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Gracii Guns

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2 hours ago, action said:

hitler wasn't always very coherent or clear on his motivations, but it's my understanding that hitler argued that communism was the work of karl marx (a jew) and a conspiracy of the "international jew-capital" to rule the world. likewise, hitler thought of the USA as a conspiracy of the "international capital jew" too.

he linked this to race too for some reason. hitler was not sincere nor making sense, and in fact betrayed his own ideals of battling the world domination by world banks. because, if your concern is the growing grip of the capital on world affairs, why did women and children have to die?

You are missing out the specifically racial stuff. Nazism believed the Aryan race is locked in a ''winner takes all'' Hegelian-Darwinist struggle with the Jewish nation in which one race will prevail, the other be liquidated. Jews were deemed to be polluting the Aryan race. This was the ideology which underpinned both the Nuremberg Laws and The Final Solution, to protect the Volk from Blut or Rassenschande (blood/race shame) and reclaim the racial purity of the Herrenvolk and the Aryan nations of Europe.

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For us, it is a problem of whether our nation can ever recover its health, whether the Jewish spirit can ever really be eradicated.  Don't be misled into thinking you can fight a disease without killing the carrier, without destroying the bacillus.  Don't think you can fight racial tuberculosis without taking care to rid the nation of the carrier of that racial tuberculosis.  This Jewish contamination will not subside, this poisoning of the nation will not end, until the carrier himself, the Jew, has been banished from our midst. 

- Hitler, Salzburg, 7 or 8 August 1920 (NSDAP meeting).

This pseudo-scientific drivel both fed-off and supplied more traditional forms of European antisemitism that you have cited, pertaining to capitalism and Bolshevism, as well as Medieval Christian - the oldest form of European antisemitism. 

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41 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

You are missing out the specifically racial stuff. Nazism believed the Aryan race is locked in a ''winner takes all'' Hegelian-Darwinist struggle with the Jewish nation in which one race will prevail, the other be liquidated. Jews were deemed to be polluting the Aryan race. This was the ideology which underpinned both the Nuremberg Laws and The Final Solution, to protect the Volk from Blut or Rassenschande (blood/race shame) and reclaim the racial purity of the Herrenvolk and the Aryan nations of Europe.

- Hitler, Salzburg, 7 or 8 August 1920 (NSDAP meeting).

This pseudo-scientific drivel both fed-off and supplied more traditional forms of European antisemitism that you have cited, pertaining to capitalism and Bolshevism, as well as Medieval Christian - the oldest form of European antisemitism. 

I'm still trying to connect all of that with his fundamental beef with the big capital, which played a big role in his hate towards jews.

I don't see how he could go from "germany is being attacked by the haute finance, we need to stop that" to "german blood needs to remain pure". what does finance have to do with race, and why would a pure race be any counterweight against the laws of economy?

Ironically, a lot of the issues the far left of today have with the world (ie the world being controlled and the environment being destroyed by the international banks / corporations and the elite), are issues that hitler specifically adressed in his book. his book, at times, reads like a far left manifest. but for some reason, he figured racial purity of the herrenvolk was the means to reach this goal. This to me (and everyone else of course), does not make any sense. Personally I don't see the link between race and capital (the subject of that anti semetic art you mentioned earlier in this thread)

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8 minutes ago, action said:

I'm still trying to connect all of that with his fundamental beef with the big capital, which played a big role in his hate towards jews.

I don't see how he could go from "germany is being attacked by the haute finance, we need to stop that" to "german blood needs to remain pure". what does finance have to do with race, and why would a pure race be any counterweight against the laws of economy?

Ironically, a lot of the issues the far left of today have with the world (ie the world being controlled and the environment being destroyed by the international banks / corporations and the elite), are issues that hitler specifically adressed in his book. his book, at times, reads like a far left manifest. but for some reason, he figured racial purity of the herrenvolk was the means to reach this goal. This to me (and everyone else of course), does not make any sense. Personally I don't see the link between race and capital (the subject of that anti semetic art you mentioned earlier in this thread)

You are making the mistake in trying to find some logic or intellect in national socialism. There is none.

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8 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

You are making the mistake in trying to find some logic or intellect in national socialism. There is none.

it's fascinating sometimes to try to get in the mind of a lunatic, but in some cases it's also necessary.

usually, lunatics make some sense in their senselessness. there's usually some kind of thread to balance everything out.

with Hitler, it's important to do so. Neo nazis still exist, and they're basing their views on the same ideology. I think that the best way to get them off their belief, is to try to show them the inconsistencies in their belief. I did the exercise to follow Hitler's reasoning from point A to B, but somewhere along the line he lost me. There is no reason for that, which is frustrating and frankly a bit worrying. As it stands, you can merely tell these guys that "there is no logic", which I think leaves something to be desired.

Ironic as it sounds, I think neonazis should read hitler's book. then, they would come to the conlusion that he's the biggest fraud in history.

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5 hours ago, action said:

it's fascinating sometimes to try to get in the mind of a lunatic, but in some cases it's also necessary.

usually, lunatics make some sense in their senselessness. there's usually some kind of thread to balance everything out.

with Hitler, it's important to do so. Neo nazis still exist, and they're basing their views on the same ideology. I think that the best way to get them off their belief, is to try to show them the inconsistencies in their belief. I did the exercise to follow Hitler's reasoning from point A to B, but somewhere along the line he lost me. There is no reason for that, which is frustrating and frankly a bit worrying. As it stands, you can merely tell these guys that "there is no logic", which I think leaves something to be desired.

Ironic as it sounds, I think neonazis should read hitler's book. then, they would come to the conlusion that he's the biggest fraud in history.

I've read Mein Kampf.  Fuckin' hell, he don't half go on. 

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14 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

Or England, where anonymous arseholes pointlessly insult public figures they've never heard of for a laugh :lol:

In a addition to being sexy shes got the pedigree, with Dipak Nandy on one side and the House of Lord Byers on the other. She was your Shadow Secretary of Energy and Climate Change recently (I'll leave out that she was also shadow minister of children and charities :lol::smiley-confused2:). Bucketfoot says shes likely to loose her seat coming up, though.

The more I look at her dress the more I see a swan, does that do anything for you? Look with the beak and everything :lol:

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35 minutes ago, soon said:

In a addition to being sexy shes got the pedigree, with Dipak Nandy on one side and the House of Lord Byers on the other. She was your Shadow Secretary of Energy and Climate Change recently (I'll leave out that she was also shadow minister of children and charities :lol::smiley-confused2:). Bucketfoot says shes likely to loose her seat coming up, though.

The more I look at her dress the more I see a swan, does that do anything for you? Look with the beak and everything :lol:

I don't know what a shadow secetary is? :lol: I really shouldn't expose my ignorance like this!

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12 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

I don't know what a shadow secetary is? :lol: I really shouldn't expose my ignorance like this!

Nah man. Not at all. I looked up her wiki and it told me. :lol: Here we use different terminology but I think its the same as our 'opposition critics'? So far as I understand, its like when a party is the official opposition (having the second most seats), they appoint all the same roles as the governments cabinet. So the 'shadow' energy person would critique the 'official' governments energy policy and present different policy. Labours point person on the energy front, so to speak. Dies' will let me know if I got any of that wrong.

She would have worked with Canadas own Naomi Klein on green initiatives a few conventions ago, so now we're getting into sapiophile territory too :wub:

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2 hours ago, Len Cnut said:

I've read Mein Kampf.  Fuckin' hell, he don't half go on. 

it's a chore to get through the 700 or so pages, and I'm glad I finished it. I went through all sorts of feelings of dread and at points felt dirty reading it, but I also thought this was a necessary thing to do. godwin's law will tell you that whenever something is discussed, hitler will be brought up sooner or later. In the light of this, you can't participate in such a discussion without having a profound understanding of hitler's beliefs. People go on about Hitler all the time, but they haven't read his book. If they did, they would see that many of their views are being used by Hitler himself.

It's fashionable these days, to walk in marches for the climate, to accuse the big corporations and the elite riches of all that goes wrong in the world, but if they had read Hitlers book, they would have read that Hitler dedicated whole chapters to this very same issue.

My conclusion, after reading this book, is that I have not encountered one argument why women and children had to die. the book left me with many questions, but it also gave me new insights in some of the greater issues that people bring to the table. One thing that is clear to me though is: "we want peace, with violence if necessary", is one of the pillars of hitler's book, and it's now being used by the militant extreme left

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8 minutes ago, action said:

It's fashionable these days, to walk in marches for the climate, to accuse the big corporations and the elite riches of all that goes wrong in the world, but if they had read Hitlers book, they would have read that Hitler dedicated whole chapters to this very same issue.

What on earth is the suggestion here? :lol:. Seems like if you discuss the climate crisis enough someone will bring up Hitler.... Goodwins Law....

 

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7 minutes ago, soon said:

What on earth is the suggestion here? :lol:. Seems like if you discuss the climate crisis enough someone will bring up Hitler.... Goodwins Law....

 

that their tone and militant attitude (sometimes, using violence, even towards elder people), is very similar as what Hitler wrote when he adressed the international capital.

so similar is hitler's ideology to that of the extreme left, that the extreme left, while they are fighting against big corporations, do not spare their actions against ordinary people. Time and time again, examples are shown where militant extreme left people are attacking innocent people, including elder people. This sweeping step from going against the big corporations, to attacking ordinary people, is extactly what hitler did!

My suggestion would be, you read hitler's book yourself. Good luck plowing through the almost 800 pages

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11 minutes ago, action said:

that their tone and militant attitude (sometimes, using violence, even towards elder people), is very similar as what Hitler wrote when he adressed the international capital.

so similar is hitler's ideology to that of the extreme left, that the extreme left, while they are fighting against big corporations, do not spare their actions against ordinary people. Time and time again, examples are shown where militant extreme left people are attacking innocent people, including elder people. This sweeping step from going against the big corporations, to attacking ordinary people, is extactly what hitler did!

My suggestion would be, you read hitler's book yourself. Good luck plowing through the almost 800 pages

Opposing ecocide and neoliberal capitalism means Im like Hitler. Got it. You added in some propaganda about these other people being violent and uncivilized - just like Hitler would do! :P

Pretty much everyone who's a reader over here has read Mein Kampf, its always been available unlike some places in Europe where it was banned or restricted. Ordered my copy from Amazon. Its an absolute mess. I would suggest to you that to understand neo nazis and the books contradictions one must understand the Dunning Kruger Effect. It explains how and why dumb people (neo nazis) think they are smart. As it applies to neo nazism the Effect can be seen as related to confirmation bias, but theres more too it. A really valuable model!!

 

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it's a chore to get through the 700 or so pages, and I'm glad I finished it. I went through all sorts of feelings of dread and at points felt dirty reading it, but I also thought this was a necessary thing to do. godwin's law will tell you that whenever something is discussed, hitler will be brought up sooner or later. In the light of this, you can't participate in such a discussion without having a profound understanding of hitler's beliefs. People go on about Hitler all the time, but they haven't read his book. If they did, they would see that many of their views are being used by Hitler himself.

Half the fucking thing is footnotes of the publisher basically refuting the absolute bollocks that Hitler spouted so as not to be like, seen to be validating those views.

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It's fashionable these days, to walk in marches for the climate, to accuse the big corporations and the elite riches of all that goes wrong in the world, but if they had read Hitlers book, they would have read that Hitler dedicated whole chapters to this very same issue.

Yeah, they very much had a back to mother earth touch to em, didn't they, all that blut and boden stuff, the hardworking, broad shouldered aryan superman.  Poor Nietsczhe, he might've gone crackers quicker if he'd've known what he'd inspire.

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My conclusion, after reading this book, is that I have not encountered one argument why women and children had to die. the book left me with many questions, but it also gave me new insights in some of the greater issues that people bring to the table. One thing that is clear to me though is: "we want peace, with violence if necessary", is one of the pillars of hitler's book, and it's now being used by the militant extreme left

The path to the shoah was a very disorganised one.  I don't think he never meant to exterminate 6 million people.  Thats not to say that the holocaust wasn't deliberate, I just don't think that, particularly from the outset, murder was the plan.  First you scapegoat em, malign em, dehumanize em, attack em but after all that they're still there so they had to do something about em, there was umpteen madcap fuckin' ideas proposed, send em back to Israel, send em to Madagascar, etc etc, all this madness...after which I think they just thought it would be quicker, and more profitable, to kill em.  Cuz you rob em and kill em.  Set up camps, put em away, far from the gaze, work em to death for the Reich or just flat out kill em.  Perhaps I'm being naive but I don't think it was the intention from the outset to kill em.  Nor do I think any of them truly believed they were subhuman, I think its just plain ol' human hatred.  With us darkies I think people truly believed the subhuman aspect but not so much with Jews, with Jews it was just fear and hatred.  Suspicion.  Scapegoating.  I have no right to be making such broad assumptions but, y'know, take for granted that this is the result of education (or miseducation perhaps) and not experience (I weren't alive back then). 

We're basically a fuckin' self obssessed species, the human race.  So you give a people who felt like they'd lost it all a sense of their own superiority and they'll follow you to the gates of hell or at least turn a blind eye to the more atrocious aspects of the cost of that sense of superiority.  6 million fuckin' human lives though man, fuck me.  And y'know what, people give it all that about 'how could the Germans let it happen?' etc etc but the real is, from my perspective at least, that everybody let it happen.  There are less culpable parties as there are with everything but overall, shit, you can't tell me that no one outside of Germany had a whiff of that shit, I don't buy it. 

And y'know what, I don't think we're much better today either.  I mean I don't think there's a fuckin' holocaust going on anywhere but human rights abuses on a mass scale are going on today and thats a fact, Burma, Kashmir, all over the fuckin' place but as long as we got our flat screen HD tellies and our home exer-bikes and fuckin' antioxidant fruit smoothies no one gives a fuck, not really. 

I don't know fuckin' human history from back to front and perhaps its just that I'm a 20th Century kid and the shoah was a 20th Century thing and maybe there has been worse out there in terms of human tragedy but nothing hits me quite as hard as fuckin'...reading and watching documentaries or seeing memorials of that shit.  Some call it grief tourism, the well fed and comfortable devoting a few hours of their insignificant little lives to this shit to make em feel better about themselves.  Perhaps thats too cynical a perspective even for me. 

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On 28/11/2019 at 2:45 PM, Len Cnut said:

Can we stop this Priti Patel bollocks? :lol:  She looks like a fuckin' horse.  A toffy-nosed stuck up fuckin' Tory horse.  She went to school down the road from where I am as it goes. 

Shes reasonably attractive for a politician but that's just like being the most coordinated person in the cerabl palsy dance class.

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You have to remember that National Socialism emanated from a multitude of usually (but not exclusively) far-right völkisch movements/societies, small political parties, as well as paramilitary (unemployed soldier) organisations which grew-up in Weimer Germany - predominately Bavaria which was a hotbed of far-right groupings. These groups were all quite independent of the NSDAP - this is true for even the SA, the brownshirts - but they fed and drew upon National Socialism and Hitler. One example is the (upper class) Thule Society which was obsessed with Aryan myths and pan-Germanism. Hitler, a bourgeois rabble-rousing tramp, was never a member of Thule but many influential Nazis were such as Hess and Rosenberg and they brought to the table racial, pseudo-scientific drivel. Hitler was already an antisemite in otherwords, blaming the Jews for the November 1918 Armistice and Versailles, but they introduced Hitler to different examples of antisemitism. The Thule Society was rather different from the (working class) paramilitary soldiers fraternities such as the Stahlhelm, and it was also different from other völkisch groups which were rather middle class and affiliated with German Romanticism and outdoor pursuits. 

There was also a plethora of literature preceding the Nazis, much of it unread but influential enough to shape National Socialism. Perhaps the most influential work was written by an Englishman, Foundations of the Nineteenth Century by Houston Stewart Chamberlain.

So you basically had a plethora of, sometimes contradictory, ideas, elements and groups who all coalesced around Hitler. 

(At no point is Nazi contradiction more clear than Nazi policy on religion incidentally).

Broadly the unifying elements of Nazism are,

- German nationalism 

- Hatred of the post-world war settlement

- Hatred of Bolshevism 

- Repudiation of western capitalism, democracy and parliamentarianism

- antisemitism 

You can hang a lot of different things onto that bunch.

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Tories trying to get political capital out of terror attack yet we have had a Tory government in some form since 2010 and it was apparently under Gove's stewardship of the Home Office various recommendations were jettisoned!!

- 2008 legislation being blamed by sexy Priti, yet why hasn't there been an attempt to repeal? The Tories have had a decade!!

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On 29-11-2019 at 3:25 PM, soon said:

Opposing ecocide and neoliberal capitalism means Im like Hitler. Got it.

I'm not talking about you. not everything is about you!

unless you are a militant extreme left who attacks elder people, you know, the people I adressed in my post.

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