discrimination and violence against LGBT people were sadly very prevalent in a large portion of American society at that time, and it's pretty easy to guess that  a person growing up with homophobic views from church and home, in a small community where there might not have been a lot of diversity of viewpoints, probably wouldn't hear other perspectives very easily.

Today, someone growing up in a very socially conservative church probably does encounter other people in their schools, or online,  or in the media, who help change their perspective. Even some of the people from that infamous church that hates the LGBT community changed their views that way. But in the 70s and 80s? There wouldn't have been that outside influence. There were gay communities in places like LA and NYC, and books with gay characters, and some videos and TV shows obliquely had references - but outside of that? In most of middle America? Not so much. And people like Elton John and Freddie Mercury - and even Liberace - were not out of the closet, even if it was probably an open secret.

And even in major cities at that time there wasn't much stopping homophobia. I have gay family members who were beaten up several times.

For people who came from small cities and towns, like Axl and other rock singers: even after moving to a major city, interacting with people of all orientations...maybe it took a while to shake those deep-seeded attitudes. But it isn't a justification. At all.

OIAM was out around the same time that Sebastian Bach wore a shirt that said, "AIDS kills f*gs dead," and again, was puzzled by the outcry to it. As I recall from an interview he claimed that someone threw it onstage and he wore it without seeing what it said...which I don't think anyone actually believed. I was a kid and I remember watching that interview and thinking, "oh, come on."

In terms of sexism, Madonna recently won an award, and she did a speech where she pointed out a lot of the sexism in her industry- and she was absolutely right, IMHO. And I think ageism goes into that as well; women aren't supposed to age. There have been stories about how in the corporate world, women who are going gray are expected to dye their hair, that is the status quo - but it's not expected for corporate men. Madonna in her 50s has to work a lot harder at looking younger and maintaining a sexy young look than men of the same age - and the media seems twice as likely to point out any signs of aging and refer to her as "old" than they do to male performers of the same age. In Hollywood it's a hell of a lot easier for a man in his 50s, 60s and 70s to get roles where he has sex appeal, and there are plenty of men with gray hair...with women, not so much.

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21 hours ago, killuridols said:

Ahhhhh..... it could be that my expectations are too high but then when I think about it again, I think... Axl and Slash are not like my 75 years old aunt who lives in a small town and hardly ever gets out of it.

These guys, though in their 50s, have traveled the whole world several times. Traveling, interacting and getting to know other cultures, other people opens your mind even if you don't want to be open about new things.

They also work in entertainment, a field where thousands of people with different sexual preference work and interact. It'd be impossible to say Axl and Slash have not met gay people who are colleagues or employees or assistants, etc. You can be as old fashioned as you want to be but changes in society, at some point, also get to those who resist and if you resist too much then you're definitely a rookie and an asshole.

Regarding women, Axl has Beta, Vanessa, his sister... Doesn't he, at least, think of them? Isn't he grateful to these women in his life who have helped him when he was biting the dust? Not sure my expectations are too high when I'm asking that he just minds a bit more what he's saying if he's got some female in his life that he cares about. Now there's also Natalia and Maya Rose in his family. Come on, adult man, grow up and get rid of your misogyny for once and for all!

Duff is not like them because he has a lot of respect for his wife of 23 years and the daughters she gave him. Duff loves his children too much and thinks of, cares about them as females and human beings. He is in a complete different place than Axl. He's matured and evolved.

But that's just what I was trying to say- they've been around so many people, been to so many places, and yet, they still don't get it. Let's take Slash as an example again- he himself mentions growing up around tons of gay people in his book, his nanny/butler who takes (or took?) care of his kids/house is one of the most flamboyantly gay guys I've ever seen, and so on. He certainly doesn't lack exposure to gay people, he supports marriage equality, he's even fine with a gay guy raising his children. But he still uses f*aggot and gay to describe shit that he thinks is lame or uncool (I remember he did that in a rather recent -by GNR standards- interview for example) and either doesn't get or doesn't care why he shouldn't be saying stuff like that then. Same with the sexism issue- he has a steady girlfriend and two teenage (step) daughters to consider now, but that hasn't changed his behavior in any way (remember when Lucy called him out on it on Instagram? :lol:).

And I think it's similar with Axl. I'm pretty sure Axl doesn't think of himself as homophobic. In his mind, he's never beaten someone up for their sexual orientation (as he really wanted to point out once), some of his idols are gay, he probably knows some gay people and gets along with them, he's probably even in favor of marriage equality (most likely, since all the other guys in the band and the people in his entourage are), so he probably considers himself to be very open-minded and liberal on these issue (especially considering where he comes from and the views on the topic he was raised with).

I know their stupidity/stubbornness is frustrating for you, but this is unfortunately what most guys I know are like, whether they are 20 or 50 (though there is certainly more awareness of these issue among the younger generations)- they don't go around beating gay people up, they might be in favor of marriage equality, they might even be friends with some gay guys, so they don't think of themselves as homophobic and yet they don't think twice about using words like f*aggot and gay.

21 hours ago, killuridols said:

You're the only person who figured this out so far :lol:

Yes, I did mean it that way but not because I want to make fun of it. I do really believe in this theory because I had detected a pattern with other people close to the band. Slash, the one who cannot be mentioned, the "devil", the "cancer", was a deep wound in Axl's body and touching the topic with him (or his camp) I think it literally hurt him (knowing how sensitive he's about everything). 

Even more so, I think he was standing in same place as Slash when it came to saying shit about each other. Like Slash defended Axl from Scott Weiland by telling him something like "you don't get to badmouth Axl because you don't know him and never worked with him. I did, I have a right to say shit about him, you don't." Axl was acting the same way with Madison and everybody else who wanted to butt into his business with Slash.

It was like a territorial thing where he drew the boundaries of his battle and who could give an opinion and who couldn't. He wanted the fans out of it and according to him "truth would come out one day". We are still waiting for it but that's another story :P

 I agree with you.

I think Slash leaving hurt Axl more than anyone else leaving and it was an open wound for years and years, hence all of Axl's over-the-top reactions and extreme bitterness.

And yep, I've gotten the same impression about it being some kind of territorial thing where they both still felt really possessive about each other, event though they hadn't talked in years :lol::facepalm:

(And I can't wait for the day when Axl, Erin and everyone else who has promised us their side of the truth start talking. Might never happen, but if it does, this thread will have a field day :awesomeface:)

 

12 hours ago, Blackstar said:

Same here. Last night there wasn't much going on in the thread, and when I logged in today I saw there were 5-6 pages to catch up with, wondering what happened. Then I went through the pages and... :huh::wacko: Thanks for summing/wrapping it up.

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@marlenaire, welcome to the thread, but I have to agree with what @stella, @Rocketqueen76, @MillionsOfSpiders, @killuridols, @Frey and others said in regards to "diagnosing"/profiling someone you don't know. In addition to all that: even in "armchair diagnosis" terms (i.e. "I've read some psychology books and some interviews"), Axl doesn't fit in the narcissist profile (I'm talking about the disorder, because, as @stella pointed out, people use this word in everyday language to simply describe a self-centered person - and this can apply to many rockstars, mainly singers). For example, you mentioned that one of the main characteristics of a narcissist is pathological lying. Axl hasn't shown any signs of this trait and no one who knows him has accused him of it; on the contrary, Slash has said that Axl is the most honest person he's ever known (in the sense that he believes what he says as being the truth) and Duff has said that Axl just can't lie. There's a big difference between being delusional about some things and being a pathological liar.

Excellent point and I agree. NPD doesn't even really make sense as an armchair diagnosis, going by what we know.

 

12 hours ago, Blackstar said:

Of course they've met a lot of people, including gay people. They had even back in the day, but still they, especially Axl, didn't get these things.

As someone aptly pointed out in another thread, Axl handed OIAM to the label knowing that David Geffen was gay and most likely not minding it at all; similarly he didn't mind Elton John and Freddie Mercury (both of whom he openly admired) being gay, while at the same time he insisted on releasing that song. He didn't seem to understand that the song would be offensive and hurtful to whole groups of people (including people he liked and admired) as well as that if you have a problem with specific people, you don't use derogatory words related to the color of their skin and sexual orientation as insults.

He also didn't seem to get the importance of context and perspective in regards to using those words. Even in the 80s, the "n" word wasn't acceptable when coming from a white person that way; John Lennon, Patti Smith and others had used it in their songs, but in a completely different context than Axl did (although nowadays even those songs could be considered offensive - wrongly imo), and hip hop artists have used it from a totally different perspective. "F*ggot" was widely used as a common insult back then or even as a joke (Axl had used it jokingly about himself and the band, when, in one of the 1987 shows, he introduced WTTJ as "a cover song written by a bunch of f*ggots called Guns N' Roses", although he didn't like it when people called him that); but again, and even though there was still prejudice and a lot of confusion/misinformation about AIDS, it wasn't acceptable coming from a straight man in that context.

I have speculated about what was behind Axl's behavior in other cases, but the OIAM story is the one of two things that I still can't come up with an explanation for (the other is the lawsuit against Stephanie). What puzzles me is not that he wrote it, but the fact that he thought he could get away with it and didn't expect such reaction (had he expected it, he would have dealt with it differently). That was plain stupid; there was a debate in the old thread about the level of his intelligence, but I think we all agree that he's not stupid. Could he have been so delusional to believe that the last verse would be enough for the public to understand what was in his head (which he didn't see as wrong at the time)? I don't know... :shrugs:

As for now, apart from what @Frey said about having too high expectations from these guys, there's still sexism in the entertainment world and  probably many of the people Axl and Slash interact with more often are of the same mentality as them (Baz is an example). So maybe they really don't get that today is not "okay" to use derogatory words or imagery related to gender/sexual orientation as a common insult or a joke; or maybe they get it, but they don't care to "adjust" seeing it as pc bullshit.

I agree that Duff is more mature and aware of these things. However, when asked how he felt about It's So Easy and the line "turn around bitch ..." now that he had teenage daughters and how he'd explain it to them, he answered "it's only rock 'n' roll and there's nothing to apologize for" or something like that (and it would have been hypocritical and inconsistent of him to say otherwise, since he's been playing this song not only with GnR, but also with VR and his solo projects). He seems to make exceptions when it comes to songs.

You know, I truly believe Axl was naive/dumb enough that he didn't expect the kind of backlash OIAM received. As he stated, OIAM started out as a joke one night while hanging out with some other guys. And none of these guys were scholars or anything, they were street kids in the 80s, some of them (like Axl) with really conservative backgrounds. That's how they talked amongst themselves* and Axl probably figured the public would interpret it the same way- as just a naughty little song of "boys being boys" (listen to the audience when they played the song at CBGB's for example- there was nothing but giggling and tittering every time Axl said the F-word or the N-word, maybe that's the kind of reaction Axl expected from the public at large as well).

And then he tacked the verse at the end onto the song, figuring that would be enough of an explanation to cover his ass in case anyone might get offended after all. Or maybe he tacked that end verse on after the other guys (like Izzy) told him to change the lyrics. But Axl is a stubborn idiot, so he didn't change anything because he doesn't like being told what to do and in his deluded little mind the end verse probably really was enough of an explanation for him.

About Duff, yeah, iirc he tried to explain that with "it's just tongue in cheek, not to be taken seriously". He maneuvered himself into a bit of a shitty position there- one the one hand he loves being the educated and enlightened one in the bunch, on the other hand, songs like ISE have been a large part of his career (and he even named his book after the song), so he can't really denounce it. :lol:

*I have no doubt they were throwing an endless amount of homophobic and sexist expressions around when they were young street brats, but I hope they at least kept a tight lid on the racial slurs, considering they had Slash in the band, as well as other non-white people in their entourage (like Jack Lue for example).

 

8 hours ago, stella said:

I think another piece in this puzzle might be that Axl grew up very involved up in a religion that likely would not have been very kind toward gay people. While I am not familiar with Pentecostal doctrine on this specifically, we know that even today a lot of evangelical Christians are homophobic. Given that Axl has said that even looking at women in bikinis was considered wrong by his church, I would put money on a bet that they were not keen on homosexuality.

Add to the fact that the homophobia, open discrimination and violence against LGBT people were sadly very prevalent in a large portion of American society at that time, and it's pretty easy to guess that  a person growing up with homophobic views from church and home, in a small community where there might not have been a lot of diversity of viewpoints, probably wouldn't hear other perspectives very easily.
Today, someone growing up in a very socially conservative church probably does encounter other people in their schools, or online,  or in the media, who help change their perspective. Even some of the people from that infamous church that hates the LGBT community changed their views that way. But in the 70s and 80s? There wouldn't have been that outside influence. There were gay communities in places like LA and NYC, and books with gay characters, and some videos and TV shows obliquely had references - but outside of that? In most of middle America? Not so much. And people like Elton John and Freddie Mercury - and even Liberace - were not out of the closet, even if it was probably an open secret.

And even in major cities at that time there wasn't much stopping homophobia. I have gay family members who were beaten up several times.

For people who came from small cities and towns, like Axl and other rock singers: even after moving to a major city, interacting with people of all orientations...maybe it took a while to shake those deep-seeded attitudes. But it isn't a justification. At all.

OIAM was out around the same time that Sebastian Bach wore a shirt that said, "AIDS kills f*gs dead," and again, was puzzled by the outcry to it. As I recall from an interview he claimed that someone threw it onstage and he wore it without seeing what it said...which I don't think anyone actually believed. I was a kid and I remember watching that interview and thinking, "oh, come on."

Agree with all of that and yep, I'm pretty sure the Pentecostal folks don't look very favorably upon homosexuality.

On the racism issue though, I do remember Axl saying that he wasn't raised in a racist environment/family and that they didn't throw racist remarks around in his family or something like that.

As for Baz, yeah, I always thought his explanation for the shirt was hilarious as well (or rather that he expected anyone would believe that lol). Baz and his shirt are just another case like Axl's imo- young dumb guy in the 80s too dumb and clueless to realize that this shit will offend people, even though it's perfectly normal to talk like that amongst the people in his scoial circle.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Frey
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20 minutes ago, Frey said:

But that's just what I was trying to say- they've been around so many people, been to so many places, and yet, they still don't get it. Let's take Slash as an example again- he himself mentions growing up around tons of gay people in his book, his nanny/butler who takes (or took?) care of his kids/house is one of the most flamboyantly gay guys I've ever seen, and so on. He certainly doesn't lack exposure to gay people, he supports marriage equality, he's even fine with a gay guy raising his children. But he still uses f*aggot and gay to describe shit that he thinks is lame or uncool (I remember he did that in a rather recent -by GNR standards- interview for example) and either doesn't get or doesn't care why he shouldn't be saying stuff like that then. Same with the sexism issue- he has a steady girlfriend and two teenage (step) daughters to consider now, but that hasn't changed his behavior in any way (remember when Lucy called him out on it on Instagram? :lol:).

Yeah. Slash Instagram or Twitter is a pain in the ass :facepalm:

I follow him because I'm stupid enough to believe one day he's going to announce something interest about GN'R but 99% of his tweets are pure sexist trash. I wish there was a way that I could only get his "text" tweets and not the image ones. He's just too fucked up. This is why I was never that much of a fan of Slash, the person.. As a guitarist, I have nothing to complain about but it's the same as with Axl... they are frustrating as human beings and maybe it is wrong to have expectations of them being better because they're not here to be my role models but I consider them part of my life, I grew up with their songs and somehow you feel you know them when you've followed them for so long, and so you wish them good for their lives, you hope for them to show some evolution from the old days. The only one I see in this path is Duff... :shrugs:

39 minutes ago, Frey said:

And I can't wait for the day when Axl, Erin and everyone else who has promised us their side of the truth start talking. Might never happen, but if it does, this thread will have a field day :awesomeface:)

I feel this is going to happen only after Axl passing away... Unless something terrible occurs in the following years. If Axl and Slash break up again and this band goes to hell for good.

If not, we will have to wait for a long time. Who knows if we will still be around and the future of this thread is always unknown :ph34r:

44 minutes ago, Frey said:

I have no doubt they were throwing an endless amount of homophobic and sexist expressions around when they were young street brats, but I hope they at least kept a tight lid on the racial slurs, considering they had Slash in the band, as well as other non-white people in their entourage (like Jack Lue for example)

Yeah, that's for sure..... But I have doubts about the rest of the guys approving on OIAM. It looks like everybody, except Axl, could see the potential damage and they really didn't want to include the song in the album. But Axl must have threatened with leaving or some kind of shit like that so they had to put up with it, same with all the other things they disagreed about but had to shut up or King Axl wouldn't sing.

It's clear Axl imposed his view and ideas no matter what. OIAM is the first example of this, then we have 'My World' and the Charles Manson song.

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3 hours ago, killuridols said:

Yeah. Slash Instagram or Twitter is a pain in the ass :facepalm:

I follow him because I'm stupid enough to believe one day he's going to announce something interest about GN'R but 99% of his tweets are pure sexist trash. I wish there was a way that I could only get his "text" tweets and not the image ones. He's just too fucked up. This is why I was never that much of a fan of Slash, the person.. As a guitarist, I have nothing to complain about but it's the same as with Axl... they are frustrating as human beings and maybe it is wrong to have expectations of them being better because they're not here to be my role models but I consider them part of my life, I grew up with their songs and somehow you feel you know them when you've followed them for so long, and so you wish them good for their lives, you hope for them to show some evolution from the old days. The only one I see in this path is Duff... :shrugs:

I feel this is going to happen only after Axl passing away... Unless something terrible occurs in the following years. If Axl and Slash break up again and this band goes to hell for good.

If not, we will have to wait for a long time. Who knows if we will still be around and the future of this thread is always unknown :ph34r:

Yeah, that's for sure..... But I have doubts about the rest of the guys approving on OIAM. It looks like everybody, except Axl, could see the potential damage and they really didn't want to include the song in the album. But Axl must have threatened with leaving or some kind of shit like that so they had to put up with it, same with all the other things they disagreed about but had to shut up or King Axl wouldn't sing.

It's clear Axl imposed his view and ideas no matter what. OIAM is the first example of this, then we have 'My World' and the Charles Manson song.

Things have been quiet and relatively peaceful in the GNR world for a long time now. I feel like we're long over-due for some drama lol.

About the OIAM thing, I'm not sure he really had to threaten them or anything. He was probably just acting like a stubborn toddler again and being difficult and the other guys finally just threw their hands up in the air and were like "Whatever. But on your head be it."

Which seemed to be a general problem in this band: No one really qualified, able or willing to butt heads with Axl and reign him in a little. It's different now, because nowadays Slash and Duff are mature and sober enough to handle Axl. But back then... Izzy's reaction to conflicts of any kind is to just take off and he was a heroin junkie for many years, which also leads to passive behavior. Slash also prefers to avoid conflict and resorts to being passive-aggressive and manipulative instead. And again, heroin junkie. And Duff... Duff tried to or wanted to try to help Axl and deal with Axl-related problems sometimes, but in the end, he also had his own demons and just fell in line with Slash. And that only leaves Steven and Sorum... These two had the balls to take Axl on, but not the brains to do so in any way that would have actually worked or helped.

So basically there was not a single guy in the band who could have put Axl over his knee when he was misbehaving, figuratively speaking. (Though I have no doubt that some of you would just love to see Slash/Izzy/Duff literally putting Axl over their knees too :smiley-confused2:)

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Frey said:

So basically there was not a single guy in the band who could have put Axl over his knee when he was misbehaving, figuratively speaking. (Though I have no doubt that some of you would just love to see Slash/Izzy/Duff literally putting Axl over their knees too :smiley-confused2:)

:lol:

 

 

 

Zap him again, zap the son of a bitch again! 

:bitchfight:

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6 hours ago, Frey said:

But that's just what I was trying to say- they've been around so many people, been to so many places, and yet, they still don't get it. Let's take Slash as an example again- he himself mentions growing up around tons of gay people in his book, his nanny/butler who takes (or took?) care of his kids/house is one of the most flamboyantly gay guys I've ever seen, and so on. He certainly doesn't lack exposure to gay people, he supports marriage equality, he's even fine with a gay guy raising his children. But he still uses f*aggot and gay to describe shit that he thinks is lame or uncool (I remember he did that in a rather recent -by GNR standards- interview for example) and either doesn't get or doesn't care why he shouldn't be saying stuff like that then. Same with the sexism issue- he has a steady girlfriend and two teenage (step) daughters to consider now, but that hasn't changed his behavior in any way (remember when Lucy called him out on it on Instagram? :lol:).

.----

You know, I truly believe Axl was naive/dumb enough that he didn't expect the kind of backlash OIAM received. As he stated, OIAM started out as a joke one night while hanging out with some other guys. And none of these guys were scholars or anything, they were street kids in the 80s, some of them (like Axl) with really conservative backgrounds. That's how they talked amongst themselves* and Axl probably figured the public would interpret it the same way- as just a naughty little song of "boys being boys" (listen to the audience when they played the song at CBGB's for example- there was nothing but giggling and tittering every time Axl said the F-word or the N-word, maybe that's the kind of reaction Axl expected from the public at large as well).

----

On the racism issue though, I do remember Axl saying that he wasn't raised in a racist environment/family and that they didn't throw racist remarks around in his family or something like that.

As for Baz, yeah, I always thought his explanation for the shirt was hilarious as well (or rather that he expected anyone would believe that lol). Baz and his shirt are just another case like Axl's imo- young dumb guy in the 80s too dumb and clueless to realize that this shit will offend people, even though it's perfectly normal to talk like that amongst the people in his scoial circle.

ITA.

Slash vs. Axl on the issue of homophobia is puzzling for me. Unlike Axl, Slash DID grow up in a progressive environment, in a major city with an LGBT community, and one would have thought that would have fostered tolerance and greater sensitivity and awareness.

And Axl seems way ahead of Slash on this issue now - with the exception of the Madison rant, I don't think anyone's ever heard him using the words 'gay,' 'lesbian' or 'fa****t' in pejorative terms since OIAM. I do think in the years since OIAM Axl has probably progressed in this view, as well as others. When he did that Jimmy Kimmel interview he said that he generally tends to lean Democratic and would vote for Obama if he were voting. He's been pretty vocal, especially lately, about his opposition to the right and to right-wing politicians, even more than Slash has.

With racism -  I remember something similar, in that Axl said he wasn't raised in a racist environment. But I do think that it's probably relatively safe to assume that small-town Indiana was almost entirely white, and that one would not have necessarily come into a lot of contact with people of color. In all those school photos that have been posted, there isn't a single face that isn't white. I think that if one grows up in that environment, it's probably easier to be naive about the context and weight of certain words, as well as things that are considered micro-aggressions - for instance, immediately assuming an Asian or Indian person doesn't speak English or isn't American. In one of the interviews where Axl was talking about OIAM he mentioned that Black people use the word 'ni***r' all the time and it's not considered racist when they say it. I think that is an example of how he didn't necessarily understand the context of that usage.

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3 hours ago, Frey said:

Things have been quiet and relatively peaceful in the GNR world for a long time now. I feel like we're long over-due for some drama lol.

Noooo! No drama is the way we want to keep it after the last 30 years!! Unless it's Slaxl drama (and even then only involving hand-holding, walking and sunsets...:wub:;)).

3 hours ago, Frey said:

(Though I have no doubt that some of you would just love to see Slash/Izzy/Duff literally putting Axl over their knees too :smiley-confused2:)

 

Don't you know it!

6 hours ago, killuridols said:

 

I feel this is going to happen only after Axl passing away...

Sad thing to think about. I really hope for Axl's sake that it all gets some closure before that.

One thing I always have in my mind is what he said in the China Exchange interview when someone asked him if he planned to write a book like Duff and Slash. He said something like, "Yes I would like to, but there are too many legal complications" (I'm paraphrasing). I think it's a pity he won't go ahead (I mean, there were loads of legal implications for Slash and Duff's books but they wrote them anyway). I would love to hear what Axl has to say in his own book. Sure, it would probably be a bit mad and rambling and overlong but I think it would be good for him, ultimately, to get shit off his chest in the form of a book with his name (and only his name) on the cover. Possibly the legal reason isn't the only one, of course - I'm sure he knows himself that he would find the inevitable criticism of a book of his hard to take. 

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22 minutes ago, money honey said:

Noooo! No drama is the way we want to keep it after the last 30 years!! Unless it's Slaxl drama (and even then only involving hand-holding, walking and sunsets...:wub:;)).

Don't you know it!

Sad thing to think about. I really hope for Axl's sake that it all gets some closure before that.

One thing I always have in my mind is what he said in the China Exchange interview when someone asked him if he planned to write a book like Duff and Slash. He said something like, "Yes I would like to, but there are too many legal complications" (I'm paraphrasing). I think it's a pity he won't go ahead (I mean, there were loads of legal implications for Slash and Duff's books but they wrote them anyway). I would love to hear what Axl has to say in his own book. Sure, it would probably be a bit mad and rambling and overlong but I think it would be good for him, ultimately, to get shit off his chest in the form of a book with his name (and only his name) on the cover. Possibly the legal reason isn't the only one, of course - I'm sure he knows himself that he would find the inevitable criticism of a book of his hard to take. 

He's probably already on his 5th edition of his book! :lol:  I think maybe, he also had enough presence of mind over the years to know that to release any book at that time would probably drive an irreparable wedge between him and Slash, and just instinctively knew then (or now) was not the time.

The reason I think that is bc I keep a book of writings myself, and every now and then I will go back and read what I wrote a few years ago, going through different things, and I think Wow, I was really angry here, or Wow, I was in a very happy place here, or Wow, I was in a really dark place there..and am very glad that all those things I wrote were for my eyes only, because of how much I have changed and moved on from certain things.. Maybe Axl also now realizes that it is probably not a good idea to let others see certain things when they are highly emotional for you at the time, and so is just waiting for when he can write and publish things in a more objective manner.. Plus he wouldn't want to damage this newfound fragile peace they have found. This all pure conjecture on my part though of course. :P

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40 minutes ago, Whiskey Rose said:

He's probably already on his 5th edition of his book! :lol:  I think maybe, he also had enough presence of mind over the years to know that to release any book at that time would probably drive an irreparable wedge between him and Slash, and just instinctively knew then (or now) was not the time.

The reason I think that is bc I keep a book of writings myself, and every now and then I will go back and read what I wrote a few years ago, going through different things, and I think Wow, I was really angry here, or Wow, I was in a very happy place here, or Wow, I was in a really dark place there..and am very glad that all those things I wrote were for my eyes only, because of how much I have changed and moved on from certain things.. Maybe Axl also now realizes that it is probably not a good idea to let others see certain things when they are highly emotional for you at the time, and so is just waiting for when he can write and publish things in a more objective manner.. Plus he wouldn't want to damage this newfound fragile peace they have found. This all pure conjecture on my part though of course. :P

Totally love what you're saying here. Very reasonable conjecture.

I love to hear people thinking well of Axl or giving him the benefit of the doubt, largely because he is a human being albeit with a bad record in some areas - we all deserve a break and he has put up with a lot of abuse over the years. My take on him is that he has a lot of intelligence but finds it hard to express it sometimes or let it show due to issues from childhood.  

I hope you're right that he will eventually bring out his book.

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43 minutes ago, money honey said:

Totally love what you're saying here. Very reasonable conjecture.

I love to hear people thinking well of Axl or giving him the benefit of the doubt, largely because he is a human being albeit with a bad record in some areas - we all deserve a break and he has put up with a lot of abuse over the years. My take on him is that he has a lot of intelligence but finds it hard to express it sometimes or let it show due to issues from childhood.  

I hope you're right that he will eventually bring out his book.

I definitely think that there will eventually be a book. At one point in one of the 90s interviews there was talk of Del James working on, IIRC, a GnR book. I could imagine Del working with Axl on this.

A lot of celebs seem to put out their memoirs when they are much older  - it's like, they can tell their story because they are at a point where they are able to actually look back at it. Katherine Hepburn's memoirs spring to mind. Or sports figures who write about their competitive careers after they're done. I could picture Axl doing something when he's 85 and finally wants to tell the tale of his life so far.

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About the narcissist personality disorder thing, i just want to say depression or phobias are not symptoms, they're separated mental illnesses, NPD has an high rate of comorbity with other mental illness especially depression but, again, not a symptom, if you have depression it may not be the sign of another mental illness, NPD in this case, it may be "simply" depression and not every person with NPD suffers from depression too, because, again, separated mental illnesses that can be comorbid. I agree that you can't diagnose someone from your computer, especially cluster b disorders that are very difficult to diagnose even when you can interview the patient face to face.

 

About the sexist/homophobic/racism deal: i know a shit ton of people that don't consider themself that and when faced with gay people/people that are a minority/women are perfectly nice and supportive but still use derogative terms in everyday life because it's so widespread they don't even make the connection and when you call them out on it they go "but i don't mean it like that..."

it's the force of habit, especially for guys that lived in a time when it was even more widespread that now, i'm not excusing it but well, it doesn't surprise me, when you do it all your life and very few people bat an eye, except in a few occasion like OIAM, you don't see it as a thing to change urgently.

 

The book thing, i think one of the problems, other than not disturbing the peace, it's the organization? As in, Axl's prolix and in the good old rants day he could digress in a big way, when emotional he could rant about three wildly different topics in just one discourse, if he writes this way too it could be difficult to organizes his "diaries" in something easy to follow at first read, if i was Axl i would probably give up on the project especially if the emotions i put in it are long gone, it would exausting.

 

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3 hours ago, money honey said:

Sad thing to think about. I really hope for Axl's sake that it all gets some closure before that.

One thing I always have in my mind is what he said in the China Exchange interview when someone asked him if he planned to write a book like Duff and Slash. He said something like, "Yes I would like to, but there are too many legal complications" (I'm paraphrasing). I think it's a pity he won't go ahead (I mean, there were loads of legal implications for Slash and Duff's books but they wrote them anyway). I would love to hear what Axl has to say in his own book. Sure, it would probably be a bit mad and rambling and overlong but I think it would be good for him, ultimately, to get shit off his chest in the form of a book with his name (and only his name) on the cover. Possibly the legal reason isn't the only one, of course - I'm sure he knows himself that he would find the inevitable criticism of a book of his hard to take. 

Umm... I think the time for a book that includes a refutation of what was said about him by the other guys is gone. It should have come out when Duff and Slash published their own books.

Releasing it now is a shot in the foot... Unless it is written from a place of reflection, closure and he's willing to admit his mistakes. I'm not sure which is his current state of mind. He always came across to me as someone who is incapable of putting himself in the shoes of other people or seeing something from the perspective of someone else. Maybe he changed but if his book is going to be delusional like the things he said in the 90s, then he better not publish anything.

I don't know what the legal implications may be.... One of many problems I see is that if he's going to cover his life then he can't avoid talking about certain topics that could backfire really bad... And if he doesn't talk about them it will look like he deliberately wants to dodge them, which will lead to criticism as well. I think there are a couple issues in his life, dark zones where he cannot win. OIAM, the riots, domestic abuse, all those things he cannot find excuses anymore, not in the times we are living, so the only way to come out somewhat good from it would be to admit the mistakes, be humble about it and apologize to the offended ones. I don't know if he can or want to do that.

Again, the expectations for an Axl autobiography will be as high as it was for 'Chinese Democracy'. Every person who has a bit to do with his life or career will expect to be acknowledged. And it's also hard to criticize autobiographies because they can be nothing less than ultra subjective, for which there are big chances it will not fulfill the expectations of a lot of people.

Nonetheless, I would love to read it.... but every year that passes I feel it just won't happen. I really can't see it happening anytime soon but I hope I'm wrong.

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6 minutes ago, killuridols said:

One of many problems I see is that if he's going to cover his life then he can't avoid talking about certain topics that could backfire really bad... And if he doesn't talk about them it will look like he deliberately wants to dodge them, which will lead to criticism as well. I think there are a couple issues in his life, dark zones where he cannot win. OIAM, the riots, domestic abuse, all those things he cannot find excuses anymore, not in the times we are living, so the only way to come out somewhat good from it would be to admit the mistakes, be humble about it and apologize to the offended ones. I don't know if he can or want to do that.

This is very true too.. and I think perhaps one of the things he may have trouble with, at least in the past, is understanding that it is okay to sometimes be wrong. And okay to admit it. For people with control issues, this can be a hard thing to face, because they consider it a sign of weakness.. and unless you have had a strong parental guidance where you learn that it is part of life to make mistakes, that it doesn't make you a "bad" person, and to acknowledge and move on, or a strong circle of friends who you can learn these things from, then it is an even more difficult life lesson to learn. I hope he has somehow come to this place in life now.

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4 minutes ago, Whiskey Rose said:

This is very true too.. and I think perhaps one of the things he may have trouble with, at least in the past, is understanding that it is okay to sometimes be wrong. And okay to admit it. For people with control issues, this can be a hard thing to face, because they consider it a sign of weakness.. and unless you have had a strong parental guidance where you learn that it is part of life to make mistakes, that it doesn't make you a "bad" person, and to acknowledge and move on, or a strong circle of friends who you can learn these things from, then it is an even more difficult life lesson to learn. I hope he has somehow come to this place in life now.

Yes. I cannot help to think about how he would address his romantic relationships... If he doesn't it will look as fucking weird as when someone removed his marriage to Erin from his own Wikipedia page :facepalm:

If he does, it would open a whole can of worms and with this specific topic, admitting his wrong I feel it will not clean up his image either. People do not forget those kind of things and do not forgive so easily. That's why I say there are issues from his past where he cannot win anymore.

I agree that it is difficult for most people to admit they are wrong, been wrong or done wrong to someone. Not only a strong parental guidance can help you with that, a good therapy too but you also learn from your own mistakes as you grow up. You don't need your parents to be guiding you during your whole life.. It is great if they do and can do it! But sometimes I feel Axl is excused too much by his fans when they remark over and over that he has childhood traumas and well, poor guy, he's just like that.

Self-grow and self-evolution is something we can all practice from a lot of places. There's a point in life where you cannot keep blaming your parents for the way they raised you. It sucks to have bad parents, a lot of people have them, yet not everybody turns out an asshole or immature. You can change a lot of the bad in you if you are willing to become a better person. You can always refuse to make the same mistakes again and you can always stop, reflect and say "hey, this is something I don't want to do anymore, this hurt I don't want to feel anymore" and from that moment on you can start changing your life.

I do hope too Axl is finally in a better place in his heart and mind. Childhood trauma doesn't have to be haunting you forever. You can overcome even the worst of things if there is will to do it. 

 

 

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