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GNR Women's Discussion - Part 2

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4 minutes ago, janrichmond said:

To me this is the biggest red flag in this whole story. Anyone who has suffered a miscarriage or know someone who has, will know how ludicrous this is. We're not talking just having a heavy period. It's painful and there's blood, lots of blood. 

I'm guessing this 'little Michelle' has never had kids? 

She has kids.

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Women have given birth to full term babies alone in the bathroom without any help and without telling anybody about it. I don't find it particularly difficult to believe that the miscarriage may have happened exactly as she described it.

The relationship with Little Michelle didn't last for very long. I think Axl has typically been a good guy in the early stages of his relationships. Stephanie said that they never fought or had any disagreements (which of course later on was no longer true).

 

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29 minutes ago, Scream of the Butterfly said:

Women have given birth to full term babies alone in the bathroom without any help and without telling anybody about it. I don't find it particularly difficult to believe that the miscarriage may have happened exactly as she described it.

 

 

Do you honestly believe she just miscarries at 17 weeks and then carries on drinking at the bar? 

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28 minutes ago, janrichmond said:

Do you honestly believe she just miscarries at 17 weeks and then carries on drinking at the bar? 

Did she say she carried on drinking? She sat there bleeding while her friends were cleaning the scene of the miscarriage and the band was playing Don't Cry. She was describing how surreal it was.

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4 hours ago, killuridols said:

I believe it because, to me, actions speak louder than mere words.

Let's quote what Axl has said about Dylan in the press:
"I’m around a three-year-old baby now and then, and sometimes after a few days it’s just too overwhelming for me. My head is spinning because of the changes it’s putting me through."
"[...] We want to maintain our friendship and be really protective of how our relationship affects Dylan. Dylan gets priority over us, because he could be greatly damaged, and I don’t want that to happen."

Beautiful words, right? But then he goes beating up the hell out of the mother and talking shit about her, and he expects those things will not affect Dylan?

If he had loved Dylan as much as his tongue spoke, then he wouldn't have exposed the kid in his videos and interviews and wouldn't have hurt his mother like he did. Because the most precious thing a kid has when they are 1-2-3 years old is their mother.

In my opinion, he saw in Dylan a reflection of himself when he was a child and he was loving the Axl he saw in Dylan, not the different being that Dylan really was >>
"[...] My growth was stopped at two years old. And when they talk about Axl Rose being a screaming two-year-old, they’re right. There’s a screaming two-year-old who’s real pissed off and hides and won’t show himself that often, even to me. Because I couldn’t protect him. And the world didn’t protect him. And women didn’t protect him and basically thought he should be put out of existence."

 

I mostly agree with this. It’s always baffled me just how attached Axl got. He and Steph had a long distance relationship - for the entire time they were together he was on the UYI tour and she was one of the most in demand models on the planet. How much time could he really have spent with Dylan?

Obviously he intended for them to be a family but it seems more based on his romantic fantasies than anything else. Like if she hadn’t left, I’m not sure a baby 24/7 in the same house whose needs came before his would’ve worked for him long term 🤣 

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3 hours ago, janrichmond said:

I'm guessing this 'little Michelle' has never had kids? 

I think she has two but I could be wrong. 

The funny thing is that all women who Axl allegedly "got pregnant" do not have an Axl child. But they all do have their own bunch of children, while Axl has none. I become suspicious of that. 

2 hours ago, Scream of the Butterfly said:

Women have given birth to full term babies alone in the bathroom without any help and without telling anybody about it. I don't find it particularly difficult to believe that the miscarriage may have happened exactly as she described it.

The relationship with Little Michelle didn't last for very long. I think Axl has typically been a good guy in the early stages of his relationships. Stephanie said that they never fought or had any disagreements (which of course later on was no longer true).

LM says she was with two friends when the miscarriage happened and they helped her with all that. She even said Steven Adler helped her too, so hopefully Steven would remember if he was asked about it?

I'm not saying it's not possible that a woman could have a miscarriage in the bathroom of the bar, but she was over 3 months pregnant... can you imagine that mess? That's a big thing to come out of your body and she didn't freak out? She was 15 years old, any girl would have freaked out or pass out ... unless this wasn't the first time she was in a similar situation.... Still, it's all too violent to even be real and when she's telling the story about the band playing Dont Cry, her voice becomes soft and sweet, she even says that the whole moment was like out of a movie :wacko:... how can she have fond memories of such a terrible moment? I can't get around that.

Axl may have been nice and good to her while she was accessible and available to have sex with him, but I dont believe in Axl being a "nice boyfriend", a caring guy who wanted to see her every day or being happy about her pregnancy and then snapping like she described. Probably that's the way she projected him to be but from his account of the story, she was just a crazy chick who was obsessed with him and while he did have sex with her, that's all he wanted with her and probably the pregnancy or something else made him snap and turn violent to her, which is the only part of the story that I believe.

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On 9/15/2019 at 2:59 AM, killuridols said:

LM says she was with two friends when the miscarriage happened and they helped her with all that. She even said Steven Adler helped her too, so hopefully Steven would remember if he was asked about it?

To be clear, she didn't say Steven or anybody from the band helped her with the miscarriage. She encountered Steven when she left the bathroom after the fact. Whether or not Steven noticed that something was off with her, he probably didn't realize it was because she had just miscarried, especially if he didn't even know she was pregnant.

She did say she was still "bleeding all over the place" when she was sitting at the table, but most likely it wasn't like a spray fountain. If she was wearing dark clothing, it's well possible nobody noticed a thing.

With that said, I think it would be interesting if somebody asked Steven about the whole incident (not just the miscarriage).

On 9/15/2019 at 2:59 AM, killuridols said:

I'm not saying it's not possible that a woman could have a miscarriage in the bathroom of the bar, but she was over 3 months pregnant... can you imagine that mess? That's a big thing to come out of your body and she didn't freak out? She was 15 years old, any girl would have freaked out or pass out ... unless this wasn't the first time she was in a similar situation.... Still, it's all too violent to even be real and when she's telling the story about the band playing Dont Cry, her voice becomes soft and sweet, she even says that the whole moment was like out of a movie :wacko:... how can she have fond memories of such a terrible moment? I can't get around that.

If girls can pull it off and give birth full term without any help and without anybody noticing, it's no surprise that somebody could do the same with a miscarriage and with the help of two friends. There have been cases where nobody knew a girl had given birth until a baby was found in a toilet bowl.

Don't Cry was her favorite song. I suppose there may have been some comfort or beauty in hearing that song in her moment of agony, but I don't think she's telling it as a fond memory. Not all movies are good movies.

I can't be 100% that everything happened as she said it happened, but there's nothing there that would make me go "there's no way this could have happened".

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1 hour ago, Scream of the Butterfly said:

To be clear, she didn't say Steven or anybody from the band helped her with the miscarriage. She encountered Steven when she left the bathroom after the fact. Whether or not Steven noticed that something was off with her, he probably didn't realize it was because she had just miscarried, especially if he didn't even know she was pregnant.

LM said she was in a bad state when she came out of the bathroom. I think she says she went back to puke after the miscarriage.... Also, you think her clothes were all clean after that mess? :o

I'm sure Steven asked her why she was like that... her answer is a mistery, though it is not clear for me if the band knew or not that she had a miscarriage at the bathroom. I have no idea what the Troubadour looks inside or how many people fit in, but from what I saw in 2016, it is a small place.... in such a small place, rumors run like water, you think no one would notice the dead baby in the bathroom? Or did she flush it away? :facepalm:

Seriously, I can't get around the idea that this whole thing went unnoticed by absolutely no one.

1 hour ago, Scream of the Butterfly said:

If girls can pull it off and give birth full term without any help and without anybody noticing, it's no surprise that somebody could do the same with a miscarriage and with the help of two friends. There have been cases where nobody knew a girl had given birth until a baby was found in a toilet bowl.

I dont think that scenario is possible in the bathroom of a club full of people.... I've heard of things like that happening at 4am at a parking lot or some other lonely place, and mainly because the woman didn't want to get caught. But aren't we talking about a 15 years old girl here?? Someone completely unexperienced with pregnancies and all that jazz?? Or was she experienced?

1 hour ago, Scream of the Butterfly said:

Don't Cry was her favorite song. I suppose there may have been some comfort or beauty in hearing that song in her moment of agony, but I don't think she's telling it as a fond memory. Not all movies are good movies.

WTF.... again, she was 15 years old, she wanted the baby (according to her statement), no one wants to be in a bar at that moment.... really.... a girl in that situation would normally scream for her mom, to be taken care of, to get cleaned up, not to sit down with a bunch of drunken dudes :wacko:

Heck, even grown up women do not want to be alone under such circumstances... All pregnant women need comfort and support from their loved ones, whether it is their mothers, their husband, a sister or a doula.

2 hours ago, Scream of the Butterfly said:

I can't be 100% that everything happened as she said it happened, but there's nothing there that would make me go "there's no way this could have happened".

I'm not saying "there's no way", I am saying some stuff should be taken with a grain of salt.

Also, these are two different instances of the drama: one thing is the pregnancy/miscarriage, another different is the rape.

LM came here to denounce her rape. Many of us supported her version because we believed the story when she first told it.

The pregnancy/miscarriage could have happened or not but I do not think it invalidates the rape episode.

 

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1 hour ago, killuridols said:

LM came here to denounce her rape. Many of us supported her version because we believed the story when she first told it

 I don't get why people believed her. As far as I know she claimed to be the girl who was in this alledge incident with Axl. What evidence did she provide? My issue is not with you nor with any other forum member. I think the mods here should've been more careful. I never saw any evidence suggesting she is who she says she is. We can't allow people to come here and tell stories without any proof of their true identity nor any evidence about truthful information. Otherwise sooner or later we might end up in a big trouble. One thing is Slash talking about past events in his book. And another thing is some woman coming here out of nowhere.

 

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31 minutes ago, Padme said:

 I don't get why people believed her. As far as I know she claimed to be the girl who was in this alledge incident with Axl. What evidence did she provide? My issue is not with you nor with any other forum member. I think the mods here should've been more careful. I never saw any evidence suggesting she is who she says she is. We can't allow people to come here and tell stories without any proof of their true identity nor any evidence about truthful information. Otherwise sooner or later we might end up in a big trouble. One thing is Slash talking about past events in his book. And another thing is some woman coming here out of nowhere.

Well, everybody got their reasons to believe her or not. I have mine and as I have always stated, if they had sex with minors, that solely fact constitutes rape, so to me there's not much to be discussed about that.

Now, if she is the same person that was mentioned in the books and magazines or not.... well... that question is valid too. But we are not the police, so we don't have any right to be asking her for evidence of her identity. At least myself, I would feel very akward asking her to show me her ID or something, and that wouldn't answer the question either, because we don't know the name of the person mentioned by GN'R members. So the only way to go about this is to either believe her or not, and that's all you can do :shrugs:

I repeat, we're not the police, we're not lawyers, we're not judges, we're not the justice. Trying to be that is wrong, in my opinion.

And I don't agree that she shouldn't be allowed to post here..... I mean, why? She is an adult now and she's responsible for her sayings. We are not. So how would we end up in a big trouble? :question:
I know I wouldn't. None of us has nothing to do with that.

Slash is no one better or worse than this woman. He's just a famous guitarist in a famous band, but when it comes to law, I want to believe that he's just the same as the rest of the citizens. I don't see how his word is more valid than mine or yours.... that's not how things work...

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21 minutes ago, killuridols said:

don't have any right to be asking her for evidence of her identity.

I don't think we can't let any given person to make acussations without knowing who that person is

And the original woman in question had a day in court with Axl. She refused to testify. She didn't help her own case

 Let's assume it was really LM. She was willing to tell us about everything that took place. But she didn't want to tell the judge? The judge could've done something about it. We can't.

Sorry, but I think she is just someone looking for attention or someone with a hidden agenda

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3 hours ago, Padme said:

I don't think we can't let any given person to make acussations without knowing who that person is

What do you need her real name for? Are you some kind of authority? I don't think you can ask for that information. Actually, I think it would be illegal to proceed in that way and you wouldn't get anything from it, because you don't know the name of the original accuser, so you wouldn't have a way to know if it is her or not.

3 hours ago, Padme said:

And the original woman in question had a day in court with Axl. She refused to testify. She didn't help her own case

 Let's assume it was really LM. She was willing to tell us about everything that took place. But she didn't want to tell the judge? The judge could've done something about it. We can't.

Right. But you don't have to be so literal about these things.

LM didn't come here for us to solve her problems. She just wanted to tell her side of the story now that she's got enough strength to talk about it. If she's that 15 years old girl who got abused by Axl under those circumstances, it is not hard to figure out why  she didn't speak up for herself at the time.

I get it is odd that she chose this forum to open up, a place with a majority of patriarchal male fans and a high rate of patriarchal females, it was sort of naive to think she would find a great amount of support here :shrugs:

3 hours ago, Padme said:

Sorry, but I think she is just someone looking for attention or someone with a hidden agenda

Looking for attention?..Maybe... Doesn't she have a book coming up? 

A hidden agenda? .. like what? Money? Pff, lol, there's no way she'd get any money from this. Too much time has passed, she's not Steph nor Erin and she would need a very powerful assmble in order to make the world of rock stumble. But rock is dead right now, so her timing is wrong from the beginning.

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If you're a female who has social skills, average or above brainpower and so don't go around believing in bullshit; you're just frickin' brainwashed by patriarchal men...don't you get that?! :lol:

What condescending and ironically anti-women ridiculous bullshit lol.

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8 hours ago, Padme said:

 I don't get why people believed her. As far as I know she claimed to be the girl who was in this alledge incident with Axl. What evidence did she provide? My issue is not with you nor with any other forum member. I think the mods here should've been more careful. I never saw any evidence suggesting she is who she says she is. We can't allow people to come here and tell stories without any proof of their true identity nor any evidence about truthful information. Otherwise sooner or later we might end up in a big trouble. One thing is Slash talking about past events in his book. And another thing is some woman coming here out of nowhere.

 

Don't you think people like Raz Cue would recognize if she wasn't the person she said she was? She has posted pictures of herself on her social media. Michelle Young also mentioned her. Somebody thought Michelle Young was the Michelle in question. She replied it wasn't her but another Michelle and that they used to call her Little Michelle. Little Michelle mentioned this forum on her social media, so we know the person on social media and the person who posted here are one and the same. Regardless of whether you believe her version of what really happened, it seems reasonably well established that this is a real person from the band's past.

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So now Izzy was there in the loft of the closet studio - only now he was with the girl that Axl had been fucking in the parking lot and who had stumbled out of the outhouse puking just before Axl had grabbed LM and ripped her clothes off. 

She never really saw him but she knew he was there and he didn’t do anything to stop Axl. He never said anything, he never stopped anything (her words) 

I thought she said when she came here that Izzy was fucked up and sleeping? 

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10 minutes ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

So now Izzy was there in the loft of the closet studio - only now he was with the girl that Axl had been fucking in the parking lot and who had stumbled out of the outhouse puking just before Axl had grabbed LM and ripped her clothes off. 

She never really saw him but she knew he was there and he didn’t do anything to stop Axl. He never said anything, he never stopped anything (her words) 

I thought she said when she came here that Izzy was fucked up and sleeping? 

Well, I think the issue here is really quite obvious.

 

 

 

 

You're part of the patriarchy.

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2 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

You're part of the patriarchy.

Definitely not. People can read my post history for their answer to that. 

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1 minute ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

Definitely not. People can read my post history for their answer to that. 

No. You're part of patriarchy. Don't be so literal - I interpret your words as patriarchal, that's my truth. :lol:

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Re the identity thing. LM contacted us outside of the forum, we have no reason to believe she isn't the same LM that posts on social media and elsewhere. Beyond that we can't verify anything about her story. Whether anyone here believes her, part believes her or whatever is up to them. The reason we allowed her to post is because if other people (Raz Cue, Slash etc..) are discussing her publicly we felt she has right of reply especially as she was already being discussed on the forum.

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LM is with high probability a woman/girl messing around the band long enough to get recognized. Story has so many holes and flaws that it seems to me that what she says is a collection of (vague) memories, gossip, information in media and fills that some of which might have happened, some of that might have happened to another people, or her at some another point of her life, some may be made up. Band is back, high in the saddle, some circumstances around Little Michelle might have changed, so she can pass better with the story, or at least she thought that, because her reaction is not what you expect from someone who went through it first person... earn bucks, compassion... who knows? 

Side notes: We process stress differently and in major stress there is one kind of reaction, "dead bug", certain person is somehow depersonalized and seems like normal at first sight, but with more questioning they just blackout and they don't remember most or any of what happened or what you told them; they may seem normal and act normal, eventually function. No tears, no meltdown...

Fourteen years old fallen in love is own kind of force of nature, no brakes, no regrets, it's big, and intense. I have worked in camps many times, if there are teenagers, it usually happens that a 13-15 years old girl has crush on a staff member, usually in age 20-25. In camp you have some lots of mechanisms to recognize the situation and keep it in no harm mode, but I am quiet not sure about bunch of drugged up individuals (mostly men) with their own issues, inexperienced with this specific thing... I also don't think they asked anyone for ID before banging and passing drinks at their place. The teenage girl, like, their love's intense and flattering, they are easy, naive, they stick around, you name it, but for same reasons this little woman can become serious pain in the ass if love of their life doesn't act the way she imagined. The situation is difficult and may go south easily and with nasty ending.

Armchair psychology: Bipolar people don't go through all the emotional scale and back again in 20 minutes, it lasts weeks to months in them, but borderline personalities can change their emotional state in a blink of an eye. Also people under decompensated stress.

Edited by Alja

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4 hours ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

So now Izzy was there in the loft of the closet studio - only now he was with the girl that Axl had been fucking in the parking lot and who had stumbled out of the outhouse puking just before Axl had grabbed LM and ripped her clothes off. 

She never really saw him but she knew he was there and he didn’t do anything to stop Axl. He never said anything, he never stopped anything (her words) 

I thought she said when she came here that Izzy was fucked up and sleeping? 

LOL!!! Now Izzy as well? :lol:

Just out of curiosity, where were Duff and Adler? :rolleyes:

 

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