British Politics

[DieselDaisy]

8 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

Thank you. I appreciate that.

But it really is obvious. You cannot have a flawed referendum where people vote over something they don't understand, and where the options aren't fleshed out, claim it is a final thing and hold the people's decision hostage because of this, especially when the result of that referendum isn't realized over years and people's opinion shift. You might not be Athenians, but you are supposedly democratic.

Let's say we had a referendum in Norway over cutting down all our trees. For various reasons people were made to think this was a good idea and you had a marginal decision to do it. Basically they were told that it would be good for the economy, that we could plant sweet corn instead or something. Then, for various reasons, this isn't realized for a few years, it is a highly complicated thing after all, and people come to their senses and realize how stupid it would be if they went through with the process. Maybe they realize it would be an ecological catastrophe. Maybe they realize that sweet corn don't grow this far north? Should some politicians then refuse the people to change their mind because they said it was a "once in a lifetime" referendum? Of course not, it is not too late to change opinion. It is only too late when all the trees are cut down.

Britain is a representative democracy, not a plebiscitary democracy.

I am wondering if you'd still be arguing for a second referendum if remain had won 52% and not leave? After all, the marginal would quantifiably still remain and, as you claim in the present circumstance, ''maybe people would have changed their mind?''.  

[SoulMonster]

7 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Nor would a second referendum (be legally binding) as plebiscites are not statues in the British constitution. We thus can just re-run this thing in perpetua...

Well, one would like to think that at some point you would be able to do a proper referendum and act on it in a timely fashion. 

Just now, DieselDaisy said:

Britain is a representative democracy, not a plebiscitary democracy.

I am wondering if you'd still be arguing for a second referendum if remain had won 52% and not leave? After all, the marginal would quantifiably still remain and, as you claim in the present circumstance, ''maybe people would have changed their mind?''.  

Of course I would. 

That being said, and this is something we haven't discussed before, but I think a decision if this size really should require more than a simple majority, perhaps 2/3. But that's a digression. 

[DieselDaisy]

Just now, SoulMonster said:

Well, one would like to think that at some point you would be able to do a proper referendum and act on it in a timely fashion. 

A referendum will inherently never be legally binding as Parliament is sovereign. 

[SoulMonster]

7 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

A referendum will inherently never be legally binding as Parliament is sovereign. 

Irrelevant to my point. 

[DieselDaisy]

My solution to the impasse would be a general election. The reason Brexit is in such a mess is that the British public are too (51.89%) Eurosceptic and the Commons too Europhile. It is also clear that May is a busted flush and needs ousting. By calling a snap election the British public will obtain the chamber they so desire. If there has been this swing towards remain then The Independent Group and Europhile Labour and Conservatives will do well and produce a Prime Minister bold enough to nullify Brexit. If there is an entrenchment of leave, we'll see how The Brexit Party do and there would probably be a Prime Minister from the ranks of the ERG capable of the necessary leadership to implement withdrawal of a Hard-Brexit, WTO rules if necessary.

[SoulMonster]

I kind of expected @DieselDaisy to quickly add a post here so I could continue my argument, but I don't really need his unwitting participation so here goes.

It is not uncommon for representative democracies to gauge the people's will inbetween elections. Norway have had a few of them, too. It is important when just relying on our representatives isn't good enough. When big decisions are to be made. When the representatives were elected at a time when the issue wasn't being discussed. Etc. It is good, really. It is pure democracy and the main reason it isn't done more often is because it is costly and time-consuming.

And it is usually not legally binding. It is the people's will directly communicated to the politicians in power. If politicians expect to have any credibility - and stay in office - they ought to act upon that will. If they fail to do so in a timely manner, and the opinion of the people shifts, then it is undemocratic of them to act as it hasn't. That is corruption of democracy. That is politicians acting after their own will and not the will of the people.

[AtariLegend]

Turns out Chukka is being funded by one of the Torries biggest Donner's 

What a shock. I mean why would a Tory financier fund a group interested in splitting the Labour party?

[DieselDaisy]

I don't know why you dislike them so much! They're vehemently pro-EU. They are centre-right Blairites (just like the EU). They would seem the desirable home - well them or the Lib Dems - for disenfranchised remainers. That they are affiliated with the Tories is no great surprise considering 2/3rds of the Tories are pro-EU also. 

[DieselDaisy]

If someone planted a bomb in that anti-Brexit crowd Waitrose would lose their entire customer base. 

[AtariLegend]

If you live near the Arsenal grounds, I assume you've probably signed the petition Len?

https://www.livefrombrexit.com/petitions/241584

Looks like alot of the locals are traitorous saboteurs trying to overturn the will of the public. Curious how Zack Goldsmith feels about his chances of hanging to his seat.

[soon]

 

[janrichmond]

11 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

If someone planted a bomb in that anti-Brexit crowd Waitrose would lose their entire customer base. 

Then i'd have a nice quiet shopping experience 

[DieselDaisy]

34 minutes ago, janrichmond said:

Then i'd have a nice quiet shopping experience 

I'm not sure if the toon even has a Waitrose. We are far too Brexity.

[Dazey]

5 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

I'm not sure if the toon even has a Waitrose. We are far too Brexity.

Waitrose do the best eggs, butter and white wine. Other than that I'd rather shop at M&S. 

[DieselDaisy]

6 hours ago, Dazey said:

Waitrose do the best eggs, butter and white wine. Other than that I'd rather shop at M&S. 

Bring back the butcher, baker and candlestick maker is what I say.

[Len Cnut]

16 hours ago, AtariLegend said:

If you live near the Arsenal grounds, I assume you've probably signed the petition Len?

https://www.livefrombrexit.com/petitions/241584

Looks like alot of the locals are traitorous saboteurs trying to overturn the will of the public. Curious how Zack Goldsmith feels about his chances of hanging to his seat.

I ain't really into politics man.  Was in Westminister yesterday though and there was this sign out there that read 'YOU ARE NOW DEFYING THE PEOPLE THERESA, YOUR BREXIT MANDATE HAS GONE'.  All over the tube there's stickers of the EU Flag, as well as this one I quite liked that said 'BOLLOCKS TO BREXIT' on the ground at Charring Cross   On Saturday there was these people on my road with EU flags draped over their backs on their way to a protest it looked like.

[DieselDaisy]

4 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

I ain't really into politics man.  Was in Westminister yesterday though and there was this sign out there that read 'YOU ARE NOW DEFYING THE PEOPLE THERESA, YOUR BREXIT MANDATE HAS GONE'.  All over the tube there's stickers of the EU Flag, as well as this one I quite liked that said 'BOLLOCKS TO BREXIT' on the ground at Charring Cross   On Saturday there was these people on my road with EU flags draped over their backs on their way to a protest it looked like.

I'd get into some arguments with that lot haha. Better stay clear.

[Len Cnut]

15 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

I'd get into some arguments with that lot haha. Better stay clear.

I dunno, I'm not arsed really, don't think I really know enough to hold an opinion on the matter and I think part of the problem with this whole mess is people not knowing what the fuck they're chatting about and the ramifications of it but gobbing off anyway, I just hope that whatever happens its for the best of the country.  Doing my job and paying my taxes, thats my contribution.

Edited March 25, 2019 by Len Cnut

[AtariLegend]

Bercow's really pissed them off this time.

Thank fuck. It was pretty boring till his jibe.

[Len Cnut]

23 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

Bring back the butcher, baker and candlestick maker is what I say.

The first two still exist but they exist in the sort of posh villagey type areas that would probably be anathema to you.  And their prices would put you off. 

Edited March 26, 2019 by Len Cnut

[DieselDaisy]

31 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

The first two still exist but they exist in the sort of posh villagey type areas that would probably be anathema to you.  And their prices would put you off. 

Bollocks. 

[Len Cnut]

11 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Bollocks. 

Go to Moor Park in Northwood, they've got a parade of shops there in a residential area where there's a butchers, a bakers, a post office...and they've been there since the 1930s.  Problem is each house there is upwards of 2 mil and is populated by the sort of people you'd probably despise.  Merchant Taylors school is there, they're nationally reknowned for their cricket.

[DieselDaisy]

Just now, Len Cnut said:

Go to Moor Park in Northwood, they've got a parade of shops there in a residential area where there's a butchers, a bakers, a post office...and they've been there since the 1930s.  Problem is each house there is upwards of 2 mil and is populated by the sort of people you'd probably despise.  Merchant Taylors school is there, they're nationally reknowned for their cricket.

There are two butchers in my town. There is also a fruit and veg shop. Sadly our fishmongers closed.

Middllesex use Northwood as an outground. Durham played there once. 

[Len Cnut]

11 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

There are two butchers in my town. There is also a fruit and veg shop. Sadly our fishmongers closed.

Middllesex use Northwood as an outground. Durham played there once. 

My point is a lot of these little out of the way villagey type places still have that old time set up but you've just got to be minted to live there.  They're the best places to live though in the sense of like, people leaving each other alone.  Working class people are like that too, they just let you get on.  Middle class are the worst though, the most intrusive curtain twitching people you'll ever come across, they're so aspirational and het up in trying to be like...a certain illusory paradigm they have in their mind that they just become this bundle of neuroses.  They're the sort of people to complain to the council because your fence is an 2 inches over regulation and hence blocking out their sunlight   Worst people in the world.  'why are you mowing your lawn on a Sunday, its my day off and I don't want to hear your lawn mower'

[DieselDaisy]

12 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

My point is a lot of these little out of the way villagey type places still have that old time set up but you've just got to be minted to live there.  They're the best places to live though in the sense of like, people leaving each other alone.  Working class people are like that too, they just let you get on.  Middle class are the worst though, the most intrusive curtain twitching people you'll ever come across, they're so aspirational and het up in trying to be like...a certain illusory paradigm they have in their mind that they just become this bundle of neuroses.  They're the sort of people to complain to the council because your fence is an 2 inches over regulation and hence blocking out their sunlight   Worst people in the world.  'why are you mowing your lawn on a Sunday, its my day off and I don't want to hear your lawn mower'

Here there is not really any places like that though, with ridiculous London style house prices.

My sister lives on one of those estates and some bitch two doors down ratted her out to the council for having a bit of rubbish in her garden.

It is that sort of place. 

You have two middle classes really. The lower middle classes who live on those shagger estates, walls made of cardboard, and then the upper middle classes - the ''Waitrosey crowd''. The latter drive 4 by 4s, tend to call their kids, who all have long hair, Tarquin and eat Quinuoa and bread sticks. The former drive volvos; the kids still are a tad chavvy in that they have cropped hair and wear football shirts, it is just that they go to the Algarve instead of Magaluf like the working classes. Sky TV is mandatory for the lower middle classes.