British Politics

[SoulMonster]

12 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

''Solidarity, cooperation, togetherness''.

You are utterly blind. Greece is in reality suffering from rampant (youth) unemployment and debt. If you were to visit Greece and speak to the Greek people you would see that the EU is deeply unpopular. 

More thinking errors. The fact that Greece is having economic problems doesn't prove that the EU on average is good for European countries, or that Greece wouldn't have been in deeper shit. This is the same thinking error from before. Do you not get it? Or don't you have a working argument so you revert to one that is flawed hoping that people won't care?

And whether EU is popular or not is also a thinking error. That is irrelevant to whether they would be worse off without.

[SoulMonster]

4 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

My gawd!! They are probably more Eurosceptic than Britain haha

The level of euroscepticism is entirely irrelevant. Or do you actually believe that whatever the most people think, must be correct? That since so many Greeks, in these tough times, thinks the EU has been bad for them, means it has? That reality is somehow consensus-based? That everything is relative, including what is correct or wrong?

[Padme]

4 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

y gawd!! They are probably more Eurosceptic than Britain haha! Even the EU itself acknowledges that Greece is one of the most Eurosceptic of countries. You are utterly blinkered. I don't usually quote wikipedia but the sources are cited,

I don't see anyone demanding a referendum. Chances are there are more eurosceptics in France than in Greece

[SoulMonster]

6 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

My gawd!! They are probably more Eurosceptic than Britain haha

The level of euroscepticism is entirely irrelevant. Or do you actually believe that whatever the most people think, must be correct? That since so many Greeks, in these tough times, thinks the EU has been bad for them, means it has? That reality is somehow consensus-based? That everything is relative, including what is correct or wrong?

[DieselDaisy]

Even the EU itself acknowledges 37% of Greeks as seeing no benefit in their EU membership in the following,

That is the EU themselves, it their own ''Eurobarometer'' (as these things are called).

1 minute ago, SoulMonster said:

The level of euroscepticism is entirely irrelevant. Or do you actually believe that whatever the most people think, must be correct? That since so many Greeks, in these tough times, thinks the EU has been bad for them, means it has? That reality is somehow consensus-based? That everything is relative, including what is correct or wrong?

I wasn't replying to you, but to Padme who refutes the level of Euroscepticism in Greece. 

Edited August 29, 2019 by DieselDaisy

[SoulMonster]

Just now, DieselDaisy said:

Even the EU itself acknowledges 37% of Greeks as seeing no benefit in their EU membership in the following.

It is endearing how you hammer on about the fact that eurosceptism is high in Greece at the moment. I am happy you found something you are not wrong about. But of course, it is entirely irrelevant to what is being discussed 

2 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

I wasn't replying to you, but to Padme who refutes the level of Euroscepticism in Greece. 

Uhm, I know you weren't, but you are still arguing that this high level of eurosceptimism must somehow mean that the EU has been bad for Greece or that the EU is bad in general and I can't help myself to point out the stupidity of that when I read it.

[EvanG]

22 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Quite sizable Euroscepticism in those countries, even in government (Orban in Hungary, Duda in Poland). I notice that the Czechs are doing the ''inflationary dodge'' which keeps them out of the Eurozone also. 

I bet they are not complaining about those funds, though.

[DieselDaisy]

1 minute ago, SoulMonster said:

It is endearing how you hammer on about the fact that eurosceptism is high in Greece at the moment. I am happy you found something you are not wrong about. But of course, it is entirely irrelevant to what is being discussed 

Answering your point, surely the level of Euroscepticism in a given country reflects how successful EU policies have been there, or are you truly that dismissive of the opinion of the masses? Or you could say, if you are correct about the EU being glorious and perfect, then perhaps the EU has an ''image problem'' in places like Greece and Italy? Something is certainly amiss either way!

3 minutes ago, EvanG said:

I bet they are not complaining about those funds, though.

I wouldn't care to speculate why they're Eurosceptic although I know migration is a big issue in Hungary. 

[SoulMonster]

Just now, DieselDaisy said:

Answering your point, surely the level of Euroscepticism in a given country reflects how successful EU policies have been there

Only to an extent  Not sufficiently to use it to gauge the success of the EU. At the very least you would have to look at the opinion of people at every year throughout their time in the EU, and then take av average. Not focus on a time when they are likely to have their opinions strongly affected by just having to go through austerity measures. And then you would have to account for the effect of people tending to forget the good when in the midst of severe austerity and chaos. So yeah, a thinking error on your part to argue that the EU has been bad for Greece by focusing on the snapshot opinion of Greeks in 2019. 

[Dazey]

16 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Even the EU itself acknowledges 37% of Greeks as seeing no benefit in their EU membership in the following,

That is the EU themselves, it their own ''Eurobarometer'' (as these things are called).

I wasn't replying to you, but to Padme who refutes the level of Euroscepticism in Greece. 

Well it shows that every country other than Italy has a majority of the populace who think that the EU is of benefit to them. Not sure how this helps your argument? 

[Padme]

6 minutes ago, EvanG said:

I bet they are not complaining about those funds, though.

The Czechs have their own currency. For turists spending Euros there it's cheap. Hungary I don't know. They did have a referendum but not enough people bother to participate.

[DieselDaisy]

42 minutes ago, Padme said:

The Czechs have their own currency. For turists spending Euros there it's cheap. Hungary I don't know. They did have a referendum but not enough people bother to participate.

The Czechs rig their budget to keep out of the Eurozone.

42 minutes ago, Dazey said:

Well it shows that every country other than Italy has a majority of the populace who think that the EU is of benefit to them. Not sure how this helps your argument? 

That is the EU's own poll. For alternative surveys, see above.

 

 

Edited August 29, 2019 by DieselDaisy

[DieselDaisy]

43 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

at every year throughout their time in the EU

They basically do. The EU's own version is called the Eurobarometer.

The problem with the rest of your argument is that the UK has constantly been one of, if not the most, Eurosceptic country since we joined in 1973. The referendum result was not a sudden knee jerk reaction to austerity measures (and anyhow, we remain outside the Eurozone).

[DieselDaisy]

I have provided four survey results. Depending on which one you read, there are either 71% of Greek Eurosceptics, 75%, 52% or (EU's own) 37%. In a nutshell: there are a lot of Eurosceptics in Greece.

- Yes, I am aware the question has been phrased differently in all four.

[SoulMonster]

40 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

The problem with the rest of your argument is that the UK has constantly been one of, if not the most, Eurosceptic country since we joined in 1973. The referendum result was not a sudden knee jerk reaction to austerity measures (and anyhow, we remain outside the Eurozone).

That is only a problem if you think I have made an argument about the UK and EU (lately). 

It is amazing how you deliberately misunderstand arguments. Almost as amazing as your flip-flopping from argument to argument, hoping something will stick, elegantly refusing to acknowledge how they get shot down again and again. Just on a few pages you have argued that Germany can't spend money on themselves while Greek is struggling thus failing to understand the most fundamental aspects of the EU, argued that since the majority of Greeks are opposed to the EU it must mean the EU is bad (without commenting on the fact that with such a rationale it must mean they the EU is great since in almost every other country the majority is in favor), three times argued that if a country now thinks the EU is bad it must mean it is bad. Just a lithani of flailing attempts at arguing and then just quickly move on when demonstrated to be wrong. And when something sticks, like your trivial and irrelevant point that Greeks aren't enthusiastic at the moment about the EU, then you gleefully jabber on about this as if it somehow reverses pages of failure. Just amazing. 

[Padme]

It seems Greece is more concerned about lower taxes and Macedonia than about leaving the EU

https://www.euronews.com/2019/07/03/greek-elections-what-you-need-to-know

Where are those millions of Eurosceptics? It seems Greece want their traditional establishment conservative party in power

[Dazey]

[DieselDaisy]

The hypocrisy of our EUphile elites knows no bounds,

 

 

 

[Dazey]

4 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

The hypocrisy of our EUphile elites knows no bounds,

 

 

 

Did you prorogue mygnr for the last couple of days?  

[DieselDaisy]

9 minutes ago, Dazey said:

Did you prorogue mygnr for the last couple of days?  

Of course. Today is the State Opening. Queen and Black Rod anyone?

[DieselDaisy]

During John Major's meetings, with his cabinet, with foreign ambassadors, etc., notes would be passed to the Prime Minister from secretaries which he'd read before handing back without saying a word? You can imagine what the other ministers were thinking: ''new crisis in Gulf?'', ''pound slumps to new low?''.

Latest cricket scores! ''Hussain, c.Taylor b Warne for 30, England 253/5'' or something similar!

He basically had a continuous relay service, one of his secretaries feeding latest test scores from Lord's or The Oval. 

PS

Pity he loves the EU as I rather like the guy for the above. Working class Tory Prime Minister who Spitting Image depicted as ''grey'', eating peas with Norma, yet all the time he was rogering Edwina Currie - they got that wrong.

[Dazey]

1 hour ago, DieselDaisy said:

Of course. Today is the State Opening. Queen and Black Rod anyone?

Is Black Rod a parliamentary convention or Stephen Milligan’s missing assailant?  

[Len Cnut]

1 hour ago, DieselDaisy said:

Queen and Black Rod

Well, thats one way to divert the electorates attention.  Bit drastic though, I must say.

[Dazey]

 

[DieselDaisy]