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Gracii Guns

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3 minutes ago, soon said:

Start handing ou life rafts, maybe that'll drive the point home? haha

Why would anyone care about the environment if you are eating out of a food bank and/or living on the streets, or your housing estate is full of crime and drugs? Environmental issues are for people living in some degree of comfort and security.

Edited by DieselDaisy
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7 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Of course people might entrench themselves in their stupid opinions if people point out that they are stupid -- because after all, that's what you would expect stupid people to do --  but I don't think it is such a pronounced mechanism as you might think and I also don't think the media typically does that to people. It is a fine balancing act to do, though, in the USA people complain that all certain media do is make fun of Trump, but on the other hand he does a lot of ridiculous things. 

You'd make a great British remainer. Patronising and smug.

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11 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Why would anyone care about the environment if you are eating out of a food bank and/or living on the streets, or your housing estate is full of crime and drugs? Environmental issues are for people living in some degree of comfort and security.

Its sad if thats how you and others present and disseminate the situation and facts with those in destitution (not that we need you to spoon feed us info). I doubt its actually the reality because I am poor and have experienced homelessness and the entire time I was the person you speak to now. :) 

More than likely you are repeating a talking point that comes from people of stability, comfort and means, who are speaking on behalf of the poor. Its a fairly standard conservative talking point, so forgive me if me and everyone I know is evidence to the contrary. The history of where Marxist analysis take root also undermines your statement - its the working class. And the only useful reading on the climate crisis is rooted in critiques of capitalism.

Many employed workers have to use food banks. Please dont add insult to injury and suggest that they are uninformed and unconcerned. We are mobilized, and if Im honest, more informed then the average prol. :headbang:

Edited by soon
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4 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Why would anyone care about the environment if you are eating out of a food bank and/or living on the streets, or your housing estate is full of crime and drugs? Environmental issues are for people living in some degree of comfort and security.

There is definitely a point to be made that people who have more pressing issues to sort out have little time and resources to handle issues that are more distant, but an argument can also be made that one cannot only care about the more transient immediate and personal issues if one face something as apocalyptic as environmental collapse. Intelligent people will realize that there is little point in fighting the immediate issues if one then succumbs to the more frightful event later on. So intelligent and somewhat resourceful people would then try to do something about both. The problem is of course that environmental issues are not very likely to be the bane for anyone of us, but for future generations yet to fix that we might have to act now, and if there is one thing we humans are really bad at it is doing something for future generations if it means we have to sacrifice anything ourselves.

2 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

You'd make a great British remainer. Patronising and smug.

I thought it was a pretty indifferent description of the difference between stupid people and intelligent people. I think stupidity can be defined as the inability to reconsider one's opinion and rather entrench oneself when opposed, whereas intelligent people will tend to consider the argument hidden beneath an insult to see if there is any validity to it. It really has nothing to do with Brexit but is a general principle.

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18 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Of course people might entrench themselves in their stupid opinions if people point out that they are stupid -- because after all, that's what you would expect stupid people to do --  but I don't think it is such a pronounced mechanism as you might think and I also don't think the media typically does that to people. It is a fine balancing act to do, though, in the USA people complain that all certain media do is make fun of Trump, but on the other hand he does a lot of ridiculous things. 

Let's go beyond Trump for a minute because history didn't start in June of 2015. The trope of the coastal elite calling the flyover country people rubes and unsophisticated idiots has been going on in media and movies and on tv for decades. Then you get idiots like Rush Limbaugh stepping in to speak for the flyover people, but he's actually a fraud. He'll use rhetoric people in flyover country like, but then support the policies of the neoliberal plutocrats who own the media that started the whole cycle in the first place!

I'm just out here waiting for a third position that throws bombs at the media when necessary and actually advocates economic policies that would help middle and lower class people.

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10 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

There is definitely a point to be made that people who have more pressing issues to sort out have little time and resources to handle issues that are more distant, but an argument can also be made that one cannot only care about the more transient immediate and personal issues if one face something as apocalyptic as environmental collapse. Intelligent people will realize that there is little point in fighting the immediate issues if one then succumbs to the more frightful event later on. So intelligent and somewhat resourceful people would then try to do something about both. The problem is of course that environmental issues are not very likely to be the bane for anyone of us, but for future generations yet to fix that we might have to act now, and if there is one thing we humans are really bad at it is doing something for future generations if it means we have to sacrifice anything ourselves.

I thought it was a pretty indifferent description of the difference between stupid people and intelligent people. I think stupidity can be defined as the inability to reconsider one's opinion and rather entrench oneself when opposed, whereas intelligent people will tend to consider the argument hidden beneath an insult to see if there is any validity to it. It really has nothing to do with Brexit but is a general principle.

Off topic but I never realised how you Scandinavians had eugenics programs up and running before the Third Reich. The Swedes were sterilizing people until 1975. 

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1 hour ago, SoulMonster said:

Your argument is that people vote for morons out of spite?

Yes

 

1 hour ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

They absolutely do. If your media does nothing but insult certain classes of people as ignorant rubes, they're going to vote for the guy throwing bombs at said media. If you don't understand the psychology of this you'd be best steering clear of political issues and stick to academia.

I predict that the Democrats in this country are going to look at what's happening the UK and are going to be scared of 2020. Brexit and Trump happend at the exact same time. I predict that there will be a red wave(GOP) in 2020

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2 minutes ago, Gibsonfender2323 said:

Yes

 

I predict that the Democrats in this country are going to look at what's happening the UK and are going to be scared of 2020. Brexit and Trump happend at the exact same time. I predict that there will be a red wave(GOP) in 2020

While Trump very well may win. A red wave isn't really possible anymore due to the rapid demographic changes that have happened in recent decades. 

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49 minutes ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

Let's go beyond Trump for a minute because history didn't start in June of 2015. The trope of the coastal elite calling the flyover country people rubes and unsophisticated idiots has been going on in media and movies and on tv for decades. Then you get idiots like Rush Limbaugh stepping in to speak for the flyover people, but he's actually a fraud. He'll use rhetoric people in flyover country like, but then support the policies of the neoliberal plutocrats who own the media that started the whole cycle in the first place!

I'm just out here waiting for a third position that throws bombs at the media when necessary and actually advocates economic policies that would help middle and lower class people.

What you are describing here is the polarity between the coastal areas of the US and the inner regions, largely overlapping with the Democratic/Republican schism, and which is analogues to the southern vs northern polarity in England, both of which to a large extent really are aspects of the growing polarity between rural areas and urban areas. We see this all over the world. The largest exponent for maintaining this polarity on this forum is Diesel who never lets an opportunity go by to rant against urban Londoners while disparaging the terrible fate of northern fishermen. Basically it is a form of stereotyping and discrimination.

But we weren't really talking about this schism. We talked about people calling other people idiots not because of where they live but because of what they do, more specifically who they vote for. That is different. 

That being said, I would never refer to a Trump voter or a Boris Johnson voter as a moron. Nor someone voting for Brexit. Because I might be wrong.

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1 hour ago, SoulMonster said:

Sure, but there will always be a substantial uncertainty is such analyses. I will await a new poll before concluding in any direction.

Hopefully, the majority has shifted towards Leave again because then Brexit will be properly anchored with the majority of the population. Worst case scenario is really a Brexit when current polls indicate that it is against the wish of the majority of the people. That would be unfortunate. And such a thing would be unfortunate regardless of what the issue is, Brexit or any other.

 

Q8.-Reasons-for-vote-768x1002.jpg

Q9.-Top-issues-706x1024.jpg

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51 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Off topic but I never realised how you Scandinavians had eugenics programs up and running before the Third Reich. The Swedes were sterilizing people until 1975. 

I suppose you really have the potential to learn something new every day: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_eugenics#United_Kingdom

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2 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

I suppose you really have the potential to learn something new every day: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_eugenics#United_Kingdom

From which the most important point to extrapolate is, ''sterilisation programmes were never legalised''!

According to the book I'm reading on the Third Reich, Norway sterilized 40,000.

1 minute ago, SoulMonster said:

Perfect, that demonstrates in numbers that Brexit wasn't the sole motivation behind people's voting, e.g. NHS/hospitals were the most important issue to voters. But most people would understand this immediately.

72% of Conservative voters cited ''Getting Brexit Done'' haha!

 

 

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2 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

72% of Conservative voters cited ''Getting Brexit Done'' haha!

Meaning that 28 % didn't which proves my point that a large share of those that voted for the Tories didn't do it because of Brexit, which indicates that you cannot use the election results directly as a Brexit poll. It isn't as simply as your brain would like it.

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13 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Meaning that 28 % didn't which proves my point that a large share of those that voted for the Tories didn't do it because of Brexit, which indicates that you cannot use the election results directly as a Brexit poll. It isn't as simply as your brain would like it.

Look Soul, I don't want to leave and think this will be a disaster.

However it's over. It doesn't matter how a second referendum would have went, because there won't be one.

This isn't an argument worth having. If people wanted a second referendum, they should have voted Labour. Not enough people did.

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2 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

Meaning that 28 % didn't which proves my point that a large share of those that voted for the Tories didn't do it because of Brexit, which indicates that you cannot use the election results directly as a Brexit poll. It isn't as simply as your brain would like it.

Thus in Soul Monster logic 28% is a ''large share'' whereas 72% most certainly isn't!

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16 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

The London millionaire luvvies, the vacuous celebrities and Momentum Twitterati, hideous people like Hugh Grant, Steve Coogen, Irving Walsh and Gary Lineker, have to realise that telling people they're ''ignorant'', ''misinformed'', ''racist'' or worse (''gammon'') simply because they have a different opinion on the European Union to them, is not conducive to democratic debate, and I suspect deeply damaged their own cause in that Brexiteers become more entrenched having seen their opinions and personalities so belittled on social media and liberal platforms such as the BBC and Guardian. I bet a good percentage of Boris's vote consisted of people such as this. 

Oi, I’ll not hear a word against Steve Coogan and Irvine Welsh! :lol: 

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