British Politics

[AtariLegend]

So is there actual public support for this porn block (delayed again till June)?

[DieselDaisy]

So punitive they're even trying to ban wanking.

[AtariLegend]

40 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

So punitive they're even trying to ban wanking.

You'll be able to buy a wanking pass at your local newsagent to remain anonymous though, as long as you don't mind being on a register of wankers. 

Though the BBFC might have a say on what types of appropriate porn people are watching and MPs like Damian Green of course will be exempt.

Edited April 21, 2019 by AtariLegend

[DieselDaisy]

1 minute ago, AtariLegend said:

You'll be able to buy a wanking pass at your local newsagent to remain anonymous though, as long as you don't mind be on a register of wankers. 

Though the BBFC might have a say on what types of appropriate porn people are watching and MPs like Damian Green of course will be exempt.

I always feel that during the Commons, all those MPs on their phones are really on pornhub. More intellectual than what transpires at Westminster I suppose so you can't blame them.

[DieselDaisy]

13 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

Futile. I mean you'll quite literally even wank over a leathery bag of toxic bones(Margaret Thatcher).

P.S. And cricket! *shudders*

I think that is more Dazey really. 

Cricket is superior than life itself.

[Graeme]

On 19/04/2019 at 6:56 AM, SoulMonster said:

Fix it, don't abandon it. 

Bearing in mind I hope that Scotland leaves the UK and joins the EU (or at least has a Norway-style arrangement with the EU), I find little pieces of rhetoric like this quite interesting. On the face of it you could turn around and apply "fix it, don't abandon it" to Scotland's situation within the UK and there are probably quite a few other statements that would ostensibly make supporters of independence in the EU seem totally self-contradictory, yet it's probably the most popular point of view amongst independence supporters and opinion polling has suggested that independence in the EU is more popular than a no-deal Brexit even among those who voted "no" to independence in 2014. 

[DieselDaisy]

42 minutes ago, Graeme said:

Bearing in mind I hope that Scotland leaves the UK and joins the EU (or at least has a Norway-style arrangement with the EU), I find little pieces of rhetoric like this quite interesting. On the face of it you could turn around and apply "fix it, don't abandon it" to Scotland's situation within the UK and there are probably quite a few other statements that would ostensibly make supporters of independence in the EU seem totally self-contradictory, yet it's probably the most popular point of view amongst independence supporters and opinion polling has suggested that independence in the EU is more popular than a no-deal Brexit even among those who voted "no" to independence in 2014. 

I don't understand why you'd want to be in the EU at all considering you claim to be a socialist and a fan of Nordic style socialism - NB., Norway, Iceland and Greenland are not in the EU - and that the EU is a Neoliberal organisation ran by corporate elites. It makes no sense to me!

PS

The SNP actually campaigned for ''no'' (to staying in the EC) in 1975.

Edited April 22, 2019 by DieselDaisy

[Len Cnut]

On 19/04/2019 at 9:55 PM, Dazey said:

I grew up in Redcar Cricket Club. Spent every summer weekend for years there as a kid. Love going to local cricket in the summer. Don't watch most of the game but it's great to check the scoreboard every hour or so while getting leathered.

DO you remember noises the old scoreboxes from back in the 80's made when scorers were pulling the strings to change the scores on the panels? "K,chunk! K,chunk! K,chunk! K,chunk! K,chunk!"  

Redcar has a cricket club eh?  I always thought cricket was the preserve of toffee arsed poshos...then again there's a lot of cricket up North so I suppose it can't be.

[DieselDaisy]

4 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

Redcar has a cricket club eh?  I always thought cricket was the preserve of toffee arsed poshos...then again there's a lot of cricket up North so I suppose it can't be.

The Northern Leagues. 

[Graeme]

1 hour ago, DieselDaisy said:

I don't understand why you'd want to be in the EU at all considering you claim to be a socialist and a fan of Nordic style socialism - NB., Norway, Iceland and Greenland are not in the EU - and that the EU is a Neoliberal organisation ran by corporate elites. It makes no sense to me!

PS

The SNP actually campaigned for ''no'' (to staying in the EC) in 1975.

Sweden, Denmark and Finland are though, so Nordic social democracy is entirely possible independent of EU membership, and all of these countries have a trade relationship and a free movement agreement with the EU. 

As I said, if Scotland were to have a trade agreement and free movement as part of the EEA then I'd be fine with that. I've been critical of the EU's handling of various issues, the financial crises in Greece, Spain and Ireland, for example, and of the political prioritisation it gives to multinational corporations, but between that and being stuck in a Union where it's clear that Scotland can vote for centre-left social democracy until the cows come home and still end up with the Tories cosying up to Trump's America, independence in the EU or EEA seems very much the lesser of two evils.

[DieselDaisy]

1 minute ago, Graeme said:

Sweden, Denmark and Finland are though, so Nordic social democracy is entirely possible independent of EU membership, and all of these countries have a trade relationship and a free movement agreement with the EU. 

As I said, if Scotland were to have a trade agreement and free movement as part of the EEA then I'd be fine with that. I've been critical of the EU's handling of various issues, the financial crises in Greece, Spain and Ireland, for example, and of the political prioritisation it gives to multinational corporations, but between that and being stuck in a Union where it's clear that Scotland can vote for centre-left social democracy until the cows come home and still end up with the Tories cosying up to Trump's America, independence in the EU or EEA seems very much the lesser of two evils.

Still makes no sense to me. I disagree with your political beliefs - as you know - but at least they'd make sense if you wanted an independent social democracy outside both the neoliberal UK and the neoliberal EU. The fact that the City of London and Tony Blair would agree with you on European Union membership should be your first warning!

The EU want an army and a navy. I didn't think you were that keen on expansive militaries?

 

[SoulMonster]

23 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Still makes no sense to me. 

Well.... Graeme has already pointed out that one can keep one's social democratic identity while being a member state of the EU, as evidenced by Sweden, Denmark and Finland, so from this follows the obvious conclusion that you can retain a sound national political system while reaping the rewards from being a member of the EU. Do you get it now? In general, Graeme is one of the most intelligent posters here so you really should pay attention to what he writes.

[DieselDaisy]

11 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Well.... Graeme has already pointed out that one can keep one's social democratic identity while being a member state of the EU, as evidenced by Sweden, Denmark and Finland, so from this follows the obvious conclusion that you can retain a sound national political system while reaping the rewards from being a member of the EU. Do you get it now? In general, Graeme is one of the most intelligent posters here so you really should pay attention to what he writes.

Finland are actually one of the most Eurosceptic of member states, e.g., The Finns Party, Finland's second largest party.

I agree with Graeme little politically as I am a supporter of the United Kingdom but respect his posting.

Edited April 22, 2019 by DieselDaisy

[DieselDaisy]

I'll tell you a few things about the EU. Junker, President of the Commission and therefore the most powerful man in the European Union, turned Luxembourg into a paradise for tax avoidance, charging a mere 1% on liability offloaded there. Then you have Barroso, Junker's predecessor. Barroso, of Goldman Sachs fame, yachting chum of Spiros Latsis, the same Latsis shipping magnate the Commission offloaded 10 million of aid to, aid destined for the Greek state! And then there is Martin Schulz, ex-President of the Parliament. For those who love the EU on here, I sincerely hope you are happy kissing goodbye to your nation-state status (are Scottish independence seekers willing to do this?) as Schulz is an arch-federalist who once stated that any country who did not sign a ''United States of Europe'' constitution should be ''booted out'' - Verhofstadt, leader of ALDE, is of similar mind.

In varietate concordia indeed.

There is more,

 

Edited April 23, 2019 by DieselDaisy

[DieselDaisy]

 

[DieselDaisy]

One thing that is forgotten is that when people refer to ''Norway'' they are really referring to an organisation that Britain was a founding member of, i.e., the EFTA (European Free Trade Association) - in fact Great Britain held the first two general sectaries of the EFTA, 1960 - 1972. The EFTA was founded as a more Eurorealist-maritime rival to the more federalist-continental EEC. When we joined the EC in 1973, Ted Heath presiding over the biggest loss of sovereignty since 1066, left our EFTA partners in the lurch, as well as our dominion friends - indeed the New Zealand economy spiraled into a recession as a consequence of Britain reneging on her trade deal.

Perfidious Albion indeed and all for a cesspit of rotten Franco-German bureaucrats/corporate elites. 

PS

The entirety of Scandinavia is either a EFTA state (Norway/Iceland), or has been a EFTA state (Finland/Denmark/Sweden). It goes without saying that Eurosceptic parties in the latter category often advocate returning to the EFTA. 

Edited April 23, 2019 by DieselDaisy

[DieselDaisy]

(Independent) Scotland would have to apply for either the EFTA/EEA or the EU. Pertaining to the latter it can take years to be accepted; indeed, nearly ten years separates Estonia's application and accession (1995-2004). Further, Scotland, for all her pro-EU rhetoric and depiction of England as the ''evil Brexiteer'' vis-a-vis Scotland the ''EU do-gooder'', would have a decent (or ''bad'' depending on your point of view) platform of Euroscepticism before even entering the European Union given that 38% (1,018,322) voted ''Leave'' in 2016! Conflating this with a similar answer given in the following opinion poll would make Scotland automatically one of the more Eurosceptic nations, significantly behind Greece yes, but only slightly behind France and about on par with Swedish. 

https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2016/jun/23/is-britain-most-eurosceptic-country

Edited April 23, 2019 by DieselDaisy

[Padme]

On 22/4/2019 at 12:41 PM, DieselDaisy said:

I don't understand why you'd want to be in the EU at all considering you claim to be a socialist and a fan of Nordic style socialism - NB., Norway, Iceland and Greenland are not in the EU - and that the EU is a Neoliberal organisation ran by corporate elites. It makes no sense to me!

PS

The SNP actually campaigned for ''no'' (to staying in the EC) in 1975.

The UK is also ran by corporate elites. Brexit won't change that. In fact nothing will change that. Unless the UK decides to become a communist republic. The UK has always had elites, strarting with the monarchy itself.

[SoulMonster]

The whole anti-elitism is a silly thing. Who would you want ruling you, the common man or your superiors? This trendy disdain and animosity towards anyone who are more successful than you (=the elite), whether they are politicians, business men, cultural leaders, etc, and grouping them together to a homogenous mass, is ridiculous, smells of conspiracy theories, and nothing good will come out of it. 

[DieselDaisy]

13 minutes ago, Padme said:

The UK is also ran by corporate elites. Brexit won't change that. In fact nothing will change that. Unless the UK decides to become a communist republic. The UK has always had elites, strarting with the monarchy itself.

I'd agree, and that is why London's elites overwhelmingly support Remain/EU. A defective domestic Parliament should not necessitate support for a defective foreign Parliament. They both should be condemned. To quote Tony Benn,

Quote

Some people genuinely believe that we shall never get social justice from the British Government, but we shall get it from Jacques Delors (i.e., the EU); They believe that a good king is better than a bad Parliament. I have never taken that view.

 

[DieselDaisy]

10 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

The whole anti-elitism is a silly thing. Who would you want ruling you, the common man or your superiors? This trendy disdain and animosity towards anyone who are more successful than you (=the elite), whether they are politicians, business men, cultural leaders, etc, and grouping them together to a homogenous mass, is ridiculous, smells of conspiracy theories, and nothing good will come out of it. 

That has basically been the historical trajectory of democracy, from Pericles to the Long Parliament, from Magna Carta to Marius, taking in such events as the American Declaration and the Great Reform Act along the way, i.e., the acquisition of power by a substrata, taking it away from an elite and embedding it in a ''commonweal''.  

Edited April 23, 2019 by DieselDaisy

[SoulMonster]

9 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

That has basically been the historical trajectory of democracy, from Pericles to the Long Parliament, from Magna Carta to Marius, taking in such events as the American Declaration and the Great Reform Act along the way, i.e., the acquisition of power by a substrata, taking it away from an elite and embedding it in a ''commonweal''.  

I get that. And we wouldn't want people who don't share the interests of the populace to rule. But my point is that the concept of the elite, as some distanced ruling class with no concern for the welfare of the common man, is a myth. In normal, well-functioning democracies, the elite is just normal people who rise to the top because they are really good at what the do. They aren't the results of nepotism, people born into privilege who through being part of a particular network are able to attain positions of power. It might be like that in non-functioning societies, but for most part it isn't true for our countries. 

What I do see, though, is that the concept of the elite creates a chiasm between the have-nots and those in various forms of power. And as these two groups diverge, as equality grows, the have-nots will turn to populism to fight what they believe is an uncaring elite who suppresses them. And when you have this defined group, anyone in any sort of power becomes an enemy. You belong to the elite? Then you don't care about me and I certainly don't care about you! So people will fight the elite, and be distrustful to anything they say or stand for, while trying to get persons of the people to replace them (like Trump).

In my experience, people thought to be the elite usually aren't much difference from you or I. They are just very good at what they do and have through merit attained whatever position of power they have. They care much about the same issues like you and me, but, to be blunt, we might not always get that. But then again, we are not the elite.

[DieselDaisy]

5 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

I get that. And we wouldn't want people who don't share the interests of the populace to rule. But my point is that the concept of the elite, as some distanced ruling class with no concern for the welfare of the common man, is a myth. In normal, well-functioning democracies, the elite is just normal people who rise to the top because they are really good at what the do. They aren't the results of nepotism, people born into privilege who through being part of a particular network are able to attain positions of power. It might be like that in non-functioning societies, but for most part it isn't true for our countries. 

What I do see, though, is that the concept of the elite creates a chiasm between the have-nots and those in various forms of power. And as these two groups diverge, as equality grows, the have-nots will turn to populism to fight what they believe is an uncaring elite who suppresses them. And when you have this defined group, anyone in any sort of power becomes an enemy. You belong to the elite? Then you don't care about me and I certainly don't care about you! So people will fight the elite, and be distrustful to anything they say or stand for, while trying to get persons of the people to replace them (like Trump).

In my experience, people thought to be the elite usually aren't much difference from you or I. They are just very good at what they do and have through merit attained whatever position of power they have. They care much about the same issues like you and me, but, to be blunt, we might not always get that. But then again, we are not the elite.

What you describe here is a technocracy, little of which applies to the European Union, stuffed as it is with the unelect who only owe their position to cronyism and corporate nepotism.

[Padme]

30 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

I'd agree, and that is why London's elites overwhelmingly support Remain/EU. A defective domestic Parliament should not necessitate support for a defective foreign Parliament. They both should be condemned. To quote Tony Benn,

 

So you want a populist UK government? You can have it within the EU, just look at Hungary.

[SoulMonster]

1 minute ago, DieselDaisy said:

What you describe here is a technocracy, little of which applies to the European Union, stuffed as it is with the unelect who only owe their position to cronyism and corporate nepotism.

Oh sorry, I wasn't at all talking about the EU. Just about this trend to rail against "the elite". Probably most relevant to American politics.