British Politics

[DieselDaisy]

Tell it how it is Julia haha. 

 

[SoulMonster]

7 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

It is you who are using quantifiable comparatives and participles here - I have highlighted them. I have never claimed anything like this! Again, straw man, from the King of Straw Men, Soul Monster.

Finland, Malta, Luxembourg, Portugal and Lithuania share Civic Law (Cyprus has Common Law). 4/6 of them share land borders which means they have been impacted by invasion and interpolation - something Britain has avoided since 1066. Indeed Finland was invaded by the Soviets in 1939, and the Lithuanians were part of the Russian and Soviet Empires. Portugal and Spain were incorporated dynastically 1580 and 1640, and Portugal was further invaded by France in 1808. 

The USA is a Federal Constitution. Sorry but this analogy is utterly useless. 

 

You seem to struggle with differentiating between my arguments and my conclusions.

Example of an argument: We have precedence of unions where members states have different legal systems yet are able to function, like Cyprus in the EU, hence your argument that this isn't possible falls on its face.

Example of a conclusion: The fact that you weren't aware of Cyprus, or seem really ignorant about other countries in the EU and prefer to talk in caricatures as out of 1930s newspapers, yet still cling to your argument that for some reason this isn't possible with Britain, supports the conclusion that you are a country yokel with little experience of the world around you except for what you read in history books.

And again you not only cherry-pick some historical events but also keep on babbling about history as if that means that the UK today isn't compatible with continental Europe. I have already a few times pointed out why it doesn't matter what has happened before, only how Britain is today. So your constant retreat back to irrelevant historical details suggests that is all you can bring to this discussion. Ignorance and irrelevant details.

And lastly, the fact that USA is a federal constitution with federal laws doesn't take away from the fact that each state also have their own state laws. 

[DieselDaisy]

It has often been easy to dismiss De Gaulle as a petty-Napoleon, a French nationalist and furious Anglophobe, but he was more knowledgeable than most about the United Kingdom's role in the world vis-à-vis the continent,

Quote

''England in effect is insular, she is maritime, she is linked through her exchanges, her markets, her supply lines to the most diverse and often the most distant countries; she pursues essentially industrial and commercial activities, and only slight agricultural ones. She has in all her doings very marked and very original habits and traditions. In short, the nature, the structure, the very situation (conjuncture) that are England’s differ profoundly from those of the continentals''.

The whole speech is worth studying in detail,

https://www.files.ethz.ch/isn/125401/1168_DeGaulleVeto.pdf

[DieselDaisy]

Just now, SoulMonster said:

You seem to struggle with differentiating between my arguments and my conclusions.

Example of an argument: We have precedence of unions where members states have different legal systems yet are able to function, like Cyprus in the EU, hence your argument that this isn't possible falls on its face.

Example of a conclusion: The fact that you weren't aware of Cyprus, or seem really ignorant about other countries in the EU and prefer to talk in caricatures as out of 1930s newspapers, yet still cling to your argument that for some reason this isn't possible with Britain, supports the conclusion that you are a country yokel with little experience of the world around you except for what you read in history books.

And again you not only cherry-pick some historical events but also keep on babbling about history as if that means that the UK today isn't compatible with continental Europe. I have already a few times pointed out why it doesn't matter what has happened before, only how Britain is today. So your constant retreat back to irrelevant historical details suggests that is all you can bring to this discussion. Ignorance and irrelevant details.

And lastly, the fact that USA is a federal constitution with federal laws doesn't take away from the fact that each state also have their own state laws. 

You cannot compare a federal union with a supranational and/or intergovernmentral union, or even a union with devolved powers such as the United Kingdom. The analogy is utterly hopeless. 

The rest of your post is the usual straw men, ad hominem attacks and conceited arrogance that we've come to expect from you.

[AtariLegend]

So it looks like Boris has finally made it, baring him withdrawing over the weekend.

While Boris is a signficantly lesser evil than Gove, this is still going to end disastrously. The gammons have finally won.

 

[Dazey]

8 minutes ago, AtariLegend said:

So it looks like Boris has finally made it, baring him withdrawing over the weekend.

While Boris is a signficantly lesser evil than Gove, this is still going to end disastrously. The gammons have finally won.

 

The blame for this lies squarely with the Labour members that elected Corbyn in 2015 and to a lesser extent Ed Milliband who changed the rules to allow that to happen. Until that is addressed we’re stuck with Tory rule for good. 

[AtariLegend]

12 minutes ago, Dazey said:

The blame for this lies squarely with the Labour members that elected Corbyn in 2015 and to a lesser extent Ed Milliband who changed the rules to allow that to happen. Until that is addressed we’re stuck with Tory rule for good. 

Labour haven't been power and in 2017 they got more votes than any party since Blair in 97 other than May.

Corbyn might have been useless, but he still got more people to vote for him in that election despite the fact that the Torries monoplized the leave vote basically.

Were're stuck with the Torries, because people keep voting for the Torries.

Edited June 20, 2019 by AtariLegend

[Dazey]

7 minutes ago, AtariLegend said:

Labour haven't been power and in 2017 they got more votes than any party since Blair in 97 other than May.

Corbyn might have been useless, but he still got more people to vote for him in that election despite the fact that the Torries monoplized the leave vote basically.

Were're stuck with the Torries, because people keep voting for the Torries.

I think somebody like David Milliband could have won that election. Corbyn is unelectable and as much as it pains me to say it I’d prefer Boris. 

[AtariLegend]

Just now, Dazey said:

I think somebody like David Milliband could have won that election. Corbyn is unelectable and as much as it pains me to say it I’d prefer Boris. 

Miilliband wouldn't have rallied the young and the left. He's the kind of MP that campaigns for refugees that he probably voted to bomb. Sure, maybe less austerity and complaining about it wouldn't exactly have been a huge selling point.

The tabloids would have found a way. You don't remember his father being portrayed as a traitor to Britian?

 

[Dazey]

2 minutes ago, AtariLegend said:

Miilliband wouldn't have rallied the young and the left. He's the kind of MP that campaigns for refugees that he probably voted to bomb. Sure, maybe less austerity and complaining about it wouldn't exactly have been a huge selling point.

The tabloids would have found a way. You don't remember his father being portrayed as a traitor to Britian?

 

The left would have supported him mostly but it’s not the left that swing elections. The middle ground is who Labour needs to appeal to and did very successfully under Blair. All this hard left bullshit is doing is alienating centrist voters who Labour desperately need to appeal to if they’re ever going to win another election. 

[AtariLegend]

2 minutes ago, Dazey said:

The left would have supported him mostly but it’s not the left that swing elections. The middle ground is who Labour needs to appeal to and did very successfully under Blair. All this hard left bullshit is doing is alienating centrist voters who Labour desperately need to appeal to if they’re ever going to win another election. 

Like I said, that happened in 2017. However the Torries managed to make it an election on Brexit and with first past the post, that's what we got.

Alot of those supposedly hard left policies appealed to voters. The centre ground ie Blair is what ave us Iraq. The other centre, the Lib Dems gave us the Torries and austerity.

According the media, Cameroon is the centre ground too.

[Padme]

17 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

It has often been easy to dismiss De Gaulle as a petty-Napoleon, a French nationalist and furious Anglophobe, but he was more knowledgeable than most about the United Kingdom's role in the world vis-à-vis the continent,

The whole speech is worth studying in detail,

https://www.files.ethz.ch/isn/125401/1168_DeGaulleVeto.pdf

That was like 50 or 60 years ago. Today we have Britons living in Spain, Italy, France, Germany, etc. And we have Spaniards, Germans, French, Italians, etc living in the UK. There is no legal system problems. There aren't huge cultural, political and historical differences between the UK and Continental Europe. I don't know why you think the UK is a country on planet Earth and Continental Europe is another planet in a galaxy far, far away where only little green creatures are living.

[DieselDaisy]

40 minutes ago, Padme said:

That was like 50 or 60 years ago. Today we have Britons living in Spain, Italy, France, Germany, etc. And we have Spaniards, Germans, French, Italians, etc living in the UK. There is no legal system problems. 

As there were 50-60 years ago!! There has always been Britons living on the continent whilst continental Europeans resided in Britain, Hanseatic traders, 17th century French Huguenots and other religious exiles, ancien régime exiles, 19th-20th Italian economic exiles, refugees from Nazi persecution, etc etc. 

Much of this precedes the beginnings of the EEC by centuries and therefore is completely academic. 

40 minutes ago, Padme said:

There aren't huge cultural, political and historical differences between the UK and Continental Europe. I don't know why you think the UK is a country on planet Earth and Continental Europe is another planet in a galaxy far, far away where only little green creatures are living.

I disagree with this entirely. 

Edited June 21, 2019 by DieselDaisy

[Padme]

23 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

As there were 50-60 years ago!! There has always been Britons living on the continent whilst continental Europeans resided in Britain, Hanseatic traders, 17th century French Huguenots and other religious exiles, ancien régime exiles, 19th-20th Italian economic exiles, refugees from Nazi persecution, etc etc. 

Much of this precedes the beginnings of the EEC by centuries and therefore is completely academic. 

I disagree with this entirely. 

Don't you see you're contradicting yourself?

There aren't huge differences. Otherwise a Briton wouldn't be able to live in France. And a French wouldn't be able to live in the UK.

 

[DieselDaisy]

1 hour ago, Padme said:

Don't you see you're contradicting yourself?

There aren't huge differences. Otherwise a Briton wouldn't be able to live in France. And a French wouldn't be able to live in the UK.

 

I have no idea what argument you are trying to make here. It would only (sort of) make sense if I had based my opposition to the EU on migration/right of residency which I have never done. Straw Man then.

Heck, post-Brexit I think we should open our doors to the Greeks and Italians fleeing the Eurozone's horrifying austerity. 

Edited June 21, 2019 by DieselDaisy

[DieselDaisy]

Just to clarify my main opposition to the EU, and I will try not to see this through a British lens, is based on,

- Sovereignty. EU legislation impedes on nation-state sovereignty. Nation-state sovereignty has often been dearly won through centuries of civil war and revolution, and has often developed into a politico-culture safeguarding certain freedoms and liberties for citizens/subjects of said nation-state. To allow a multitude of European legislation to supersede national legislation is ultimately detrimental to the wealth of the nation-state.     

- Economics.  The EU imposes Neo-liberal austerity on already economically deprived countries such as Greece and Italy, and favours economically rich areas of the EU such as London and the Rhineland (Benelux/Franco-German border) region, at the expense of regions with mass unemployment, low wages and slight institutional investment.

- Trade. I believe sovereign countries should be able to trade bilaterally, something that is not possible when belonging to the Customs Union.

- Accountability. The EU is hopelessly corrupt and bureaucratic.

- Democracy. There is a democratic deficit within the EU. The European Parliament is unable to initiate legislation reducing it to a vetoing lobby. Power is ultimately excised by an unelected Commission of Eurocrats. Further, the ''Presidencies'' - there are seven! - are all decided upon in endless and undignified intergovernmental jockeying for position and face-saving - indeed we are seeing it now with Macron's opposition to the Merkel supported Spitzenkandidat: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jun/19/the-franco-german-tussle-at-the-heart-of-who-will-lead-the-eu-commission

Edited June 21, 2019 by DieselDaisy

[Dazey]

 

[Padme]

50 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

I have no idea what argument you are trying to make here. It would only (sort of) make sense if I had based my opposition to the EU on migration/right of residency which I have never done. Straw Man then.

Heck, post-Brexit I think we should open our doors to the Greeks and Italians fleeing the Eurozone's horrifying austerity. 

You claim there is nothing in common between Continental Europe and the UK when it comes history, legal system and culture. You are also saying you would welcome Italians and Greeks. And you don't see the contradiction in what you are saying?

[DieselDaisy]

11 minutes ago, Padme said:

You claim there is nothing in common between Continental Europe and the UK when it comes history, legal system and culture. You are also saying you would welcome Italians and Greeks. And you don't see the contradiction in what you are saying?

I have never based my arguments against the EU around migration though, so...

 

[SoulMonster]

1 hour ago, DieselDaisy said:

Heck, post-Brexit I think we should open our doors to the Greeks and Italians fleeing the Eurozone's horrifying austerity. 

Of course you do, you adore the Greeks and the Romans. After all they are the main characters in your history books. Without them and their contributions the modern world would be vey different. You even said once that you'd prefer to live in the Roman Empire than in modern day England - such is your blind love for them and your disgust for the modern world. And weren't you rather disillusioned after having done a trip to Greece recently and discovered it wasn't at all how you hoped? But would you open your borders to fleeing Syrians or Iraqis? Or, say, the Romanians? Or, in an alternative world, the Germans or the French?

[DieselDaisy]

18 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Of course you do, you adore the Greeks and the Romans. After all they are the main characters in your history books. Without them and their contributions the modern world would be vey different. You even said once that you'd prefer to live in the Roman Empire than in modern day England - such is your blind love for them and your disgust for the modern world. And weren't you rather disillusioned after having done a trip to Greece recently and discovered it wasn't at all how you hoped? But would you open your borders to fleeing Syrians or Iraqis? Or, say, the Romanians? Or, in an alternative world, the Germans or the French?

Stop supplying me with misquotations.

I have never discussed emigration when discussing my opposition to the EU; you can look back through all the conversations I've had with you and others on the subject of the European Union and I do not believe I have mentioned emigration once. Thus it should be apparent it is a low priority on my list of objections. I believe there was a post awhile back in which I said that the single market/EEA was one of the least objectionable aspects of the European Union, and it is within the single market where the ''four freedoms'' are enshrined.

So again, a straw man - not even a straw man in fact but a deliberate misrepresentation and misquoting of (my) views.

Edited June 21, 2019 by DieselDaisy

[DieselDaisy]

On 5/30/2019 at 4:48 PM, DieselDaisy said:

Generally I have less problems with the ESM/EEA than I do with the EUCU and the CAP/CFP.

http://www.mygnrforum.com/topic/222341-european-parliment-election-results-2019/?page=11

It is within the ESM/EEA where the ''four freedoms'' are location.

Migration has never been especially important for me when summarising the weaknesses of the EU. 

[SoulMonster]

21 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Stop supplying me with misquotations.

I have never discussed emigration when discussing my opposition to the EU; you can look back through all the conversations I've had with you and others on the subject of the European Union and I do not believe I have mentioned emigration once. Thus it should be apparent it is a low priority on my list of objections. I believe there was a post awhile back in which I said that the single market/EEA was one of the least objectionable aspects of the European Union, and it is within the single market where the ''four freedoms'' are enshrined.

So again, a straw man - not even a straw man in fact but a deliberate misrepresentation and misquoting of (my) views.

I didn't quote you and I have never said you have admitted that immigration is part of your fear of the EU (although I do think I remember a few posts from you where you complained about the EU forcing immigrations on you).

[DieselDaisy]

It just shows that I don't really have a political allegiances as I am being pelted with abuse on twitter, including by people with this logo in their twitter profile,

For saying this was incredibly ''heavy-handed'',

''Remember the Manchester bomber''; ''she could have had acid'' etc etc. 

Edited June 21, 2019 by DieselDaisy

[Padme]

1 hour ago, DieselDaisy said:

I have never based my arguments against the EU around migration though, so...

 

The issue is not immigration. The issue is your claim that the UK has nothing in common with Continental Europe. So by your logic the Italians and Greeks are better off going to France or Germany. Becuase they have a common legal system, history and culture with them and not with the UK