GNR Women's Discussion - Part 2

[Padme]

1 minute ago, Scream of the Butterfly said:

I'm aware that he rejected his parents' religion but that doesn't mean his cultural and religious background didn't continue to influence him.

 

Didn't Axl himself also refer to this girl as an ex-girlfriend? I doubt he would have done so if the relationship didn't involve sex.

According to Raz Cue they all knew she was 15.

 

I never read any comment coming from Axl about that girl being his girlfriend. As far as I know only Slash mentioned her in his book. It seems it was just one night stand.

Still this interview is bullshit. She was accusing Axl of rape. On top of that she was talking about pregnancy. Before printing the interview the so called reporter should talk to other sources who can back up all the claims this woman is making.

[Blackstar]

This quote is from an interview in June 1986 (L.A Weekly), so close to those events:

Axl: People would show up at all hours, and we’d talk everybody into climbing into the loft, and someone would hit the light and go, “Alright! Everybody in the loft! Let’s get naked or leave!” This one girl fucked almost the whole band, friends of the band, the band next door and two days later she goes, “Axl, I’m having your child.”

What I get from this is 1) that there must have been some of the women/girls they slept with that got pregnant (which would be expected considering their lifestyle and that they likely didn't take any precautions) and didn't keep the babies as neither party would want to 2) that Axl's reaction if someone told him she was pregnant would probably be that the baby wasn't his and 3) that the last thing he would want then would be a baby. 

Edited September 14, 2019 by Blackstar

[Padme]

4 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

This quote is from an interview in June 1986 (L.A Weekly), so close to those events:

Axl: People would show up at all hours, and we’d talk everybody into climbing into the loft, and someone would hit the light and go, “Alright! Everybody in the loft! Let’s get naked or leave!” This one girl fucked almost the whole band, friends of the band, the band next door and two days later she goes, “Axl, I’m having your child.”

What I get from this is 1) that there must have been of women/girls they slept with getting pregnant (which would be expected considering their lifestyle and that they likely didn't get any precautions) and not keeping the babies as neither party would want to 2) that Axl's reaction if someone told him she was pregnant would be that the baby wasn't his and 3) that the last thing he would want then would be a baby. 

I only know about one woman who said she was dating Axl during some GN'R tour. According to her, there was some kind of relationship going on. Later they broke up. Or she just left. She found out she was pregnant and she had an abortion. But she never told Axl anything. I don't remember more details. I read it somewhere long ago (not main streem media) But she wasn't any 15 year old. She was just very much a groupie at the time. And when she told this story. She was living a different and normal life

[Blackstar]

10 minutes ago, Padme said:

I only know about one woman who said she was dating Axl during some GN'R tour. According to her, there was some kind of relationship going on. Later they broke up. Or she just left. She found out she was pregnant and she had an abortion. But she never told Axl anything. I don't remember more details. I read it somewhere long ago (not main streem media) But she wasn't any 15 year old. She was just very much a groupie at the time. And when she told this story. She was living a different and normal life

Yeah, that was a different story, Julianna Sedbrook who had participated in the WTTJ video:

https://sweet-rose-of-mine.tumblr.com/post/170077575000/interview-with-julianna-sedbrook-the-groupie-who

[Blackstar]

For anyone who is interested and hasn't read it, we have done a recap of that story here and have included everything that has been said about it by band members and people close to the band:

http://www.a-4-d.com/t4046p30-the-history-in-their-own-words#15565

[killuridols]

1 hour ago, Blackstar said:

This quote is from an interview in June 1986 (L.A Weekly), so close to those events:

Axl: People would show up at all hours, and we’d talk everybody into climbing into the loft, and someone would hit the light and go, “Alright! Everybody in the loft! Let’s get naked or leave!” This one girl fucked almost the whole band, friends of the band, the band next door and two days later she goes, “Axl, I’m having your child.”

What I get from this is 1) that there must have been some of the women/girls they slept with that got pregnant (which would be expected considering their lifestyle and that they likely didn't take any precautions) and didn't keep the babies as neither party would want to 2) that Axl's reaction if someone told him she was pregnant would probably be that the baby wasn't his and 3) that the last thing he would want then would be a baby. 

That quote is interesting. I have never read that before. I also agree with your reasoning.

Axl never strike me as a guy who REALLY wanted children, not even with Erin and his obsession with Dylan was just bollocks to hurt the mother.

 

[Lio]

11 minutes ago, killuridols said:

That quote is interesting. I have never read that before. I also agree with your reasoning.

Axl never strike me as a guy who REALLY wanted children, not even with Erin and his obsession with Dylan was just bollocks to hurt the mother.

 

I don't believe the bolded part. By all accounts, Axl is someone who really loves children. So I can imagine he was genuinely attached to Dylan too and counted on having him around. Didn't he have a room for him in his house too? I'm not saying he had any right to Dylan, but I do believe his feelings were genuine and losing him (in his eyes) had a huge impact on Axl.

[killuridols]

1 minute ago, Lio said:

I don't believe the bolded part. By all accounts, Axl is someone who really loves children. So I can imagine he was genuinely attached to Dylan too and counted on having him around. Didn't he have a room for him in his house too? I'm not saying he had any right to Dylan, but I do believe his feelings were genuine and losing him (in his eyes) had a huge impact on Axl.

I believe it because, to me, actions speak louder than mere words.

Let's quote what Axl has said about Dylan in the press:
"I’m around a three-year-old baby now and then, and sometimes after a few days it’s just too overwhelming for me. My head is spinning because of the changes it’s putting me through."
"[...] We want to maintain our friendship and be really protective of how our relationship affects Dylan. Dylan gets priority over us, because he could be greatly damaged, and I don’t want that to happen."

Beautiful words, right? But then he goes beating up the hell out of the mother and talking shit about her, and he expects those things will not affect Dylan?

If he had loved Dylan as much as his tongue spoke, then he wouldn't have exposed the kid in his videos and interviews and wouldn't have hurt his mother like he did. Because the most precious thing a kid has when they are 1-2-3 years old is their mother.

In my opinion, he saw in Dylan a reflection of himself when he was a child and he was loving the Axl he saw in Dylan, not the different being that Dylan really was >>
"[...] My growth was stopped at two years old. And when they talk about Axl Rose being a screaming two-year-old, they’re right. There’s a screaming two-year-old who’s real pissed off and hides and won’t show himself that often, even to me. Because I couldn’t protect him. And the world didn’t protect him. And women didn’t protect him and basically thought he should be put out of existence."

[Scream of the Butterfly]

I think this is the quote I had in mind earlier:

Axl: "I mentioned to one person about some trumped-up rape charges that we had, and that started appearing everywhere. It really wasn't that big a deal - just some old girlfriend trying to get back at us. People seem to want to believe we're really bad guys. Yeah, we've had some run-in's with the cops and we've done some strange things in our lives, but I think people are just making too much out of 'em" [Hit Parader, March 1989].

[Ratam]

5 hours ago, Blackstar said:

I generally want to take into account all the available versions and sources, and also look at each case separately, before I pass judgement on anything (unlike, for example, some MJ fans who refused to watch the documentary).

So, even though I'd read her side of the story on her social media and here on the forum, I listened to the audio interview too (the parts that have been uploaded so far). I've noticed that there has been a "progression" in her story, with parts of it being altered each time and new things being added. This is the case with the audio interview too and the story is also "enhanced" with more sensational details. The description of the miscarriage scene sounded like something beyond the realm of possibility. It sounded fictional. Even if the rest of her account could be considered plausible in theory - although it's not backed by any evidence for the most part and is contradicted by other accounts - this part just couldn't be. There are other things that don't add up, but this is just too much.

I also don't find her stated motive for opening up about it now very convincing.

Moreover, there is an obvious political agenda behind some of the "support" she gets, including her "interviewer".

All this has made me very skeptical (to put it mildly).

I believe the part of the story that is known from other sources for years (that she was thrown out naked). This is bad in itself, but it's still not forcible rape and it's an old story that we all knew. 

I can feel sympathy for the part I believe as true, but on the other hand I can't condone making up stuff to make someone look worse than they were or for whatever other reasons.

I see few times in GNR FB posts Hasthags about LittleMichellematter , i sure that this posts was of LittleMichelle husband. I think his name is Seth ❓

[Blackstar]

7 minutes ago, Ratam said:

I see few times in GNR FB posts Hasthags about LittleMichellematter , i sure that this posts was of LittleMichelle husband. I think his name is Seth ❓

Yes, I think so.

[Ratam]

6 minutes ago, Ratam said:

I see few times in GNR FB posts Hasthags about LittleMichellematter , i sure that this posts was of LittleMichelle husband. I think his name is Seth ❓

Sorry, maybe i is wrong and the hasthag is LittleMichellelifematter.

[killuridols]

25 minutes ago, Scream of the Butterfly said:

I think this is the quote I had in mind earlier:

Axl: "I mentioned to one person about some trumped-up rape charges that we had, and that started appearing everywhere. It really wasn't that big a deal - just some old girlfriend trying to get back at us. People seem to want to believe we're really bad guys. Yeah, we've had some run-in's with the cops and we've done some strange things in our lives, but I think people are just making too much out of 'em" [Hit Parader, March 1989].

The problem is that Axl and the other guys have referred to this girl in many different ways, throughout the years.... sometimes it sounds like there were more than one girl accussing them of rape, because of the way the band members describe them

I guess it will be really hard for us to figure out what really happened, but a few things are clear to me:

1) They had sex with underaged girls.
2) Violence, drugs and alcohol were a constant in those sexual relationships.
3) Pregnancies and abortions were not uncommon to the whole bunch.
4) Sitting calmly at the table in some club, after having a miscarriage in the bathroom, is bullshit.

[janrichmond]

10 minutes ago, killuridols said:

4) Sitting calmly at the table in some club, after having a miscarriage in the bathroom, is bullshit.

To me this is the biggest red flag in this whole story. Anyone who has suffered a miscarriage or know someone who has, will know how ludicrous this is. We're not talking just having a heavy period. It's painful and there's blood, lots of blood. 

I'm guessing this 'little Michelle' has never had kids? 

[Ratam]

4 minutes ago, janrichmond said:

To me this is the biggest red flag in this whole story. Anyone who has suffered a miscarriage or know someone who has, will know how ludicrous this is. We're not talking just having a heavy period. It's painful and there's blood, lots of blood. 

I'm guessing this 'little Michelle' has never had kids? 

She has kids.

[MillionsOfSpiders]

5 hours ago, killuridols said:

To me, the weirdest part is the miscarriage at the Troubadour.  

That’s the strangest part to me as well. She gives details like how many stalls are in the bathroom and going to sit at the table with Duff, Slash and Steven singing to her like they’re most important factors of the event. Then what? Nothing? No medical care was needed, nobody noticed this happening in what must have been a busy club and what happened to the baby’s body? There must have been one since she said it happened at almost 17 weeks. 

All this just an hour after Slash noticed she was pregnant so she told him. 

Very very odd way of telling that story. Which is a bit of a red flag to me.

Also, I completely agree with the whole Axl being a nice and attentive boyfriend as being very odd - look at all of his other known girlfriends/affairs

Gina Siler - very turbulent, they argued a lot, she says it was like having a nuclear warhead in the room that they were both tapping on constantly. Violent.

Michelle Young - he wasn’t violent but she said the relationship was always turbulent and she witnessed lots of tantrums. 

Erin - violent, turbulent, awful.

Julianna Sedbrook - she only really got three decent days with him until he went into a depressive mood and locked himself away. 

Stephanie - turbulent, violence. 

All of the above relationships were on and off like a light switch

Yet he was kind, attentive, spiritual and never even raised his voice in this relationship? 

[Scream of the Butterfly]

Women have given birth to full term babies alone in the bathroom without any help and without telling anybody about it. I don't find it particularly difficult to believe that the miscarriage may have happened exactly as she described it.

The relationship with Little Michelle didn't last for very long. I think Axl has typically been a good guy in the early stages of his relationships. Stephanie said that they never fought or had any disagreements (which of course later on was no longer true).

 

[janrichmond]

29 minutes ago, Scream of the Butterfly said:

Women have given birth to full term babies alone in the bathroom without any help and without telling anybody about it. I don't find it particularly difficult to believe that the miscarriage may have happened exactly as she described it.

 

 

Do you honestly believe she just miscarries at 17 weeks and then carries on drinking at the bar? 

[Scream of the Butterfly]

28 minutes ago, janrichmond said:

Do you honestly believe she just miscarries at 17 weeks and then carries on drinking at the bar? 

Did she say she carried on drinking? She sat there bleeding while her friends were cleaning the scene of the miscarriage and the band was playing Don't Cry. She was describing how surreal it was.

[janrichmond]

1 minute ago, Scream of the Butterfly said:

Did she say she carried on drinking? She sat there bleeding while her friends were cleaning the scene of the miscarriage and the band was playing Don't Cry. She was describing how surreal it was.

I don't believe her. Her story changes and when she was here she wouldn't/couldn't answer reasonable questions. If you believe her that's fine. I don't.

[Angelica]

4 hours ago, killuridols said:

I believe it because, to me, actions speak louder than mere words.

Let's quote what Axl has said about Dylan in the press:
"I’m around a three-year-old baby now and then, and sometimes after a few days it’s just too overwhelming for me. My head is spinning because of the changes it’s putting me through."
"[...] We want to maintain our friendship and be really protective of how our relationship affects Dylan. Dylan gets priority over us, because he could be greatly damaged, and I don’t want that to happen."

Beautiful words, right? But then he goes beating up the hell out of the mother and talking shit about her, and he expects those things will not affect Dylan?

If he had loved Dylan as much as his tongue spoke, then he wouldn't have exposed the kid in his videos and interviews and wouldn't have hurt his mother like he did. Because the most precious thing a kid has when they are 1-2-3 years old is their mother.

In my opinion, he saw in Dylan a reflection of himself when he was a child and he was loving the Axl he saw in Dylan, not the different being that Dylan really was >>
"[...] My growth was stopped at two years old. And when they talk about Axl Rose being a screaming two-year-old, they’re right. There’s a screaming two-year-old who’s real pissed off and hides and won’t show himself that often, even to me. Because I couldn’t protect him. And the world didn’t protect him. And women didn’t protect him and basically thought he should be put out of existence."

 

I mostly agree with this. It’s always baffled me just how attached Axl got. He and Steph had a long distance relationship - for the entire time they were together he was on the UYI tour and she was one of the most in demand models on the planet. How much time could he really have spent with Dylan?

Obviously he intended for them to be a family but it seems more based on his romantic fantasies than anything else. Like if she hadn’t left, I’m not sure a baby 24/7 in the same house whose needs came before his would’ve worked for him long term 🤣 

[killuridols]

3 hours ago, janrichmond said:

I'm guessing this 'little Michelle' has never had kids? 

I think she has two but I could be wrong. 

The funny thing is that all women who Axl allegedly "got pregnant" do not have an Axl child. But they all do have their own bunch of children, while Axl has none. I become suspicious of that. 

2 hours ago, Scream of the Butterfly said:

Women have given birth to full term babies alone in the bathroom without any help and without telling anybody about it. I don't find it particularly difficult to believe that the miscarriage may have happened exactly as she described it.

The relationship with Little Michelle didn't last for very long. I think Axl has typically been a good guy in the early stages of his relationships. Stephanie said that they never fought or had any disagreements (which of course later on was no longer true).

LM says she was with two friends when the miscarriage happened and they helped her with all that. She even said Steven Adler helped her too, so hopefully Steven would remember if he was asked about it?

I'm not saying it's not possible that a woman could have a miscarriage in the bathroom of the bar, but she was over 3 months pregnant... can you imagine that mess? That's a big thing to come out of your body and she didn't freak out? She was 15 years old, any girl would have freaked out or pass out ... unless this wasn't the first time she was in a similar situation.... Still, it's all too violent to even be real and when she's telling the story about the band playing Dont Cry, her voice becomes soft and sweet, she even says that the whole moment was like out of a movie ... how can she have fond memories of such a terrible moment? I can't get around that.

Axl may have been nice and good to her while she was accessible and available to have sex with him, but I dont believe in Axl being a "nice boyfriend", a caring guy who wanted to see her every day or being happy about her pregnancy and then snapping like she described. Probably that's the way she projected him to be but from his account of the story, she was just a crazy chick who was obsessed with him and while he did have sex with her, that's all he wanted with her and probably the pregnancy or something else made him snap and turn violent to her, which is the only part of the story that I believe.

[Scream of the Butterfly]

On 9/15/2019 at 2:59 AM, killuridols said:

LM says she was with two friends when the miscarriage happened and they helped her with all that. She even said Steven Adler helped her too, so hopefully Steven would remember if he was asked about it?

To be clear, she didn't say Steven or anybody from the band helped her with the miscarriage. She encountered Steven when she left the bathroom after the fact. Whether or not Steven noticed that something was off with her, he probably didn't realize it was because she had just miscarried, especially if he didn't even know she was pregnant.

She did say she was still "bleeding all over the place" when she was sitting at the table, but most likely it wasn't like a spray fountain. If she was wearing dark clothing, it's well possible nobody noticed a thing.

With that said, I think it would be interesting if somebody asked Steven about the whole incident (not just the miscarriage).

On 9/15/2019 at 2:59 AM, killuridols said:

I'm not saying it's not possible that a woman could have a miscarriage in the bathroom of the bar, but she was over 3 months pregnant... can you imagine that mess? That's a big thing to come out of your body and she didn't freak out? She was 15 years old, any girl would have freaked out or pass out ... unless this wasn't the first time she was in a similar situation.... Still, it's all too violent to even be real and when she's telling the story about the band playing Dont Cry, her voice becomes soft and sweet, she even says that the whole moment was like out of a movie ... how can she have fond memories of such a terrible moment? I can't get around that.

If girls can pull it off and give birth full term without any help and without anybody noticing, it's no surprise that somebody could do the same with a miscarriage and with the help of two friends. There have been cases where nobody knew a girl had given birth until a baby was found in a toilet bowl.

Don't Cry was her favorite song. I suppose there may have been some comfort or beauty in hearing that song in her moment of agony, but I don't think she's telling it as a fond memory. Not all movies are good movies.

I can't be 100% that everything happened as she said it happened, but there's nothing there that would make me go "there's no way this could have happened".

[Lio]

1 hour ago, Scream of the Butterfly said:

She did say she was still "bleeding all over the place" when she was sitting at the table, but most likely it wasn't like a spray fountain. If she was wearing dark clothing, it's well possible nobody noticed a thing.

 

I don't know if you're female, but from my experience, without becoming too graphic: no, that is not possible.

[killuridols]

1 hour ago, Scream of the Butterfly said:

To be clear, she didn't say Steven or anybody from the band helped her with the miscarriage. She encountered Steven when she left the bathroom after the fact. Whether or not Steven noticed that something was off with her, he probably didn't realize it was because she had just miscarried, especially if he didn't even know she was pregnant.

LM said she was in a bad state when she came out of the bathroom. I think she says she went back to puke after the miscarriage.... Also, you think her clothes were all clean after that mess?

I'm sure Steven asked her why she was like that... her answer is a mistery, though it is not clear for me if the band knew or not that she had a miscarriage at the bathroom. I have no idea what the Troubadour looks inside or how many people fit in, but from what I saw in 2016, it is a small place.... in such a small place, rumors run like water, you think no one would notice the dead baby in the bathroom? Or did she flush it away?

Seriously, I can't get around the idea that this whole thing went unnoticed by absolutely no one.

1 hour ago, Scream of the Butterfly said:

If girls can pull it off and give birth full term without any help and without anybody noticing, it's no surprise that somebody could do the same with a miscarriage and with the help of two friends. There have been cases where nobody knew a girl had given birth until a baby was found in a toilet bowl.

I dont think that scenario is possible in the bathroom of a club full of people.... I've heard of things like that happening at 4am at a parking lot or some other lonely place, and mainly because the woman didn't want to get caught. But aren't we talking about a 15 years old girl here?? Someone completely unexperienced with pregnancies and all that jazz?? Or was she experienced?

1 hour ago, Scream of the Butterfly said:

Don't Cry was her favorite song. I suppose there may have been some comfort or beauty in hearing that song in her moment of agony, but I don't think she's telling it as a fond memory. Not all movies are good movies.

WTF.... again, she was 15 years old, she wanted the baby (according to her statement), no one wants to be in a bar at that moment.... really.... a girl in that situation would normally scream for her mom, to be taken care of, to get cleaned up, not to sit down with a bunch of drunken dudes

Heck, even grown up women do not want to be alone under such circumstances... All pregnant women need comfort and support from their loved ones, whether it is their mothers, their husband, a sister or a doula.

2 hours ago, Scream of the Butterfly said:

I can't be 100% that everything happened as she said it happened, but there's nothing there that would make me go "there's no way this could have happened".

I'm not saying "there's no way", I am saying some stuff should be taken with a grain of salt.

Also, these are two different instances of the drama: one thing is the pregnancy/miscarriage, another different is the rape.

LM came here to denounce her rape. Many of us supported her version because we believed the story when she first told it.

The pregnancy/miscarriage could have happened or not but I do not think it invalidates the rape episode.