British Politics

[DieselDaisy]

6 minutes ago, Graeme said:

Given support for independence (note, independence itself, not a second referendum) is polling higher now than at any point during the 2014 campaign, I doubt that. But we'll see what happens when the cards start to fall. 

I hate to break this to you but the the Tories are rampant in Scotland.

[Graeme]

Strange arithmetic you've got there where a party with 13 seats are "rampant" and a party with 35 seats are a busted flush.

[DieselDaisy]

4 minutes ago, Graeme said:

Strange arithmetic you've got there where a party with 13 seats are "rampant" and a party with 35 seats are a busted flush.

Would you have predicted that result before (the snap election)? A Scottish chap I know says that the Conservatives are - were - considered the 'dodo party'.

[janrichmond]

i voted Leave and i would again.

[wasted]

9 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

The two main parties are really just internecine overlapping coalitions of different interest groups from across a broad spectrum. Blair was probably closer to the left-wing of the Tories than he is of the far-left of Labour, his own party - Brown also. Generally some of them sacrifice their own ideologies for 'government', thus the left of Labour during the Blair era or even the traditional tory right wing under Thatcher, but they sort of endure sullenly - and this is where the government whips come into proceedings.

And the Tories had to modernise and becomimg more social. Is that why Portillo does those train tv shows? Man of the people?

 

[DieselDaisy]

24 minutes ago, wasted said:

And the Tories had to modernise and becomimg more social. Is that why Portillo does those train tv shows? Man of the people?

 

They've been doing that a lot longer than. The Tories were at one time the touchy feely party. Disraeli passing a more radical enfranchisement bill than Gladstone and rebranded the party into what is known as 'one-nation conservatism'. This is the mid-19th century, when socialism was in its infancy. Broadly speaking the Tories represented an alliance of the traditional rural gentry and working classes, whereas the Liberals were supported by the upper middle classes, big banking and finance, the main beneficiaries of the industrial revolution.

I suppose in someways that demonstrates what an odd revolution it was in the Conservatives, the rise of Thatcherism. It was a sort of u-turn.

Most of the political parties went through big changes and switched ideological positions at various points in time. Labour were actually quite the imperialists for instance (for the simple fact that they saw the empire as a vehicle to implement world socialism). It was actually under the Conservatives, much of the period of appeasement against Hitler, Baldwin and Chamberlain. And if you listened to an Eurosceptic speech from the 1980s it would probably be from the Labour benches, Tony Benn, Skinner, and (drum roll) Corbyn. The Liberals-Democrats have definitely turned into a sort of wet sounding loony lefty party in recent years in contrast to the days when they were seen as the genuine centre party under Paddy, an alternative for both Labour and the Tories. They all change - all these parties.

It is interesting how Sinn Fein have re-positioned themselves as a version of the Lib Dems or Greens on such subjects as women and gay rights. This is a party established on the bedrock of Roman Catholic identity politics!

[wasted]

12 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

They've been doing that a lot longer than. The Tories were at one time the touchy feely party. Disraeli passing a more radical enfranchisement bill than Gladstone and rebranded the party into what is known as 'one-nation conservatism'. This is the mid-19th century, when socialism was in its infancy. Broadly speaking the Tories represented an alliance of the traditional rural gentry and working classes, whereas the Liberals were supported by the upper middle classes, big banking and finance, the main beneficiaries of the industrial revolution.

I suppose in someways that demonstrates what an odd revolution it was in the Conservatives, the rise of Thatcherism. It was a sort of u-turn.

Most of the political parties went through big changes and switched ideological positions at various points in time. Labour were actually quite the imperialists for instance (for the simple fact that they saw the empire as a vehicle to implement world socialism). It was actually under the Conservatives, much of the period of appeasement against Hitler, Baldwin and Chamberlain. And if you listened to an Eurosceptic speech from the 1980s it would probably be from the Labour benches, Tony Benn, Skinner, and (drum roll) Corbyn. The Liberals-Democrats have definitely turned into a sort of wet sounding loony lefty party in recent years in contrast to the days when they were seen as the genuine centre party under Paddy, an alternative for both Labour and the Tories. They all change - all these parties.

It is interesting how Sinn Fein have re-positioned themselves as a version of the Lib Dems or Greens on such subjects as women and gay rights. This is a party established on the bedrock of Roman Catholic identity politics!

Because ultimately they are jostling for a way to control the people. To get them to accept (vote) to pay taxes and fight for the state if needed. So any integrity is pretty useless, it's like a popularity contest that ends up in slavery. It's basically tell them whatever they want to hear. 

[Graeme]

2 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

Would you have predicted that result before (the snap election)? A Scottish chap I know says that the Conservatives are - were - considered the 'dodo party'.

In all honesty, no, but I understand why it happened. In 2015, we were fresh off the back of the first referendum, the "Yes" movement all united behind the SNP, voter turnout was high, working-class communities that had been politicised during the independence referendum were turning out to vote and the "No" vote was split three ways. 

In 2017, the SNP vote ebbed: 

Partially because for the first time in a generation, Labour fielded a manifesto to the left of the SNP. I know people who voted "Yes" in 2014, would vote "Yes" again, but voted Labour in 2017 because they felt it was a chance to have a genuinely left-wing government at some level.

Partially because the communities that were engaged during the 2014 referendum have seen voter apathy creep back in and the SNP campaign was lacklustre, over 100,000 SNP voters from last time didn't turn out.

Partially because the SNP nailed their colours to the EU mast and there's a eurosceptic component that comprises between a quarter and a third of the wider independence movement.

Meanwhile, the Ruth Davidson Party made their flagship policy (actually their only real policy) "No to a second referendum" and the previously split Unionist vote coalesced around that, meaning the three-way split from 2015 was reduced. Under Davidson, the Tories are receiving roughly the same percentage share of the Scottish vote as Thatcher did during her three election victories, so they've only risen from "extremely unpopular" to "very unpopular" by the standards of all the historians who have evaluated the legacy of Thatcherism in Scotland.

There's nothing in there that says to me that independence is now unwinnable forever. 

 

[DieselDaisy]

2 hours ago, wasted said:

Because ultimately they are jostling for a way to control the people. To get them to accept (vote) to pay taxes and fight for the state if needed. So any integrity is pretty useless, it's like a popularity contest that ends up in slavery. It's basically tell them whatever they want to hear. 

A cynic's view and you'd be correct to be cynical.

 

Edited July 8, 2017 by DieselDaisy

[wasted]

1 hour ago, DieselDaisy said:

A cynic's view and you'd be correct to be cynical.

 

It almost seems like a romantic notion, freedom is a fantasy that only happens in superhero movies. 

[DieselDaisy]

6 hours ago, wasted said:

It almost seems like a romantic notion, freedom is a fantasy that only happens in superhero movies. 

Or 5th century (BC) Athens.

Edited July 8, 2017 by DieselDaisy

[wasted]

1 hour ago, DieselDaisy said:

Or 5th century (BC) Athens.

That's true cavemen where probably free but as soon as grunts came into play it was a conspiracy. 

[AtariLegend]

 

[wasted]

Leave the EU, break up the UK. Get invaded by France. 

[wasted]

On 8 July 2017 at 5:56 AM, Graeme said:

Given support for independence (note, independence itself, not a second referendum) is polling higher now than at any point during the 2014 campaign, I doubt that. But we'll see what happens when the cards start to fall. 

I've come to think that seperate countries shouldn't have to live by general rules made up by some other group. They need to be specific to Scotland. Whether it's London or EU they can't really tell Scotland how to live. It doesn't make sense. 

Edited July 9, 2017 by wasted

[DieselDaisy]

8 hours ago, wasted said:

I've come to think that seperate countries shouldn't have to live by general rules made up by some other group. They need to be specific to Scotland. Whether it's London or EU they can't really tell Scotland how to live. It doesn't make sense. 

Scotland possesses 59 Members of Parliament and has produced nine British Prime Ministers; the original Act of Union (1707) was passed 106/69 - the monarchies had already been amalgamated 1603; during the referendum (2014) 55.30% of Scots voted to remain in the union: this is hardly some under-represented colonised minority.

[wasted]

Just now, DieselDaisy said:

Scotland possesses 59 Members of Parliament and has produced nine British Prime Ministers; the original Act of Union (1707) was passed 106/69 - the monarchies had already been amalgamated 1603; during the referendum (2014) 55.30% of Scots voted to remain in the union: this is hardly some under-represented colonised minority.

My guess is they weren't really well represented. Represented in the right or best way for them. It seems more likely there was a London centric angle to everything. 

I really believe fundamentally making their own decisions would be better for them. But yeah they might get invaded by some barbariac european country. I'm not saying it would be perfect, but in principle I believe in it in theory. You might have to have the perfect conditions or situation for it to work though. 

I suppose I just like to travel and when go somewhere it not just to be this homogenized global standard culture. I know when I go to Paris I watch HBO and eat a McDonalds pulp fiction style. But still the best parts is the more French stuff. You don't want it to be like Renton in T2 really. It's just becoming like the airports are the same as the actual cities. Huge global brands just wall to wall in these faceless Demolition Man style cities. 

[DieselDaisy]

2 minutes ago, wasted said:

My guess is they weren't really well represented. Represented in the right or best way for them. It seems more likely there was a London centric angle to everything. 

I really believe fundamentally making their own decisions would be better for them. But yeah they might get invaded by some barbariac european country. I'm not saying it would be perfect, but in principle I believe in it in theory. You might have to have the perfect conditions or situation for it to work though. 

I suppose I just like to travel and when go somewhere it not just to be this homogenized global standard culture. I know when I go to Paris I watch HBO and eat a McDonalds pulp fiction style. But still the best parts is the more French stuff. You don't want it to be like Renton in T2 really. It's just becoming like the airports are the same as the actual cities. Huge global brands just wall to wall in these faceless Demolition Man style cities. 

Well if you want to listen to the reasons why Scotland is not homogenized, and has bugger all similarity with England, Graeme is your man - I'll just mention Munchy Boxes and Scot's Law and leave it at that.

The thing is Scotland was already Anglicised long before the Union. Firstly there had been an English speaking enclave in the south-east (Lothian) since as early as the 7th century (which was entwined with the Kingdom of Northumbria). Later, King David I, who had lived in exile in Norman-England, having assumed the Scottish throne in 1124 began proliferating Anglo-Norman culture throughout Scotland; this included the English (and French) language, administration (e.g. Norman feudalism) and custom.

(The situation is complicated by the fact that English itself was a secondary language to French in England itself, although this was around the time that English itself began to reassert itself as the language of administration and letters.)

By the late 14th century English had become the language of the elite, Gaelic being only spoken in the Highlands and outlaying islands. The Union of the monarchies in 1603 further consolidated this process of the desirability of possession of the English language, habits and customs being that the Stuarts, who were a Scottish dynasty incidentally, relocated to London and rarely visited their mother country.

[wasted]

29 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Well if you want to listen to the reasons why Scotland is not homogenized, and has bugger all similarity with England, Graeme is your man - I'll just mention Munchy Boxes and Scot's Law and leave it at that.

The thing is Scotland was already Anglicised long before the Union. Firstly there had been an English speaking enclave in the south-east (Lothian) since as early as the 7th century (which was entwined with the Kingdom of Northumbria). Later, King David I, who had lived in exile in Norman-England, having assumed the Scottish throne in 1124 began proliferating Anglo-Norman culture throughout Scotland; this included the English (and French) language, administration (e.g. Norman feudalism) and custom.

(The situation is complicated by the fact that English itself was a secondary language to French in England itself, although this was around the time that English itself began to reassert itself as the language of administration and letters.)

By the late 14th century English had become the language of the elite, Gaelic being only spoken in the Highlands and outlaying islands. The Union of the monarchies in 1603 further consolidated this process of the desirability of possession of the English language, habits and customs being that the Stuarts, who were a Scottish dynasty incidentally, relocated to London and rarely visited their mother country.

Seems similar to Palestine situation. Maybe at sometime it was more anglicized but now when ever I've been it's like going to some european country. There are some similarities but I don't feel at home like I do in an English city. 

But really what I was saying was based on whether should be based on history but just on principle, if you call yourself a country and you have any kind of cultural identity you should decide the rules for yourself. If some of them include England or whoever but decide seperately. 

[AtariLegend]

The phrase the Tory whip decided to use yesterday, I've never heard before in my life. Apparently though John Redwood/Bill Cash two people have always been to the right of the Tory right wingers either didn't think there was anything wrong with it or pretended they hadn't heard it.

It's not the first time though one of the Tory's right wingers have said it;

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/conservative/2273176/David-Cameron-urged-to-sack-Tory-peer-after-hooray for tolerance!-in-the-woodpile-remark.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tory-racism-racist-n-word-in-woodpile-anne-marie-morris-other-examples-conservatives-a7834291.html

[DieselDaisy]

Trump is visiting in 2018. You'll be pleased with that Atari then.

[wasted]

By then Corbyn will be in and he'll take Trump to some non-league football game. Get food poisoning from a frozen van pie, tremendous poisoning, huge diarehia. 

[DieselDaisy]

The Corbynistas will be pelting abuse at Trump's motorcade as it heads down the mall.

[wasted]

Trump was a Hillary supporter 3 years ago. Now he's like a pseudo fascist dictator to feel superior to. 

Edited July 11, 2017 by wasted

[AtariLegend]

I'd be more worried about Trump, if this creature wasn't next in line for PM;