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18 minutes ago, mishan said:

People keep saying things to the effect that to make an omelette you have to break some eggs. Seen lots of broken eggs, yet to see an omelette.

Politics and society is not like cooking, though, you won't see perfect dishes and flawless meals, it is just trying to make it as good as possible for everyone. If you expect perfection, then you will be endlessly disappointed, and that just foments indifference, apathy and even animosity towards the system. Hence Trump. 

Back to that thing about EU. It's a huge thing, it affects many aspects of our societies. Some will suffer, some will benefit. Those that suffer will be opposed, those that benefit will be in favor. That is how it is, and how we expect it to be. It's democracy, typically vote selfishly. But to condemn EU as a whole based on isolated effects on sub-industries, instead of looking at the overall effect, the net effect, it might have on individual countries and Europe in total, is a bit disingenuous. I don't think any political system, alliance or major structural change, will result in everybody being better off. It doesn't work that way. 

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47 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Politics and society is not like cooking, though, you won't see perfect dishes and flawless meals, it is just trying to make it as good as possible for everyone. If you expect perfection, then you will be endlessly disappointed, and that just foments indifference, apathy and even animosity towards the system. Hence Trump. 

Back to that thing about EU. It's a huge thing, it affects many aspects of our societies. Some will suffer, some will benefit. Those that suffer will be opposed, those that benefit will be in favor. That is how it is, and how we expect it to be. It's democracy, typically vote selfishly. But to condemn EU as a whole based on isolated effects on sub-industries, instead of looking at the overall effect, the net effect, it might have on individual countries and Europe in total, is a bit disingenuous. I don't think any political system, alliance or major structural change, will result in everybody being better off. It doesn't work that way. 

I know the world isn't perfect. I'm far from utopian. How do you reckon the EU is a democracy? Did you elect those folks in Brussels? Can you vote them out of office?

No? But it's okay that they make the rules for you, even though they've never even been to where you live?

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1 minute ago, mishan said:

I know the world isn't perfect. I'm far from utopian. How do you reckon the EU is a democracy? Did you elect those folks in Brussels? Can you vote them out of office?

No? But it's okay that they make the rules for you, even though they've never even been to where you live?

I certainly did not elect them, my country isn't even part of the EU :). I didn't mean that EU is a democracy as such, more than when it comes to voting on whether to be part (or to exit) the EU, people's vote will mostly be determined by its effect on them personally, and not on the overall effect. And these elections are democratic. That was my point.

But since we inadvertently started talking about the democracy of EU: Lack of democratic eligibility is certainly a problem with the EU, but as far as I understand it, election to the European Parliament is through direct voting, so that is a direct democratic process at least. I also believe that when it comes to other EU institutions, elected national leaders will appoint these, and as such it is at least indirectly a democratic process (you vote on your British politicians who then get to decide who will represent them in the EU, just like we vote on politicians who get to decide other things for us -- we live in representative democracies). 

And as for your last point: If I could choose then you would have local democracies with elected people who make local rules (rules that only affect a small region, by people living in that region), and then, as a new layer onto the onion, you have a national democracy where you vote in national politicians who make rules that needs to be harmonized across many local regions, and lastly, EU, in my ideal world, is just another layer on top of that, with elected politicians (elected directly or indirectly) who create rules on a higher level meant to regulate interactions between countries in Europe. I know it is not like this everywhere where local democracy isn't working well and where EU interferes apparently mindlessly with national governance. So people feel rules are forced upon them, either from London or from Brussels, right. I also think that a lot of complaining come from people who don't understand how things work, aren't aware of local/regional democracies, and generally use politicians and the system are scapegoats for problems arising from their own incompetence or larger structural changes in society. 

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1 hour ago, mishan said:

I know the world isn't perfect. I'm far from utopian. How do you reckon the EU is a democracy? Did you elect those folks in Brussels? Can you vote them out of office?

No? But it's okay that they make the rules for you, even though they've never even been to where you live?

 In the U.S. they vote for a President and members of Congress. But nobody votes for the FBI chief. Well in the EU and in the UK you have a similar situation. So you elected people and it is their job to designate a high rank government agencies chief.  The EU is a democracy because there is an European Parliament a and you vote for MEP.

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1 hour ago, Padme said:

 In the U.S. they vote for a President and members of Congress. But nobody votes for the FBI chief. Well in the EU and in the UK you have a similar situation. So you elected people and it is their job to designate a high rank government agencies chief.  The EU is a democracy because there is an European Parliament a and you vote for MEP.

The difference is that the FBI director doesn't get to make laws. The EU bureaucracy does get to make laws. And it's a bit far removed to see it as a democratic process.

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36 minutes ago, mishan said:

The difference is that the FBI director doesn't get to make laws. The EU bureaucracy does get to make laws. And it's a bit far removed to see it as a democratic process.

If the EU bureaucracy is making a law. It is because the EU Parliament made a law that gives certain powers to people like Juncker. Assuming the UK was against this. The UK complained ages ago, not now. Besides when the UK government announced that a referendum was going to take place in June 2016. Cameron or somebody should've called Juncker. And organized meetings with EU bureaucracy regarding an hypotetical Leave outcome. And how to make it as painless as possible for the UK. The UK government was not prepared at all. The Leave outcome caught the UK government off guard with no strategy or plan of any kind.

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4 hours ago, mishan said:

How do you reckon the EU is a democracy? Did you elect those folks in Brussels?

Yes actually. EU Parliament is elected by proportional representation.

The Council is each member's head of government, i.e the UK's is May. The commission which isn't elected is made up of representatives chosen by each member's head of state who is elected.

It's technically more democratic than the House of Lords.

 

Edited by AtariLegend

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4 hours ago, mishan said:

No? But it's okay that they make the rules for you, even though they've never even been to where you live?

You mean like the Tories that have never been to this part of the country?

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13 hours ago, Padme said:

No Henry VIII powers. Thanks to some rebel Tories who decided to join the opposition :smiley-confused2:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/13/tory-brexit-rebels-inflict-major-defeat-on-theresa-may

 

Actually there was an amendment on removing the Henry VIII powers immediately after that vote. The government won that one.

That vote above that was the headline, was on making the vote on the deal actually mean something. So there is an obscure chance Brexit does get stopped in the end, but I still reckon the best chance is another election.

Edited by AtariLegend

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19 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Henry VIII powers? Which idiot came up with that description?

Believe it or not Henry the 8th.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proclamation_by_the_Crown_Act_1539

The difference is a PM now has those powers.

For those not from the UK, let's say a bill is passed... This kind of clause if inserted into the bill, makes it possible to change everything the bill covers retrospectively without vote. In other words changing the description of laws retrospectively after a vote has occurred and not allowing a re-vote.

Sounds a bit silly using a 16th century technicality, right? Well not for these people.

Edited by AtariLegend

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1 minute ago, AtariLegend said:

Believe it or not Henry the 8th.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proclamation_by_the_Crown_Act_1539

The difference is a PM now has those powers.

For those not from the UK, let's say a bill is passed... It makes it possible to change everything the bill covers retrospectively without vote. In other words changing the description of laws retrospectively after a vote has occurred and not allowing a re-vote.

Sounds a bit silly using a 16th century technicality, right? Well not for these people.

The analogy with the Henrician act is utter bollocks. 

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6 hours ago, AtariLegend said:

They included the clause in the bill. So nope.

I'll read into it when I get the time.

You do realise that if there is another general election, resulting in either another Tory or a Labour government, under both outcomes there will still be buckfast? 

Quote

Labour accepts the referendum result and a Labour government will put the national interest first.

- their official website

 

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