GNR Women's Discussion - Part 2

[Scream of the Butterfly]

I believe she's most likely telling the truth but would love to be proven wrong.

Parts of the story have been confirmed by other people. At least the part that Axl ripped her clothes off and threw her out naked and that she was just 15 while Axl was 23. That alone is bad enough and makes her status as a victim valid IMO. Unfortunately, I don't find it hard to believe that the part about forcible rape is also true.

14 minutes ago, Minche said:

Idc what anyone says...Why is this posted here, in WOMEN's thread ? Why is it posted at all? We heard it all before, from Little Michelle herself. We discussed it already. What's the frikkin' point ? 

Where should it be posted if not the women's thread? We have discussed plenty of topics before. Doesn't mean they can't be discussed again. You are free not to participate.

[Padme]

1 hour ago, killuridols said:

Yeah. Though I meant in the sense of speaking and ventilating personal stuff about her boss.

She should not have said those things about her former employer. Sounds unprofessional and like a gossiper.

Keep in mind Axl makes people sign confidentiality agreements. If Axl dies tomorrow maybe that contract becomes irrelevant. I don't know. But just because Axl fires her I don't think she has the right to talk.

[killuridols]

3 hours ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

You don’t think any part of that story sounds at all suspicious? (and don’t mean the Axl being aggressive part) - I mean other things - you don’t think any of it sounds just a little bit like fantasy?

I hate to be that person - but I sure as hell do!

I'm fucking lost O_o

What happened?? Who are you talking about??

[MillionsOfSpiders]

5 minutes ago, killuridols said:

I'm fucking lost O_o

What happened?? Who are you talking about??

I was reacting to @GingerHair post in here about the Little Michelle story. I was talking about the doubts I have about some things she said. 

[killuridols]

4 minutes ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

I was reacting to @GingerHair post in here about the Little Michelle story. I was talking about the doubts I have about some things she said. 

Was it removed? I'm still lost and I can't find her post in the previous pages 

[MillionsOfSpiders]

3 minutes ago, killuridols said:

Was it removed? I'm still lost and I can't find her post in the previous pages 

She deleted it herself, I think. I’m sure she will re-write the detail I was referring to when she comes back - I sent her a pm explaining I didn’t mean to put her off posting   

[killuridols]

1 hour ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

She deleted it herself, I think. I’m sure she will re-write the detail I was referring to when she comes back - I sent her a pm explaining I didn’t mean to put her off posting   

Ok.

After reading the other responses and comments here, I guess I figured out she was talking about the "interview" some guy did with Michelle and was posted on Twitter (or YouTube), I think....

I've not listened to it yet.... Not in the mood to listen to GN'R dramas ATM.... also because I already know the "story" and it seems it has not changed that much since the last time, did it?

4 hours ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

I know some people in this thread will think I’m “sick” and anti feminist but I can’t really accept the whole miscarriage story and when I doubt something as serious as that it makes me doubt everything. 

I am one of the rabid feminists here but I do not think you are sick for having this opinion. You've exposed it in a respectful manner and that's the difference between you and someone "sick".

Michelle's story is not all 100% clear to me either.... even though I do find "sick" that she was hanging out with grown up men at 15, having sexual relationships with them. All adults in charge of her and the ones messing up with her were responsible for how she ended involved in the "incident" with Axl (and allegedly Slash as well).

That part I totally believe it to be true, because in my books, minors can't give consent to sexual relationships. And if they do, they are wrong. It is the adult person responsability to guide them and say no to their requests.

The pregnancy and miscarriage are the parts of the story that sound untrue to me..... Especially because some stuff she described sound out of character to me (I mean Axl). Like, I don't think Axl was the nice "boyfriend" who wanted a baby with a random 15 year-old girl, or that they were very close and saw each other every day....

 

[GingerHair]

7 hours ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

She deleted it herself, I think. I’m sure she will re-write the detail I was referring to when she comes back - I sent her a pm explaining I didn’t mean to put her off posting   

Oh, stop!  You were just informing me of things I completely overlooked. I appreciated it.

One of reasons I like this thread is because the large majority of people are respectful, even when disagreeing, and can build arguments. 

I deleted the post because, if it was already largely discussed before, it didn't serve my purpose when posting it. I will catch-up on discussion already done. And also I am not comfortable with the fact people might be watching their back because Little Michelle might be sneaking in here. There is less fun to that.  

5 hours ago, killuridols said:

Ok.

After reading the other responses and comments here, I guess I figured out she was talking about the "interview" some guy did with Michelle and was posted on Twitter (or YouTube), I think....

Yes, it was the first 35 min of a phone interview with Little Michelle. 

If you don't want drama, you do well in skipping it. It's fuck'g drama beginning to end. . I enjoy drama though. 

 

I always give the benefit of the doubt to the victim when there in a case of sexual assault, rape, domestic violence. There is no glamour in being on this position. Your personal life will be scrutinised, people will judge your behaviour, clothes, friends, habits, social media accounts, etc, etc, etc. But only by being 15 y.o., be living a street life and then being thrown out naked in the middle of the night in front of a lot of people... she has my full solidarity. 

I'm much less convinced about the reactions to the pregnancy and whole miscarriage episode but, I won't extend myself before looking what was already discussed in the previous thread.

By my counting, that is the 3rd woman who claim to have naturally miscarried a baby by Axl. 

[Scream of the Butterfly]

9 hours ago, killuridols said:

The pregnancy and miscarriage are the parts of the story that sound untrue to me..... Especially because some stuff she described sound out of character to me (I mean Axl). Like, I don't think Axl was the nice "boyfriend" who wanted a baby with a random 15 year-old girl, or that they were very close and saw each other every day....

It didn't make sense for Axl to want a child with Erin, either, considering how dysfunctional that relationship was and that he had only recently said in an interview that he didn't want children at the moment. Yet he apparently had a very strong reaction to that miscarriage as well.

There are a lot men who don't realistically want children and have no realistic understanding of what being a parent involves. That doesn't stop them from going crazy when a woman miscarries or, god forbid, has an abortion. Axl was a young man with religious background and most likely very much against a woman's right to choose. If he as much as suspected that Michelle had "killed his baby", it wouldn't surprise me if he responded with violence totally regardless of whether he had initially wanted the baby or not.

If other parts of Little Michelle's story are true, I don't understand why she would make up the part about the pregnancy and miscarriage. If she has a legit story to tell about a crime that was committed and is hoping for acknowledgement from members of the band, why would she ruin it with some bs story about a pregnancy that never happened?

[Padme]

1 hour ago, Scream of the Butterfly said:

It didn't make sense for Axl to want a child with Erin, either, considering how dysfunctional that relationship was and that he had only recently said in an interview that he didn't want children at the moment. Yet he apparently had a very strong reaction to that miscarriage as well.

There are a lot men who don't realistically want children and have no realistic understanding of what being a parent involves. That doesn't stop them from going crazy when a woman miscarries or, god forbid, has an abortion. Axl was a young man with religious background and most likely very much against a woman's right to choose. If he as much as suspected that Michelle had "killed his baby", it wouldn't surprise me if he responded with violence totally regardless of whether he had initially wanted the baby or not.

If other parts of Little Michelle's story are true, I don't understand why she would make up the part about the pregnancy and miscarriage. If she has a legit story to tell about a crime that was committed and is hoping for acknowledgement from members of the band, why would she ruin it with some bs story about a pregnancy that never happened?

A few things here. According to Erin's interview in People Magazine she wanted to be pregnant. She thought a baby would help Axl to change. It wasn't something they planned.

Axl was into religion when was a kid. But as teen and young adult he hated religion. I don't know how he feels about abortion. But religion in not a issue that matters to him

About this girl alledged rape. According to Slash book, he says he talked to her but nothing more. He did say however that Axl had sex with her. And only Axl standed on trial but I don't know what happened. For sure Axl didn't spend 10 years in jail. Was it rape? She was underage. So the mere fact she was underage makes it rape despite a possible concent from her part. Was she pregnant with Axl's child? Impossible to know since there is no blood test or DNA test and no baby as far as I know.

[Lio]

4 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

Slash said Axl fucked an underage girl and that girl was 'Little Michelle'?

There are no names, but he talked about the rape case. She says it was her.

[Angelica]

2 hours ago, Scream of the Butterfly said:

It didn't make sense for Axl to want a child with Erin, either, considering how dysfunctional that relationship was and that he had only recently said in an interview that he didn't want children at the moment. Yet he apparently had a very strong reaction to that miscarriage as well.

Whether it made sense or not, they both wanted children together. Axl did an interview that year and mentioned the names they’d picked out. 

I agree that Axl had a profoundly limited understanding of family/parenting , though he obviously wanted it (see his obsession with Dylan). 

[MillionsOfSpiders]

13 hours ago, killuridols said:

I've not listened to it yet.... Not in the mood to listen to GN'R dramas ATM.... also because I already know the "story" and it seems it has not changed that much since the last time, did it?

 

Some of the details are a little different now - like here she said when Axl came back from Indiana she went to talk to him about the baby which Slash had already told him about because he said “you’re pregnant” and she said “I was” which seemed to be a trigger. 

Now she says she went to confront him because he had fucked one of her friends and then he brought up the baby which Slash had told him about and he knew about the miscarriage too - he still screamed about her killing his baby etc. 

That’s quite a difference in my opinion. 

Maybe not to others though? 

Edited September 14, 2019 by MillionsOfSpiders

[Padme]

22 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

Okay so just to be clear any apparent facts were already publicly known and she's suddenly claimed on the internet it's her aka latched onto them - with zero evidence. She's said if you question her/don't believe her then you must be a bad person and oh yeah she's writing/selling a book. She doesn't even have a single photo of herself with anyone from GNR because she supposedly destroyed any sliver of proof she ever even knew them let alone was like their family.

What a crock of shit. Not saying more on this because it's fucking mindnumbing.

If there weren't liars then the notion of "Believe all women. Believe every victim." wouldn't be an obvious impossibility in the real world; and real victims wouldn't inevitably go unheard. This is why I don't care that some will find me blunt as I cut to the chase and say what most are too polite to put plainly.

There wasn't ZERO evidence. Axl went to trial. Slash talked about this incident in his book. In the begining this girl acussed him too. I don't remember all the details. But Slash says Axl and this girl had sex. And she happens to be underage at the time. Did Axl know she was underage? I don't know. And maybe Axl didn't know that either at the time.

I didn't hear this woman recent comments about this event in the past. So I don't know what she claims now. But the incident with this girl happened because Slash talked about in his book.

[Lio]

36 minutes ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

Some of the details are a little different now - like here she said when Axl came back from Indiana she went to talk to him about the baby which Slash had already told him about because he said “you’re pregnant” and she said “I was” which seemed to be a trigger. 

Now she says she went to confront him because he had fucked one of her friends and then he brought up the baby which Slash had told him about and he knew about the miscarriage too - he still screamed about her killing his baby etc. 

That’s quite a difference in my opinion. 

Maybe not to others though? 

Lol, that's probably because I think Blackstar found out Axl supposedly going to Indiana didn't fit the timeline at all.

[Blackstar]

I generally want to take into account all the available versions and sources, and also look at each case separately, before I pass judgement on anything (unlike, for example, some MJ fans who refused to watch the documentary).

So, even though I'd read her side of the story on her social media and here on the forum, I listened to the audio interview too (the parts that have been uploaded so far). I've noticed that there has been a "progression" in her story, with parts of it being altered each time and new things being added. This is the case with the audio interview too and the story is also "enhanced" with more sensational details. The description of the miscarriage scene sounded like something beyond the realm of possibility. It sounded fictional. Even if the rest of her account could be considered plausible in theory - although it's not backed by any evidence for the most part and is contradicted by other accounts - this part just couldn't be. There are other things that don't add up, but this is just too much.

I also don't find her stated motive for opening up about it now very convincing.

Moreover, there is an obvious political agenda behind some of the "support" she gets, including her "interviewer".

All this has made me very skeptical (to put it mildly).

I believe the part of the story that is known from other sources for years (that she was thrown out naked). This is bad in itself, but it's still not forcible rape and it's an old story that we all knew. 

I can feel sympathy for the part I believe as true, but on the other hand I can't condone making up stuff to make someone look worse than they were or for whatever other reasons.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Blackstar

[Padme]

15 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

I listened to the audio interview

When this interview took place? Who was the reporter? Did she explain why all of a sudden she decided to add "new information" about an old event?

How come she didn't bring this information during the trial back in the 80s? The important thing is the transcript of the whole trial. It is my understanding those kind of documents are avalible to the public, at least in the U.S.

[MillionsOfSpiders]

I don’t know why her and that guy are releasing an hour long interview in four separate parts days apart from each other. 

Weird way of doing things. 

GNR Central is posting them @Padme

[Padme]

3 minutes ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

I don’t know why her and that guy are releasing an hour long interview in four separate parts days apart from each other. 

Weird way of doing things. 

GNR Central is posting them @Padme

Then let me know if she does an interview with Rolling Stone magazine or Eddie Trunk. I don't care about things coming from GNR Central. Unless people like Vicky Hamilton or Marc Canter are the ones addressing this issue.

[Scream of the Butterfly]

1 hour ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

Now she says she went to confront him because he had fucked one of her friends and then he brought up the baby which Slash had told him about and he knew about the miscarriage too - he still screamed about her killing his baby etc. 

Where did she say that he (Axl?) already knew about the miscarriage? I listened to the audio interview and that's not what she said.

[Blackstar]

49 minutes ago, Padme said:

When this interview took place? Who was the reporter? Did she explain why all of a sudden she decided to add "new information" about an old event?

How come she didn't bring this information during the trial back in the 80s? The important thing is the transcript of the whole trial. It is my understanding those kind of documents are avalible to the public, at least in the U.S.

The interview is recent. The "interviewer" is just some guy on twitter, who identifies himself as a "former GnR fan" and an avid Trump supporter.

But she's been on about it (on social media and then in a thread here) for quite some time. She has said that she decided to talk about it because of what has been written in books about the events - however most of the books she refers to were released years ago. She says what she's seeking for is "healing" but hasn't made it clear what she wants the band to do, although she's been posting on their social media - especially Duff's who then went to block her - and didn't answer when she was asked about it on here. She has also mentioned, just en passant, that she was raped two other times by other guys (irrelevant to GnR), one of which when she was 12, but the only case she still seems to be seeking "healing" for is Axl's.

In regards to the documents from that period, it's not clear if there was an actual trial, even though Slash says "court" in his book. "Court" could just mean only a hearing by a judge just for the charges to be dropped, which is more likely. Also in old interviews Slash mentioned that both of them went just to the police and not to court. So if it was just that and the police report, I don't know if it could be available for the public. She claims that she refused to testify and that's why the charges were dropped. One of the things that are problematic in her story is that she says that Slash wasn't there at all, although Slash himself has said he was, and other people have said (Izzy, Marc Canter) that Slash was accused as well.

 

Edited September 14, 2019 by Blackstar

[MillionsOfSpiders]

5 minutes ago, Scream of the Butterfly said:

Where did she say that he (Axl?) already knew about the miscarriage? I listened to the audio interview and that's not what she said.

Maybe I misheard that part then, still this version is different to the other - and why would Slash have told Axl about the baby but not that she had miscarried it? Seeing as she lost it about an hour after he noticed she was getting a bit fatter at The Troubadour so she told him - and then he sat singing Don’t Cry to her at the bar after it happened - you’d think he would tell Axl that part too. 

[Blackstar]

8 minutes ago, Scream of the Butterfly said:

Where did she say that he (Axl?) already knew about the miscarriage? I listened to the audio interview and that's not what she said.

By her description of the miscarriage at the Troubadour, she made it sound that Slash knew about that too - unless Slash was smart enough to notice that she was pregnant, but he wouldn't notice she was bleeding when they were singing "Don't Cry" to her in support. So if Slash had told Axl about the pregnancy, he would have told him about that, too. 

[Scream of the Butterfly]

3 hours ago, Padme said:

Axl was into religion when was a kid. But as teen and young adult he hated religion. I don't know how he feels about abortion. But religion in not a issue that matters to him

I'm aware that he rejected his parents' religion but that doesn't mean his cultural and religious background didn't continue to influence him.

 

2 hours ago, Padme said:

But Slash says Axl and this girl had sex. And she happens to be underage at the time. Did Axl know she was underage? I don't know. And maybe Axl didn't know that either at the time.

Didn't Axl himself also refer to this girl as an ex-girlfriend? I doubt he would have done so if the relationship didn't involve sex.

According to Raz Cue they all knew she was 15.

 

[killuridols]

Holy shit 

Ok, I had to go an listen to that in order to understand what we are all talking about here. So I will respond to @Scream of the Butterfly and @MillionsOfSpiders now.

1) Axl's reaction to Erin's pregnancy and miscarriage are confusing to me, in the way they've been told by the press of the time. According to People's magazine, Axl's reaction to Erin's pregnancy was bad, as in, he wasn't happy to find out she was pregnant. Then she miscarriages and he destroys the house 

In September 1990, Everly learned that she was pregnant. “This was all I wanted,” she says. “I thought it could have been a cure for Axl.” If so, it didn’t take: Everly says that Rose’s elation quickly soured and that he threw her out of the condo and threatened to take the baby. When she miscarried in her third month, Everly had to sell her Jeep to cover medical costs. As Everly recuperated, Rose trashed the house in the Hollywood Hills they had been preparing to move into, causing $100,000 in damages.

But when he spoke to MTV about this, he didn't sound like a psycho and said they were going to try "this baby thing" one more time. 

LM story of pregnancy and subsequent miscarriage sounds too similar to Erin's, especially Axl's reactions, where he goes in matter of minutes from apparently being happy to know that she was pregnant, to accusing her of having "killed my baby", to crying on his knees because she didn't tell him the truth and holding each other in grieve for the lost baby, to suddenly leaving her there and start fucking some random girl in the parking lot and when LM finds out he goes back in, takes her clothes off and rapes her....... All that in a matter of what?.... 20 minutes as much?

Axl is a lunatic but this is too much. And if it really did happen then I don't understand how come this didn't turn into a huge scandal. They weren't so powerful at the time, I don't know, something rings off to me and it's not exactly the rape part, to be honest.

2) At the risk of turning into an armchair psychologist, I must say that the whole thing about Axl wanting a family so much sounds more like a projection of others than his own desire. I don't have a vivid recollection of him saying these things but it's always other people who tell those stories..... Because if we guide ourselves by facts, Axl did everything in his hands to SABOTAGE this alleged dream of his.

Not only all of "his" babies died, but he trashed every serious relationship he had with women. So there he is now, at almost 60 years old, wifeless and children less. At this point, I am safe to think this is a personal choice rather than destiny.

That's why it's hard for me to think of Axl as a guy who TRULY wanted a traditional family and that's why it's hard for me to believe Little Michelle story of Axl being kind, nice, willing to have a kid at 23 and sobbing over the loss of said baby.

4 hours ago, Scream of the Butterfly said:

If other parts of Little Michelle's story are true, I don't understand why she would make up the part about the pregnancy and miscarriage. If she has a legit story to tell about a crime that was committed and is hoping for acknowledgement from members of the band, why would she ruin it with some bs story about a pregnancy that never happened?

My opinion or theory about that is that LM is affected by the way she was portrayed in those news articles and books, as some random party girl who had occasional sex with Axl, and was thrown out of the place because she was a troublemaker.

Slash doesn't acknowledge her as someone who was close to the band. Not even Axl has ever mentioned her as a former girlfriend or lover.

In her version, she's all the contrary to how these people have presented her: she says she was friends with Slash and Steven previous to meeting Axl, that they were protective of her, that she knew everybody from the band and that she had an intense relationship with Axl, in spite of him being with other women.

In a nutshell, a story of pregnancy and miscarriage helps the audience feel more compassion about the rape story than the plain sequence where she is just having consented sex with adult men. (because people in general feel more compassion for a rape story where sex is forced, as opposed to a story where a teenager has sex with adult men because she wants to. Patriarchal men and women see this as the case of a "slut" who deserves to be mistreated for not respecting herself).

2 hours ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

Now she says she went to confront him because he had fucked one of her friends and then he brought up the baby which Slash had told him about and he knew about the miscarriage too - he still screamed about her killing his baby etc. 

That’s quite a difference in my opinion. 

To me, the weirdest part is the miscarriage at the Troubadour. 

She says she was over 3 months pregnant and she had the miscarriage at the bathroom. Then she got out and sat down at a table while the band played Don'T Cry for her? 

I am thinking how terrible it must be to miscarriage such a huge baby and not have consequences from that or how she didn't need to go to E.R. immediately after that??? No one called an ambulance?? How did she handle this whole thing and still managed to remain at the bar to listen to the band play?? That's fucked up to me. I just can't get around that.

Also, when Slash allegedly told Axl about her being pregnant, he didn't tell Axl that she had a miscarriage-not-an-abortion??!! Why would Axl think she killed the baby or why would Slash tell just HALF of the story, as if a miscarriage wouldn't be as traumatic and serious just like an abortion??