Jump to content

British Politics


Gracii Guns

Recommended Posts

5 hours ago, Oldest Goat said:

The EU wants to impose its bureaucratic powers as a 2nd/background government. Think about that. That is an extremely dangerous slippery slope. Be very cautious of that. Especially since any resistance to this diabolical scheme is apparently met with anger, condescension and dismissal. If DD or myself or whoever's not for the EU are wrong you guys who are for it should calm down and do a much better job selling it.

I really don't understand what you mean

Link to comment
Share on other sites

38 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

What don't you understand?

All I'm saying is the fact the EU has their own government it wants to push onto each country involved and wants their own army and god knows what else; that is very serious. But you and the others who have been paying attention to this seem to be ignoring it and acting like remaining in the EU is a 100% positive thing and anyone who questions that is a moron. You're oversimplifying the issue. I'm speaking generally mainly in reaction to @Dazey @SoulMonster 

To me the argument "We have to stay in the EU for the good trade deals." Falls flat on its face because the cost is too high and I'm shocked you guys don't see that and don't even attempt to counter.

Are you guys really prepared to have an outsider secondary government?

As I've said I'm quite ignorant on the situation so I'm wanting to gauge your reactions and hear your insights. Maybe I should just stay out of it lol. I do agree with @downzy I should bother to read up on things. But then again you guys should do all the work for me, don't you get that?! :lol:

My main argument in this discussion isn't that the UK should remain in the EU, but that if the public opinion has shifted resulting in a significant majority for "stay", then they shouldn't be bound by a referendum from more than two years ago. And similarly, if the majority still think they should leave, then they should get out as soon as possible before the consensus shifts. They are doing it completely ass-backwards. So my argument is more of a principle nature and hasn't really anything to do with EU but more how the UK does democracy.

I have also never said there are no rational arguments against the EU, nor that everybody opposed to EU comes from a perspective of racism/xenophobia. I don't think I even said that Diesel's opposition must entirely be understood as him being xenophobic/having a stereotypic view of other people/cultures.

As for my personal opinion on the EU: Like the UN it needs to be modernized, more democratic and less bureaucratic; but that being said, I am all in favor of some form of global or large-territorial over-governance. Did that blow your mind? I think this is crucial for humanity to develop more peaceful and fair long-term social constructs. The more we collaborate in trade, criminal investigation, humanitarian efforts, etc, the better equipped we are to reduce friction and wars. I don't necessarily believe that the EU and UN, or whatever super-organization we are talking about, will increase corruption, but that necessities a huge level of transparency, which brings me back to my point on it needing an overhaul. An overhaul must also happen from within, so I would prefer countries to remain and improve the system rather than leave (if possible). I also don't buy into this almost conspiratorial distrust of governments and politicians that I see is so prevalent among younger people. I find it disconcerting and a threat to democracy. But then again, I come from a country where we have a highly functional government with lots of transparency and it is natural I think we should be able to do this on a grander scale, too, although there must of course be a large extent of local governance too (think the United States of America). Maybe I am wrong. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

50 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

What don't you understand?

All I'm saying is the fact the EU has their own government it wants to push onto each country involved and wants their own army and god knows what else; that is very serious. But you and the others who have been paying attention to this seem to be ignoring it and acting like remaining in the EU is a 100% positive thing and anyone who questions that is a moron. You're oversimplifying the issue. I'm speaking generally mainly in reaction to @Dazey @SoulMonster 

To me the argument "We have to stay in the EU for the good trade deals." Falls flat on its face because the cost is too high and I'm shocked you guys don't see that and don't even attempt to counter.

Are you guys really prepared to have an outsider secondary government?

As I've said I'm quite ignorant on the situation so I'm wanting to gauge your reactions and hear your insights. Maybe I should just stay out of it lol. I do agree with @downzy I should bother to read up on things. But then again you guys should do all the work for me, don't you get that?! :lol:

The one issue about reading up on things is that you dont know how correct one writer is.  The united nations in my view should be dismantled as ive never seen  the point or value of certain countries being signitories to the UN. And im sure there would be a whole level of corruption within that organisation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Oldest Goat said:

What don't you understand?

All I'm saying is the fact the EU has their own government it wants to push onto each country involved and wants their own army and god knows what else; that is very serious. But you and the others who have been paying attention to this seem to be ignoring it and acting like remaining in the EU is a 100% positive thing and anyone who questions that is a moron. You're oversimplifying the issue. I'm speaking generally mainly in reaction to @Dazey @SoulMonster 

To me the argument "We have to stay in the EU for the good trade deals." Falls flat on its face because the cost is too high and I'm shocked you guys don't see that and don't even attempt to counter.

Are you guys really prepared to have an outsider secondary government?

As I've said I'm quite ignorant on the situation so I'm wanting to gauge your reactions and hear your insights. Maybe I should just stay out of it lol. I do agree with @downzy I should bother to read up on things. But then again you guys should do all the work for me, don't you get that?! :lol:

 The EU has 27 members because those 27 countries wanted to be in. It's like club, the club has rules. If you don't like it then don't join it in the first place. Can some of those rules be changed? Of course, but I don't see how someone from the outside can change those rules.

The issue of the EU army is an idea that came up after the many terrorist attacks that took place in different European countries. There is no policy in place yet. We don't know what is going to happen with that. The main issue is to prevent attacks.

The secondary government is not outsider. European institutions located in Europe. I'm interested in other policies beyond just trade deals. Like the European roads and the fact that when I arrive in Rome I don't have to deal with costums nor with stupid questions from immigration officials. As soon as I leave the plane I go straight to luggages claim

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

I don't know. I look at Greece and how the UK is being treated even for considering leaving and I think the club is not very nice. But I suppose feeling as though any rules that need changing are best done from the inside is a fair point.

How would an EU army suddenly prevent attacks? I would expect things like stupid customs officials to ramp-up and increase if anything.

So you're saying because it's European institution it's not an outsider if their EU government is meddling in your country? That is very strange to me I guess it's agree to disagree on that one.

Who do you think is in the EU government? Yes, people from the EU!

Why does it seem ridiculous to have one EU army instead of having 27 small armies?

Have you seen how small Europe is? Right now they're talking about having nuclear weapons pointing at/stationed in Europe, as we happen to be between Russia and the US. I for one feel much better in a group than when it's each country for itself.

Why are you okay with the USA, but some sort of United States of Europe along the way would be super creepy and worthy of conspiracy theories to you? I don't get that at all.

You keep going on about not believing there wouldn't be any trade anymore. Of course there would still be trade. But it would become a lot more expensive and complex at least in the short term. Fresh produce for example will be hard, if trucks have to wait and wait to get everything sorted and cross the border. Will it be settled in the long term? Hopefully, yes, but by that time many small businesses will have gone bankrupt.

And concerning the socalled threatening by EU: you can't expect to have your cake and eat it. You can't expect to break the contract you entered without repercussions.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

European army,

Quote

"I want to build a real security dialogue with Russia, which is a country I respect, a European country - but we must have a Europe that can defend itself on its own without relying only on the United States."

- Macron

Seems it is directed at Russia then, freeing Europe from NATO commitments. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, Lio said:

 

Why does it seem ridiculous to have one EU army instead of having 27 small armies?

I assume a EU army would not replace the existing national armies but be based upon the NATO model by which European countries draw upon their national establishment in order to fulfill NATO military quotas. I cannot possibly conceive of the French ditching their (military) pomp and ceremony.

Edited by DieselDaisy
Wrote UN instead.
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

All this leading up to a question about where Canada fits into possible new military landscape in EU: 

Around 60 000 Canadians died in WW1. We were still a Dominion of Great Britain so as soon as Britain declared war it meant that Canada was at war (although our Govt declared war like the day before or something to save face, lol). Then in 1931 the Statute of Westminster was signed granting us legislative independence. So Canada entered WW2 on its own accord (some say primarily to display its 'sovereignty'). Canada and Newfoundland (not yet part of the Confederacy) lost 44 090 combatants in WW2. Canada played a huge role in combat, arms production and trained a lot of Common Wealth pilots here as well.  And not only Common Wealth, Canada created "Camp X" where a Canadian code name "Intrepid" trained British and US spies, along with select European spies as well. He's said to be an inspiration for James Bond and also contributed to the foundations of the modern CIA and British services (MI_?'s). 

Today Canada has close economic and military ties with European NATO Nations, EU, UK and US (however strained by Trump)

How would Canadas' alliances and interests, given the rich history of fighting to liberate Europe while also informing UK and US Intelligence Structures, fit into a post-Brexit-restructured-EU-Military-reality, against the backdrop of US/Russia tensions? Can we still be friends with all our traditional allies?

Edited by soon
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Oldest Goat said:

How would an EU army suddenly prevent attacks? I would expect things like stupid customs officials to ramp-up and increase if anything.

First with data base, sharing information. All countries following the same protocols, same traning for soldiers and police officers. Same way to prevent and fighting terrorist.  This is still a possibility, an idea they came up with.

The roads and trains conecting different countries. You can go from Portugal to Germany using the same road. It is marck by an E. Truck transporting good as well as travellers use those road all the time.

In U.S. airports custom and immigration officials are a nightmare. There are tactil machines for immigration. Answering stupid question to a machine. The security guys even have dogs sniffing your carry on luggage and you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I dunno whether I'm exceptionally thick or something but I've never had the confidence to make assertions like a lot of people in this thread are making.  'an EU army would be good', 'no it wouldn't', my overriding feeling with such things is always that I don't really know.  Most especially where like, in a way, there's lives on the line, I've never been that confident. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, soon said:

All this leading up to a question about where Canada fits into possible new military landscape in EU: 

Around 60 000 Canadians died in WW1. We were still a Dominion of Great Britain so as soon as Britain declared war it meant that Canada was at war (although our Govt declared war like the day before or something to save face, lol). Then in 1931 the Statute of Westminster was signed granting us legislative independence. So Canada entered WW2 on its own accord (some say primarily to display its 'sovereignty'). Canada and Newfoundland (not yet part of the Confederacy) lost 44 090 combatants in WW2. Canada played a huge role in combat, arms production and trained a lot of Common Wealth pilots here as well.  And not only Common Wealth, Canada created "Camp X" where a Canadian code name "Intrepid" trained British and US spies, along with select European spies as well. He's said to be an inspiration for James Bond and also contributed to the foundations of the modern CIA and British services (MI_?'s). 

Today Canada has close economic and military ties with European NATO Nations, EU, UK and US (however strained by Trump)

How would Canadas' alliances and interests, given the rich history of fighting to liberate Europe while also informing UK and US Intelligence Structures, fit into a post-Brexit-restructured-EU-Military-reality, against the backdrop of US/Russia tensions? Can we still be friends with all our traditional allies?

Good old Mackenzie King. Canada was also vital in sustaining the Atlantic convoy route from U-Boats; it was vital to pass forth convoys to Canadian resources beyond the range of our long-range bombers operating from England. Canadians, the 2nd Infantry Division, landed on Juno but you'll not find that bit of information in anything American! If the Germans had landed in Britain during Operation Sealion the one foreign division we had was actually Canadian.

There is also Dieppe which was a fiasco but at least the allies learnt a lot for Overload. 

Edited by DieselDaisy
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Oldest Goat said:

I just think it's a bit much if it's at the point of slander saying DD is a racist xenophobe etc.

He called me a xenophobe on here the other day. ME! EVAN! I couldn't be more the opposite. I'm not saying he is a xenophobe because I don't know him (and I don't want to know him), but judging by some of his posts (and not because he's against the EU because that doesn't mean shit) I can understand where the other poster was coming from who made that comment, so I don't agree with the term slander. But feel free to disagree.

It's easy to criticize the EU because many things should go different and it's far from perfect, but I'm a firm believer that one should make a difference while being part of it instead of running away from it. I respect your opinion, but maybe you don't see the broader picture since you live on the other side of the world. I've been to Poland before and after they joined the EU (in 2004) and I've seen the benefits with my own eyes. I know a sceptic will mention the drawbacks since countries like Poland have joined the EU, but I believe that that is something we have to change from within the EU. But that's just my opinion. To be honest, I'm really tired of this Brexit drama, I can't turn on the TV or it's about Brexit, so I'm going to turn away from it.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

Do I seem confident? Because I don't feel like it lol. Not really. It's an intellectual game, more or less, that we all seem to be losing in the end. I just speak from the heart and wing everything. Firing into the dark hoping to hit a target. Grasping at the ghost of semblance of control.

I'm actually watching this movie 'IO' on Netflix about the Earth dying and humanity staggering off into the abyss of space, feeling depressed not confident or particularly clever.

I guess even the best are just putting forward some sort of an educated guess, perhaps my approach is wrong, perhaps this shit isn't the arena of mathematical certainties. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Good old Mackenzie King. Canada was also vital in sustaining the Atlantic convoy route from U-Boats; it was vital to pass forth convoys to Canadian resources beyond the range of our long-range bombers operating from England. Canadians, the 2nd Infantry Division, landed on Juno but you'll not find that bit of information in anything American! If the Germans had landed in Britain during Operation Sealion the one foreign division we had was actually Canadian.

There is also Dieppe which was a fiasco but at least the allies learnt a lot for Overload. 

I toured McKenzie Kings house. His childhood house, that is, that he shared with his mother in what became a truly Norman Bates thing. After she passed, and during his time in Office, an unmarried McKenzie king used divination to contact her. He claims to have communed with Leonardo Da Vinci, his mom, and a number of dead dogs. One of those dogs was taxidermied next to him as he went along with the seances. All this info is from the mans own journals! Not sure how widely known that is since its only come to light in more recent times.

I had the chance to speak with men who fought in some of those missions and fronts. Its a profound experience not only to hear the memories, but to experience their body language and disposition as they share. And I love attending the annual Tulip Festival when Holland sends us Tulips for saving their Queen. I note that Canadian vets of WW2, in my experience, don't have much to say about the Yanks either, lol.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, soon said:

I toured McKenzie Kings house. His childhood house, that is, that he shared with his mother in what became a truly Norman Bates thing. After she passed, and during his time in Office, an unmarried McKenzie king used divination to contact her. He claims to have communed with Leonardo Da Vinci, his mom, and a number of dead dogs. One of those dogs was taxidermied next to him as he went along with the seances. All this info is from the mans own journals! Not sure how widely known that is since its only come to light in more recent times.

I had the chance to speak with men who fought in some of those missions and fronts. Its a profound experience not only to hear the memories, but to experience their body language and disposition as they share. And I love attending the annual Tulip Festival when Holland sends us Tulips for saving their Queen. I note that Canadian vets of WW2, in my experience, don't have much to say about the Yanks either, lol.

I did hear King was a strange kettle of fish. He met Hitler in 1937, channeling Hitler's ''mystic'' energy, determining that Hitler would become some sort of Wagnerian hero. And here he is,

1937.jpg

Edited by DieselDaisy
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, EvanG said:

He called me a xenophobe on here the other day. ME! EVAN! I couldn't be more the opposite. I'm not saying he is a xenophobe because I don't know him (and I don't want to know him), but judging by some of his posts (and not because he's against the EU because that doesn't mean shit) I can understand where the other poster was coming from who made that comment, so I don't agree with the term slander. But feel free to disagree.

''Miss, Diesel drew a willy on my maths book''. 

  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...