British Politics

[action]

7 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Ahh, the tolerant left,

 

from https://www.facinghistory.org/resource-library/teaching-holocaust-and-human-behavior/power-propaganda:

Whether or not propaganda was truthful or tasteful was irrelevant to the Nazis. Goebbels wrote in his diary, "No one can say your propaganda is too rough, too mean; these are not criteria by which it may be characterized. It ought not be decent nor ought it be gentle or soft or humble; it ought to lead to success." Hitler wrote in Mein Kampf that to achieve its purpose, propaganda must "be limited to a very few points and must harp on these in slogans until the last member of the public understands what you want him to understand by your slogan. As soon as you sacrifice this slogan and try to be many-sided, the effect will piddle away."

 

[DieselDaisy]

2 minutes ago, Graeme said:

It's such a bullshit fallacy when right-wingers criticise left-wingers for not tolerating intolerance. 

Are you actually defending the above? Seriously? It is a lynch mob. 

[janrichmond]

@DieselDaisy who was that bloke? What had he done? 

[DieselDaisy]

Just now, janrichmond said:

@DieselDaisy who was that bloke? What had he done? 

He was supporting Trump in some manner, whether it was Trump per se or merely Trump's right to visit here I don't know the answer.

 

[action]

11 minutes ago, Graeme said:

It's such a bullshit fallacy when right-wingers criticise left-wingers for not tolerating intolerance. 

I don't think intolerance should ever be supported. not in a free society.

as for that video: empty cans rattle the most

[janrichmond]

Just now, DieselDaisy said:

He was supporting Trump in some manner, whether it was Trump per se or merely Trump's right to visit here I don't know the answer.

 

Disgusting behavior by that mob! Unless he was behaving in a similar way

[DieselDaisy]

She, that fat woman, has in fairness apologised,

 

[action]

if you want to reduce public opinion to the extremes of the far left, and do it in such a violent way as shown in that video, then totalitarism is the logical consequence. the only way you're going to stop people from being critical and using their brains, is to install a totalitarian regime. History has shown time and time again, over the last thousands of years, that the only way you're going to achieve this, is through violence. This is an absolute matter of fact.

Already, the far left are using "violence" to achieve "peace". We should keep our ancestors (who fought the nazis) in mind and never let these lunatics take control. They should be ridiculed and reduced to their true proportions, at every possible opportunity

[DieselDaisy]

It is uncanny!

[action]

2 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

She, that fat woman, has in fairness apologised,

 

she gives strong women a bad name. See, I think if I should meet her and she was going off on another rage, I think I'd fear her a fair bit. Today I have learned that fearing her would turn me into a weak person

[Dazey]

2 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

She, that fat woman, has in fairness apologised,

 

To be fair to her, if your surname is GrrArgh then are you really responsible for your actions or is it just genetic? It’s like vilifying a catholic priest for fucking choirboys. Why would you? It’s clearly out of their control and in their DNA which they don’t believe in because Jesus. 

[Graeme]

10 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Are you actually defending the above? Seriously? It is a lynch mob. 

I was making a general observation that there's a huge difference between intolerance of people for things over which they have no control (gender, race, country of origin, sexual orientation, the economic circumstances into which they are born); and telling those who choose to be intolerant of people because of any of the aforementioned reasons that their views won't be tolerated. 

 

[DieselDaisy]

The ironic thing is anyone who watches that who has a passing interest in 20th century history would signify the mob as being the Nazis, that woman as being the Nazi. That is exactly the scene depicted in countless photographs from the 1930s (i.e., before the Holocaust). Crowds of German civilians including Hitlerjugend, egged on often by SA brownshirts, acted like that towards Jews. It is the same mob ''pack'' mentality. It is the same faces contorted with hate and cynicism. There is the same public ridicule. You see this in documentary evidence of, most prominently, Kristallnacht.

 

[Graeme]

1 minute ago, DieselDaisy said:

The ironic thing is anyone who watches that who has a passing interest in 20th century history would signify the mob as being the Nazis, that woman as being the Nazi. That is exactly the scene depicted in countless photographs from the 1930s (i.e., before the Holocaust). Crowds of German civilians including Hitlerjugend, egged on often by SA brownshirts, acted like that towards Jews. It is the same mob ''pack'' mentality. It is the same faces contorted with hate and cynicism. There is the same public ridicule. You see this in documentary evidence of, most prominently, Kristallnacht.

 

The huge, overwhelming, utterly fundamental difference is they were discriminating against people because of their ethnicity and their very existence. Not vehemently disagreeing with an adult who has chosen to express a political point of view, irrespective of how ugly the disagreement was.

[DieselDaisy]

20 minutes ago, Graeme said:

The huge, overwhelming, utterly fundamental difference is they were discriminating against people because of their ethnicity and their very existence. Not vehemently disagreeing with an adult who has chosen to express a political point of view, irrespective of how ugly the disagreement was.

No. The Nazis stigmatised basically everyone that didn't agree with them also, including people from across the political spectrum, far-left, centre and the traditional right. They also discriminated against people of faith, academics; teachers; historians; artists; scientists; novelists; journalists; filmmakers; actors, et al. The reason scenes like that were not as prevalent as those enacted against the Jews, is almost all political opponents were immediately rounded up and sent to concentration camps in the immediate aftermath of Machtergreifung. And, and this is especially so with Germans from the entertainment professions but also includes scientists and academics, many Germans fled. Jews, those who couldn't afford to migrate, remained in Germany until the Ghettos-Holocaust, facing escalating levels of antisemitism. 

But there were certainly examples of such scenes enacted against people solely because they had a different political point of view. Nazis made a public exhibition as part of a ''public shaming'' culture. 

Edited June 4, 2019 by DieselDaisy

[DieselDaisy]

When people use terms like ''Nazi'', as that fat women, they literally know nothing about the term. And, and I'm going off topic here but this was raised recently when Sadiq Khan was comparing Trump to a fascist and seemed to believe fascism and Nazism are equated, the Austrian Nazis actually fought against and later persecuted the Austrian fascist party! See how complicated it is then merely, ''find somebody who is right wing and call them Nazi''? The traditional German right were about the only form of domestic resistance to Hitler/Nazism, and many of them were monarchists, nationalists and militarists. They were also unbelievably brave. 

[DieselDaisy]

Very feline of you Gapes,

 

[Graeme]

12 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

No. The Nazis stigmatised basically everyone that didn't agree with them also, including people from across the political spectrum, far-left, centre and the traditional right. They also discriminated against people of faith, academics; teachers; historians; artists; scientists; novelists; journalists; filmmakers; actors, et al. The reason scenes like that were not as prevalent as those enacted against the Jews, is almost all political opponents were immediately rounded up and sent to concentration camps in the immediate aftermath of Machtergreifung. And, and this is especially so with Germans from the entertainment professions but also includes scientists and academics, many Germans fled. Jews, those who couldn't afford to migrate, remained in Germany until the Ghettos-Holocaust, facing escalating levels of antisemitism. 

But there were certainly examples of such scenes enacted against people solely because they had a different political point of view. Nazis made a public exhibition as part of a ''public shaming'' culture. 

That doesn't mean that anyone who ever stigmatises someone with a different political view is a Nazi. Shouting at a guy and flinging a milkshake isn't really comparable to putting people in a concentration camp, but that said I'm not really interested in trying to defend the actions of the protesters in the video. It's not something I would ever do. The idea I'm trying to dismantle here is the notion you suggested with the comment "the tolerant left" that left-wing intolerance of right-wing discrimination is morally equivalent to right-wing discrimination. 

[DieselDaisy]

1 hour ago, Graeme said:

That doesn't mean that anyone who ever stigmatises someone with a different political view is a Nazi.

I was particularly focusing in on the manner of possessing a different view, which, from that clip, entails mob mentality, contorted hateful expressions and ridicule.

1 hour ago, Graeme said:

Shouting at a guy and flinging a milkshake isn't really comparable to putting people in a concentration camp

I never once made an analogy between that scene and concentration camps! 

1 hour ago, Graeme said:

that left-wing intolerance of right-wing discrimination is morally equivalent to right-wing discrimination. 

This is just gibberish to me and if a right-wing crowd behaved in such a manner, I'll be the first one to criticise them. 

My point about the left is that the left - more the affluent/elitist left and not Britain's traditional left-wing - are increasingly well organised, concerted, vociferous and abusive. We have seen this surface a lot in the last few weeks. We saw climate change crazies bringing London and airports, including people travelling to work and visiting friends/families, to a complete standstill. We have seen people who voted for the opposing side in a democratic referendum demonised as uneducated provincial yokals and right-wing nationalists - we saw such an outburst from Elton John recently. Further, animal rights nutters have barricaded shops and harassed general members of the public about their shopping/eating preferences. 

 

Edited June 5, 2019 by DieselDaisy

[action]

7 hours ago, Graeme said:

The huge, overwhelming, utterly fundamental difference is they were discriminating against people because of their ethnicity and their very existence. Not vehemently disagreeing with an adult who has chosen to express a political point of view, irrespective of how ugly the disagreement was.

the difference is less than you make it out to be. Everyone that is a white male and heterosexual is being a target, because they are seen by the far left as "the evil majority"  that discriminates against minorities, almost as a given.

Proof of this, is in hollywood (a bastion of the left) swapping male characters in movies with women (ghostbusters, ocean's 8, terminator) and the race for woke points by making lead characters LGBT (batwoman, the next marvel movie). All of those examples are discrimination, based on gender and sexuality.

If you, as a white male who happens to be heterosexual, point out the forced nature of all of this, you are shouted at in similar way as in the video.

religion is another aspect the far left discriminate against. It is well documented how the far left mock christianity at every given opportunity. this is very apparent on twitter and instagram. Just look up some of the reactions after the burning of the notre dame for example. Some of those reactions were bloody disgusting. The thing they have with christianity has historically grown. Socialism and christianity never were great friends.

So yes, all the boxes are hit, that show blatantly that they are very similar to nazis

Edited June 5, 2019 by action

[DieselDaisy]

It starts at the top. When you have the leader of one of our political parties and elected MP, heir to the great historic whig/liberal tradition which stretches back to the 17th century, launching a manifesto with ''bollocks'' in the title, and another leader whose party, the great Labour Party, beacon for the working classes, is being investigated by the Equality and Human Rights Commission for antisemitism, and has made no secret of his friendship with terrorists, car bombers and child murders, you know our politics truly is in the gutter in the United Kingdom. Then you have the utter disdain for results of popular democratic referenda if you happen to be on the losing side. Apparently ''these referenda thingymebobs'' are things you merely re-run again until you get the desired result, and pertaining to ''once in a generation/lifetime'', ''generation/lifetime'' merely means ''a year or two''? They don't seem to be able to throw their hands up and say, ''yip, we lost but I'll respect the result''. I wish we could do that in football? Just re-run the thing if you lose! Then you have the utter ignorance of history. Everybody who disagrees and/or shows right tendencies is immediately branded a ''nazi'', ''fascist'' or ''(British) imperialist'' with little knowledge of what those terms actually mean - again it starts at the top with Mayor of London Sadiq Khan branding Trump ''a fascist''. 

With leaders such as these, how are their supporters expected to act any differently?

[Padme]

8 hours ago, action said:

the difference is less than you make it out to be. Everyone that is a white male and heterosexual is being a target, because they are seen by the far left as "the evil majority"  that discriminates against minorities, almost as a given.

Stereotyping is wrong. But unfortunatelly people like Trump and his supporters are reinforcing the believe that heterosexual white males are evil.

8 hours ago, action said:

religion is another aspect the far left discriminate against. It is well documented how the far left mock christianity at every given opportunity. this is very apparent on twitter and instagram. Just look up some of the reactions after the burning of the notre dame for example. Some of those reactions were bloody disgusting. The thing they have with christianity has historically grown. Socialism and christianity never were great friends.

Marx said that religion was the opium of the masses. So yes, the left even the moderates are not fans of religion. I'm afraid they have many reasons to feel that way. Extremist Muslims, extremist Jewish and extremist Christians hate everyone who disagree with their teachings. All they show is intolerance. They are more concerned about gays and holy wars than about a homeless sleeping in the street.

[Graeme]

1 hour ago, Padme said:

Stereotyping is wrong. But unfortunatelly people like Trump and his supporters are reinforcing the believe that heterosexual white males are evil.

This isn't a personal attack on you, but saying stuff like that is unhelpful and only serves to alienate people who would probably otherwise be happy to take a stand against Trump. Nobody is evil because of the colour of their skin or who they're attracted to, that's the whole point. Not straight, white men, nor gay black women (and I'm not just saying this as a straight, white man because I'm worried I'll be perceived as evil)... The difference is that straight white men have suffered far less legal and structural discrimination in terms of their rights to vote, to occupy public spaces, to own homes, to marry who they want to, being free from slavery (etc. etc.) and aren't still struggling to overcome the legacy centuries of institutionalised inequality.

This notion put forward by (particularly) the alt-right that any effort to redress the systemic imbalance that has (in broad general terms) benefited straight white males to a greater extent than anyone else is just as bad as the discrimination that those other people faced in the first place is pretty ridiculous.

In Hollywood movies (the example chosen abover) on average 28% of the speaking roles (not even leading roles) are women, despite the fact they make up 50.8% of the population in the country where those films are produced... Likewise, between 2007-2014, white people played 73% of speaking roles (stats from here https://www.thoughtco.com/diversity-in-hollywood-3026690 ). 

Does anyone seriously think that offering fewer roles to white males is really the biggest tragedy here?

[Lio]

15 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

I was particularly focusing in on the manner of possessing a different view, which, from that clip, entails mob mentality, contorted hateful expressions and ridicule.

Les extrêmes se touchent.

Having recently visited the Kazerne Dossin Memorial, Museum & Documentation Centre on Holocaust and Human Rights, I have to agree with you. At the start of the visit, a link is made between a kid being bullied because he's fat and the whole nazi nightmare. The moment you start bullying anyone, or a group turns against someone outside of that group, you have a breeding ground for hate, discrimination and the awful things we've seen during the 30s and 40s. Sure, it's usually on a much smaller scale, but it's the same mechanism, and it's dangerous. Same thing you see now between Europeans and refugees, but also between right wing and left wing, and I imagine between brexiteers and remainers (or whatever they are called). It really annoys me when I hear the left talk about tolerance, but at the same time dismissing (extreme) right wing voters as being stupid, ignorant and racist. All it does is polarize more and there won't be any solution if you're just ridiculing or insulting anyone who thinks differently. It would be much better to try and understand where the other one is coming from.

[action]

being white yourself doesn't mean you can't discriminate against whites. hitler had some jewish roots, and we all know what he did to them

all that matters, the only thing, is your actions. you discriminate against white males? then you "are" racist and sexist. there are no "if's" and "but's" about it