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The London millionaire luvvies, the vacuous celebrities and Momentum Twitterati, hideous people like Hugh Grant, Steve Coogen, Irving Walsh and Gary Lineker, have to realise that telling people they're ''ignorant'', ''misinformed'', ''racist'' or worse (''gammon'') simply because they have a different opinion on the European Union to them, is not conducive to democratic debate, and I suspect deeply damaged their own cause in that Brexiteers become more entrenched having seen their opinions and personalities so belittled on social media and liberal platforms such as the BBC and Guardian. I bet a good percentage of Boris's vote consisted of people such as this. 

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25 minutes ago, Dazey said:

Boris' victory speech after winning his seat this morning. The guy behind him is called Lord Buckethead! :lol: 

 

Count Binface and Yace Interplanetary Time Lord Yogenstein as well. :lol:

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9 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

The London millionaire luvvies, the vacuous celebrities and Momentum Twitterati, hideous people like Hugh Grant, Steve Coogen, Irving Walsh and Gary Lineker, have to realise that telling people they're ''ignorant'', ''misinformed'', ''racist'' or worse (''gammon'') simply because they have a different opinion on the European Union to them, is not conducive to democratic debate, and I suspect deeply damaged their own cause in that Brexiteers become more entrenched having seen their opinions and personalities so belittled on social media and liberal platforms such as the BBC and Guardian. I bet a good percentage of Boris's vote consisted of people such as this. 

Redcar went blue! Fucking Redcar? It’s never been a Tory seat in its history. :lol: 

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10 minutes ago, Dazey said:

Redcar went blue! Fucking Redcar? It’s never been a Tory seat in its history. :lol: 

These Toffs will build Waitroses and Selfridges for us and lead us into the promised land.

 

PS

And I for one, welcome our new insect overlords. I'd like to remind them that as a trusted TV personality I could be helpful in rounding up others to toil in their underground sugar caves!

_a3m8xyxEZ8ZmgiTnilEBszbJgGRyJjyiHcVV4Y5

Edited by DieselDaisy

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37 minutes ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

The problem with the green new deal is it's lack of specificity. The plan itself doesn't propose any specific technologies or sources of energy.

Your point was that ecologically minded people allegedly havent taken into account bread and butter issues that will mobilize voters. Im saying that is wrong. The Green New Deal and any other robust model to combat the climate crisis is rooted in class consciences to a degree not often seen in your nations history. 

See, in the climate crisis economists and climate scientists have unmasked that capitalism is the crisis. Capitalism attacks the planet and it attacks the working class (which will include the poor for my purposes). Economists and climate scientists expose the material contradictions of capitalism - It promises prosperity, but is reliant on poverty. It promises a good life, while destroying the environmental means to a good life. So the solution is to address the problem as it exists, as a whole. Even given the clearly defined material reality, we still need to be intentional in our class conscience. Because we have collectively internalized the promises of capitalism and its dire hierarchy. But ending poverty is philosophically and materially inseparable from ending ecocide.

 

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42 minutes ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

And right on cue. Those people are just going to double down on voting for people like Johnson.

Your argument is that people vote for morons out of spite?

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38 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

I'm not disputing much of this, but there is little doubt that the level of Boris's victory combined with the nature of the Tory manifesto, centered around one campaign slogan to ''get Brexit done'', has given support to arguments against this swing from leave to remain which you seem to feel exists, not to mention the fact that the Liberal Democrats utterly bombed. There is a method of measuring the ''Brexit factor'' actually, by correlating the polling with the results of the 2016 referendum. 

_110132032_optimised-sharechange.euref.c

There will be multiple analyses of this date no doubt over the next few days. 

Sure, but there will always be a substantial uncertainty is such analyses. I will await a new poll before concluding in any direction.

Hopefully, the majority has shifted towards Leave again because then Brexit will be properly anchored with the majority of the population. Worst case scenario is really a Brexit when current polls indicate that it is against the wish of the majority of the people. That would be unfortunate. And such a thing would be unfortunate regardless of what the issue is, Brexit or any other.

 

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1 minute ago, soon said:

Your point was that ecologically minded people allegedly havent taken into account bread and butter issues that will mobilize voters. Im saying that is wrong. The Green New Deal and any other robust model to combat the climate crisis is rooted in class consciences to a degree not often seen in your nations history. 

See, in the climate crisis economists and climate scientists have unmasked that capitalism is the crisis. Capitalism attacks the planet and it attacks the working class (which will include the poor for my purposes). Economists and climate scientists expose the material contradictions of capitalism - It promises prosperity, but is reliant on poverty. It promises a good life, while destroying the environmental means to a good life. So the solution is to address the problem as it exists, as a whole. Even given the clearly defined material reality, we still need to be intentional in our class conscience. Because we have collectively internalized the promises of capitalism and its dire hierarchy. But ending poverty is philosophically and materially inseparable from ending ecocide.

 

My critique is they're not being specific enough. If the green new deal is what you want to turn people's heads, put some specifics in there that people can sink their teeth into.

You're talking to someone who, if we're going to have capitalism, wants a highly regulated form of it (and that would me get called a socialist in this country). So you can skip the capitalism is shit arguments because I largely already agree lol.

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Nobody gives a shit about the environment when you're eating from a food bank or being knifed in the back. These, environmentalism, are middle class causes. 

Edited by DieselDaisy
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1 minute ago, DieselDaisy said:

Nobody gives a shit about the environment when you're eating from a food bank or being knifed in the back. These are middle class causes. 

Utter bollocks. 

Also, what on earth is wrong with class solidarity?? :lol:

Edited by soon

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7 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Your argument is that people vote for morons out of spite?

They absolutely do. If your media does nothing but insult certain classes of people as ignorant rubes, they're going to vote for the guy throwing bombs at said media. If you don't understand the psychology of this you'd be best steering clear of political issues and stick to academia.

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1 minute ago, DieselDaisy said:

Where I live nobody gives a shit about any of this stuff. 

Start handing ou life rafts, maybe that'll drive the point home? haha

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Just now, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

They absolutely do. If your media does nothing but insult certain classes of people as ignorant rubes, they're going to vote for the guy throwing bombs at said media. If you don't understand the psychology of this you'd be best steering clear of political issues and stick to academia.

Of course people might entrench themselves in their stupid opinions if people point out that they are stupid -- because after all, that's what you would expect stupid people to do --  but I don't think it is such a pronounced mechanism as you might think and I also don't think the media typically does that to people. It is a fine balancing act to do, though, in the USA people complain that all certain media do is make fun of Trump, but on the other hand he does a lot of ridiculous things. 

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3 minutes ago, soon said:

Start handing ou life rafts, maybe that'll drive the point home? haha

Why would anyone care about the environment if you are eating out of a food bank and/or living on the streets, or your housing estate is full of crime and drugs? Environmental issues are for people living in some degree of comfort and security.

Edited by DieselDaisy

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7 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Of course people might entrench themselves in their stupid opinions if people point out that they are stupid -- because after all, that's what you would expect stupid people to do --  but I don't think it is such a pronounced mechanism as you might think and I also don't think the media typically does that to people. It is a fine balancing act to do, though, in the USA people complain that all certain media do is make fun of Trump, but on the other hand he does a lot of ridiculous things. 

You'd make a great British remainer. Patronising and smug.

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11 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Why would anyone care about the environment if you are eating out of a food bank and/or living on the streets, or your housing estate is full of crime and drugs? Environmental issues are for people living in some degree of comfort and security.

Its sad if thats how you and others present and disseminate the situation and facts with those in destitution (not that we need you to spoon feed us info). I doubt its actually the reality because I am poor and have experienced homelessness and the entire time I was the person you speak to now. :) 

More than likely you are repeating a talking point that comes from people of stability, comfort and means, who are speaking on behalf of the poor. Its a fairly standard conservative talking point, so forgive me if me and everyone I know is evidence to the contrary. The history of where Marxist analysis take root also undermines your statement - its the working class. And the only useful reading on the climate crisis is rooted in critiques of capitalism.

Many employed workers have to use food banks. Please dont add insult to injury and suggest that they are uninformed and unconcerned. We are mobilized, and if Im honest, more informed then the average prol. :headbang:

Edited by soon

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4 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Why would anyone care about the environment if you are eating out of a food bank and/or living on the streets, or your housing estate is full of crime and drugs? Environmental issues are for people living in some degree of comfort and security.

There is definitely a point to be made that people who have more pressing issues to sort out have little time and resources to handle issues that are more distant, but an argument can also be made that one cannot only care about the more transient immediate and personal issues if one face something as apocalyptic as environmental collapse. Intelligent people will realize that there is little point in fighting the immediate issues if one then succumbs to the more frightful event later on. So intelligent and somewhat resourceful people would then try to do something about both. The problem is of course that environmental issues are not very likely to be the bane for anyone of us, but for future generations yet to fix that we might have to act now, and if there is one thing we humans are really bad at it is doing something for future generations if it means we have to sacrifice anything ourselves.

2 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

You'd make a great British remainer. Patronising and smug.

I thought it was a pretty indifferent description of the difference between stupid people and intelligent people. I think stupidity can be defined as the inability to reconsider one's opinion and rather entrench oneself when opposed, whereas intelligent people will tend to consider the argument hidden beneath an insult to see if there is any validity to it. It really has nothing to do with Brexit but is a general principle.

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18 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Of course people might entrench themselves in their stupid opinions if people point out that they are stupid -- because after all, that's what you would expect stupid people to do --  but I don't think it is such a pronounced mechanism as you might think and I also don't think the media typically does that to people. It is a fine balancing act to do, though, in the USA people complain that all certain media do is make fun of Trump, but on the other hand he does a lot of ridiculous things. 

Let's go beyond Trump for a minute because history didn't start in June of 2015. The trope of the coastal elite calling the flyover country people rubes and unsophisticated idiots has been going on in media and movies and on tv for decades. Then you get idiots like Rush Limbaugh stepping in to speak for the flyover people, but he's actually a fraud. He'll use rhetoric people in flyover country like, but then support the policies of the neoliberal plutocrats who own the media that started the whole cycle in the first place!

I'm just out here waiting for a third position that throws bombs at the media when necessary and actually advocates economic policies that would help middle and lower class people.

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10 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

There is definitely a point to be made that people who have more pressing issues to sort out have little time and resources to handle issues that are more distant, but an argument can also be made that one cannot only care about the more transient immediate and personal issues if one face something as apocalyptic as environmental collapse. Intelligent people will realize that there is little point in fighting the immediate issues if one then succumbs to the more frightful event later on. So intelligent and somewhat resourceful people would then try to do something about both. The problem is of course that environmental issues are not very likely to be the bane for anyone of us, but for future generations yet to fix that we might have to act now, and if there is one thing we humans are really bad at it is doing something for future generations if it means we have to sacrifice anything ourselves.

I thought it was a pretty indifferent description of the difference between stupid people and intelligent people. I think stupidity can be defined as the inability to reconsider one's opinion and rather entrench oneself when opposed, whereas intelligent people will tend to consider the argument hidden beneath an insult to see if there is any validity to it. It really has nothing to do with Brexit but is a general principle.

Off topic but I never realised how you Scandinavians had eugenics programs up and running before the Third Reich. The Swedes were sterilizing people until 1975. 

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1 hour ago, SoulMonster said:

Your argument is that people vote for morons out of spite?

Yes

 

1 hour ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

They absolutely do. If your media does nothing but insult certain classes of people as ignorant rubes, they're going to vote for the guy throwing bombs at said media. If you don't understand the psychology of this you'd be best steering clear of political issues and stick to academia.

I predict that the Democrats in this country are going to look at what's happening the UK and are going to be scared of 2020. Brexit and Trump happend at the exact same time. I predict that there will be a red wave(GOP) in 2020

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2 minutes ago, Gibsonfender2323 said:

Yes

 

I predict that the Democrats in this country are going to look at what's happening the UK and are going to be scared of 2020. Brexit and Trump happend at the exact same time. I predict that there will be a red wave(GOP) in 2020

While Trump very well may win. A red wave isn't really possible anymore due to the rapid demographic changes that have happened in recent decades. 

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