British Politics

[SoulMonster]

Just now, Len Cnut said:

I meant an opposite member of the contradictory gender young man.  Adams rib.  The other side.  One of them.  a woMAN, a feMALE.

Serious question, what has "bird" linguistically got to do with the opposite? Or did I misunderstand you? 

[Len Cnut]

12 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Serious question, what has "bird" linguistically got to do with the opposite? Or did I misunderstand you? 

If I'm understanding the question correctly you're asking why ladies are called birds?  Y'know what, I ain't got a fuckin' clue, never thought about it.  Same reason yanks call em chicks, fuck knows.  Thinking off the top of my admittedly very dim head perhaps that like...y'know, people think of birds/chicks as sort of pretty and not very strong?  Perhaps thats it?  Fuck knows man, I don't make the rules, I just play along. 

As early as 1300, bird was used for ‘girl’, but this was probably owing to confusion with another similar middle English word, burde, which also meant ‘young woman’. The usage crops up from time to time in later centuries, clearly as an independent metaphorical application, but there does not really seem to be an unbroken chain of occurrences leading up to the sudden explosion in the use of bird for ‘young woman’ in the 20th century.

There you go, thats what google reckons.  Apparently my guesstimation was a load of bollocks, oh well, tommorows another day! 

Edited January 16, 2020 by Len Cnut

[Padme]

2 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

So what are you saying; that despite records of contemporary Westminster constitutional debate and proceedings, royal correspondence and (world) media coverage; that despite a multitude of historiography; the Abdication Crisis of 1936 was not about something everyone else thought it was, but in fact was something else? 

 

I'm saying it was both. But at the time they made it look as it was ONLY about Wallis.

1 hour ago, Len Cnut said:

Padmes a bird ain't she?

I'm not a bird. Was I a bird in some past life? That I don't know 

[DieselDaisy]

42 minutes ago, Padme said:

I'm saying it was both. But at the time they made it look as it was ONLY about Wallis.

Utter horseshit. 

[SoulMonster]

Well, the British government was opposed to Wallis for a number of reasons, including rumours that she was a Nazi spy. 

[DieselDaisy]

Just now, SoulMonster said:

Well, the British government was opposed to Wallis for a number of reasons, including rumours that she was a Nazi spy. 

Yes, when she was the Duchess of Windsor!!

 

[Padme]

17 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Utter horseshit. 

That statement shows a great deal of evidence from your part 

[DieselDaisy]

Just now, Padme said:

That statement shows a great deal of evidence from your part 

The abdication crisis occurred because Wallis Simpson was a twice divorcee and a twice divorcee Queen-Consort offended the moral susceptibilities of the British and Commonwealth governments and the Church of England. 

[DieselDaisy]

Little bit of trivia but this elderly Bavarian chap, Franz Herzog von Bayern, would be King if not for the Act of Settlement and eclipse of Jacobitism. He is the oldest surviving heir to the Stuart bloodline, of Bonnie Prince Charlie,

He has never advanced his claim though.

[action]

2 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Little bit of trivia but this elderly Bavarian chap, Franz Herzog von Bayern, would be King if not for the Act of Settlement and eclipse of Jacobitism. He is the oldest surviving heir to the Stuart bloodline, of Bonnie Prince Charlie,

He has never advanced his claim though.

a german?

[Basic_GnR_Fan]

1 hour ago, Padme said:

I'm saying it was both. But at the time they made it look as it was ONLY about Wallis.

Can you provide any primary documentation or legitimate evidence this is the case? Even any good circumstantial evidence?

[DieselDaisy]

Just now, action said:

a german?

A Wittelsbach more specifically. The Stuart line passed firstly to the House of Savoy, then Habsburg-Lorraine before finally resting on the Wittelsbach, the former ruling family of Bavaria. 

[DieselDaisy]

Just think: if we had a German on the throne, we could have a royal family who open their Christmas presents on Christmas Eve like the Germans do! Hang on a minute...?

[SoulMonster]

56 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Yes, when she was the Duchess of Windsor!!

 

The rumours about her sympathy for the Nazi regime stemmed to before she married Edward and thus it is not implausible that this distrust between the government and she added to the decision to abdicate, although it was a minor one and overshadowed by other issues. 

[Dazey]

54 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Just think: if we had a German on the throne, we could have a royal family who open their Christmas presents on Christmas Eve like the Germans do! Hang on a minute...?

I’m married to a Mexican so we get to do that anyway. 

[spunko12345]

I'm in a pub waiting for someone and there's a copy of today's Sun on the table so I have a flick through it. Here are two letters from today's copy of the sun posted without further comment or judgement.

"If having Big Ben bong for Brexit is too expensive, let's have all church bells around the country ringing for freedom- then everyone can hear them. Frank Harvey, Feltham Middlesex"

"I feel sorry for Prince Harry. He was born into a life where he had little say in his future. If he wanted to be a plumber or builder he had no chance. I applaud him for breaking away from the Royal family and doing what he wants to do. Darrel Newman, Ipswich"

[DieselDaisy]

36 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

The rumours about her sympathy for the Nazi regime stemmed to before she married Edward and thus it is not implausible that this distrust between the government and she added to the decision to abdicate, although it was a minor one and overshadowed by other issues. 

I don't agree. The decision to abdicate was solely based on the impasse caused as a result of her being a twice divorcee. There is nothing to demonstrate otherwise. 

[DieselDaisy]

33 minutes ago, Dazey said:

I’m married to a Mexican so we get to do that anyway. 

It is a tradition not normal for Mexico,

[SoulMonster]

9 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

I don't agree. The decision to abdicate was solely based on the impasse caused as a result of her being a twice divorcee. 

I didn't say it wasn't, I said it isn't implausible that an ongoing conflict/distrust between the British government and Wallis regarding her alleged sympathy for the Nazi regime, would have weighed in on Edward's mind when deciding to abdicate. I don't think it was a major reason for the decision, just that perhaps it was one out of many, and also a particular unsavoury reason that neither the couple or others preferred to focus on. 

I also think you were a bit dismissive to Padme. She didn't say this was the sole reason, I think, but opened up for it being part of the explanation. You act a somewhat threatened when people challenge you on the topic of history. It is not like a quick skim at Wikipedia page doesn't mention the Nazi spy allegations from before the abdication. 

[DieselDaisy]

Just now, SoulMonster said:

I didn't say it wasn't, I said it isn't implausible that an ongoing conflict/distrust between the British government and Wallis regarding her alleged sympathy for the Nazi regime, would have weighed in on Edward's mind when deciding to abdicate. I don't think it was a major reason for the decision, just that perhaps it was one out of many, and also a particular unsavoury reason that neither the couple or others preferred to focus on. 

I also think you were a bit dismissive to Padme. She didn't say this was the sole reason, I think, but opened up for it being part of the explanation. You act a somewhat threatened when people challenge you on the topic of history. It is not like a quick skim at Wikipedia page doesn't mention the Nazi spy allegations from before the abdication. 

I think you are creating a fudge where simply no fudge belongs. Why would the Baldwin government of 1936 care unduly about alleged German sympathies of the future Queen-Consort (based on slight anecdotal evidence) when they themselves were in the full throes of appeasement-disarmament - I should point out that Lord Halifax was security of state for war in this ministry? A year earlier Britain and German had negotiated a naval treaty! 

[SoulMonster]

Just did a little reading and it seems like there is consensus among historians that the opposition to Wallis was comprised of various things, including her previous marriages, her not not being royal, her being American, and yes, a fear that she might disclose secrets to the Nazis. If course when Edward abdicated he just explained that by his desire to live with the woman he loved. 

[Basic_GnR_Fan]

Just now, SoulMonster said:

Just did a little reading and it seems like there is consensus among historians that the opposition to Wallis was comprised of various things, including her previous marriages, her not not being royal, her being American, and yes, a fear that she might disclose secrets to the Nazis. If course when Edward abdicated he just explained that by his desire to live with the woman he loved. 

Again, could someone please post some sources related to Wallis' NS sympathy as being part of the reasoning/discussions among the players involved. I'm not saying it's not true and am entirely open minded on the subject, but I'd like to see some evidence.

[DieselDaisy]

Another way to look at this is if Simpson was not a divorcee and regularly unfurled a swastika whilst singing the Horst-Wesse Liedl, she'd have become Queen-Consort and Edward VIII wouldn't have abdicated.

If Simpson, twice divorcee (as in reality), was an outspoken critic of Germany and/or Nazism, the Abdication Crisis would have still occurred with the same result: the abdication of Edward VIII.

 

 

 

[DieselDaisy]

4 minutes ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

Again, could someone please post some sources related to Wallis' NS sympathy as being part of the reasoning/discussions among the players involved. I'm not saying it's not true and am entirely open minded on the subject, but I'd like to see some evidence.

There is more - still very anecdotal - evidence of Edward's ''German'' sympathies but if we are going to regard them as aristocrats (Simpson did become Duchess of Windsor after all) there is little that was remarkable, that wasn't shared by other segments of the upper classes, including the British government itself! 

What seems to be forgotten here is the chronology. The crisis occurred in 1936. Any pro-German/Nazi sympathies relevant here inherently precede that year. They didn't say these things in 1944, bombed out cities, gas chambers in operation and most of Europe in ruins!

[Basic_GnR_Fan]

5 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

There is more - still very anecdotal - evidence of Edward's ''German'' sympathies but if we are going to regard them as aristocrats (Simpson did become Duchess of Windsor after all) there is little that was remarkable, that wasn't shared by other segments of the upper classes, including the British government itself! 

What seems to be forgotten here is the chronology. The crisis occurred in 1936. Any pro-German/Nazi sympathies relevant here inherently precede that year. They didn't say these things in 1944, bombed out cities, gas chambers in operation and most of Europe in ruins!

I think what people are leaving out is not if they loved Hitler or didn't love Hitler. Maybe these people just didn't want another war, having memories of how badly the last one went. Over 80% of the US population wanted nothing to do with another European war. That doesn't mean they all loved Hitler, it just means they didn't want war!

Again not saying that's the case, but that was a popular thought at the time that may have been shared by some of these Royals and elites in society.