rocknroll41 Posted May 13, 2017 Share Posted May 13, 2017 mods: feel free to merge with another thread if one like this already exists here. Figured I'd start a thread for writers on this forum to share their ideas and maybe even help eachother out with writer's block. Allow me to start: So I'm currently developing a sci-fi/ fantasy novel, and have been doing research on fantasy franchises I am influenced by in order to get some inspiration. One thing I have noticed is that pretty much all of them (Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, Legend of Zelda, Harry Potter, Game of Thrones, The Matrix, etc) borrow from King Arthur-related mythology in some way or another. i was hoping to do the same with my story, only im worried that because the King Arthur tropes have been used so much now that my take on it may not be original. for example: I wanted my story to involve a girl traveling to the island of Avalon to awaken King Arthur from his slumber there...only problem is that Star Wars beat me to it (rey finds luke on an island). anyone else run into problems like this? Where they have an idea only to realize that it's already been done? In some cases multiple times? Is this why most movies/books/shows/games seem boring as fuck these days? Has the well for good fantasy ideas been dried up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AxlsFavoriteRose Posted May 13, 2017 Share Posted May 13, 2017 1 hour ago, rocknroll41 said: mods: feel free to merge with another thread if one like this already exists here. Figured I'd start a thread for writers on this forum to share their ideas and maybe even help eachother out with writer's block. Allow me to start: So I'm currently developing a sci-fi/ fantasy novel, and have been doing research on fantasy franchises I am influenced by in order to get some inspiration. One thing I have noticed is that pretty much all of them (Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, Legend of Zelda, Harry Potter, Game of Thrones, The Matrix, etc) borrow from King Arthur-related mythology in some way or another. i was hoping to do the same with my story, only im worried that because the King Arthur tropes have been used so much now that my take on it may not be original. for example: I wanted my story to involve a girl traveling to the island of Avalon to awaken King Arthur from his slumber there...only problem is that Star Wars beat me to it (rey finds luke on an island). anyone else run into problems like this? Where they have an idea only to realize that it's already been done? In some cases multiple times? Is this why most movies/books/shows/games seem boring as fuck these days? Has the well for good fantasy ideas been dried up? not at all. just drop the King Arthur aspect and you could have countless other fantasties! space travel, (either from the old ties or into the future. this series seems to me to have a lot on it's bones, maybe it's JMO though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasted Posted May 13, 2017 Share Posted May 13, 2017 (edited) I generally just write a bunch of shit then something will come to me. It doesn't always work out but I never have too many pre conceived notions, just an idea or character. Sometimes I splice two stories together or give something new clothes. It helps to find that core story and that will reshape it on the second draft, third, fourth and so on until it can fuck itself. But it's much easier to have a tequila and sprite and watch CNN. Edited May 13, 2017 by wasted 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john lennon Posted May 13, 2017 Share Posted May 13, 2017 Used to write a lot before, but these days I just can't concentrate or get anything done whatsoever. I do sit on a bunch of ideas tho, so maybe some day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Len Cnut Posted May 13, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted May 13, 2017 (edited) Everything has been done before. Literally everything. In terms of narrative tales we are hard-wired to respond to certain things, this is why genre conventions exist, whats different is how you switch shit up in your telling of it. Between the fuckin' Greeks and Shakespeare you have it all, it's about themes and writing about them in a way to where human beings respond to shit. You wanna write fantasy? OK, step one. Forget that you're writing fantasy. Just wipe that shit right out of your mind and concentrate on the narrative. And then look at that narrative and ask yourself firstly how will reader respond to that shit...read it back to yourself and note down your own responses. whats wrong with it, whats right with it, what appeals about, whats off putting? Then start stripping it down. Figure out what the fuck you wanna say and what the fuck you wanna write and then transplant a fantasy thing on top of it. The fundamental mistake, especially with stuff like fantasy, is to sit down setting out to write a fantasy piece because thats what gets your dick hard because when you approach a thing like that you will necessarily start stacking it up against any and every fantasy piece you ever heard of. Concentrate on the nuts and bolts first, the tale you wanna tell, then the key figures in it and work that shit out to perfection. It could be about Jean Marie who runs a chain of gas stations and one day a stranger enters her life or...y'know, whatever, it doesn't matter, you can transplant that shit into a whorehouse in a western or the president of the united states having an affair or....Queen Zelda from the planet Zog, what matters is the tale itself and how strong that is and how that appeals to people, thats like...the outline of the drawing, the rest, the fantasy aspect, thats just the colouring in that you do later and it is in that way that you will come up with something that is properly original or at least original to the genre, if you sit there looking at fantasy shit and figuring what you can do with it it will get you nowhere because that King Arthur shit, that aspect of those narratives is what drew you, whether conciously or unconciously, to that shit in the first place, the nature of those narratives appeals to you or you wouldn't be a fantasy fan so when you look at it as a genre thats all you're gonna see. It's like Star Wars, thats basically a western set in space. The substance, the power of a tale is in the narrative, you can take the narrative of something like, i dunno, pick a Hitchcock movie, say Rope, now you can take that shit and set it any-fuckin'-where you fancy in any era or any context and that shit will be powerful as fuck because the nuts and bolts are all in the right place, by focusing on the genre before the narrative you are focusing on the roof before the foundations. Perhaps take shit, take images..and build on them. Like for instance, and forgive me because i know zero about fantasy, in fact i despise it but OK, this bitch is travelling to whoosamawhatsit to awaken King Arthur...how about this, King Arthurs dead. Thats a great image, a dead king, you can shoot off of that in a million different directions and it offers a thousand questions for you the writer to answer and expand on and go places and create an entire tale around. You can draw on aincient history and Shakespeare and all kindsa shit for hints of profundity in relation to that, I'm not saying do exactly that, don't get me wrong but like...y'know, twist shit, develop a perverse sense of humour, there's more shit out there than you think that today is considered deep and profound or like...y'know, enduring and it started off as almost a satirical pastiche. For example look at westerns, the biggest fuckin' westerns now in human history, at least to the uninitiated, are Spaghetti Westerns, y'know, Eastwood, the man with no name, good the bad and the ugly, all that...there is a great deal of sense of humour to that shit, in a perverse way, it's very post modern, almost like a pisstake of a western, stradling the fine line between satirising and subverting whilst necessarily having a deep love for the genre and it's conventions and so forth. Edited May 13, 2017 by Len Cnut 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocknroll41 Posted May 13, 2017 Author Share Posted May 13, 2017 These are all great suggestions, thanks everyone! @Len Cnut you make a very good point. I need to focus on the characters and morals before building the world. @Oldest Goat Id love to answer those questions you had at the end of your post, but I'm also afraid of giving away too many ideas. Plus, I don't really have all of the answers figured out myself yet. I'm trying to borrow from myths, but the myths themselves have so many different variations (for example: some say Avalon was an island and others say it's just a part of Glastonbury. Also, some say King Arthur went there to die and others say he's just magically "sleeping" there). I think i need to do what Len said and figure out the "bones" of my story before putting the "meat and skin" on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soon Posted May 13, 2017 Share Posted May 13, 2017 Im not a writer but I enjoy listening to writers talk about the craft. So this thread is a fun read for me. I listen to this show on the radio called Writers and Company, and here is a link to the podcasts if anyones interested. http://www.cbc.ca/radio/podcasts/arts-culture/writers-company/ One thing that I find neat is when novelists talk about characters disagreeing with the author during writing; that the author writes one thing and then the character 'says' to the author that they want to go in a different direction. And I really love the movie Stranger Than Fiction which deals with this. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rovim Posted May 13, 2017 Share Posted May 13, 2017 (edited) This is awkward. I treasure the times when I can muster enough courage to read a book once in a while. You know... finish it and everything. Always wanted to make an attempt to write a short retarded story like Del but I think maybe I need to read a lot of books first and actually have something interesting to say for the entire time before I put the shit to the fan. I don't understand how these assholes even connect all the ideas and form a viable structure, tie it all together like that. I guess it's kinda like Adler's mom. In these modern times where you can watch an M. Night Shamalyan movie at the comfort of your own S&M dungeon, books do feel a tad gimped in comparison no offense. It's not the 70's anymore, let it go. There are enough harry potter novels. Besides, VR is making a comeback, just sayin'. Brutalizing my ink is the way I'd aspire it. Edited May 17, 2017 by Rovim 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Dog Posted May 13, 2017 Share Posted May 13, 2017 1 hour ago, Oldest Goat said: No worries, they were rhetorical I'm just trying to prod you like Len is. Westerns are a perfect example really. So you're researching this stuff as in real world history and academic theories about these myths and love geeking out over it in that way? I assume this girl is going to share this same passion? Drawing from real life is one way to make things feel more real. Figuring out how and why she ticks is where I'd start because nobody gives a fuck if your main character is boring. Unless of course you deliberately make her boring for humour. Here's a quote that's been attributed to several people apparently but I can't be bothered verifying right now "In writing, you must kill all your darlings." 100% agree with this. You need to be destructive and not expect to just magically create and make things happen without being brave and taking risks. Don't put all your eggs in one basket is a similar way of saying what he's getting at. Here's a great quote from Ernest Hemingway "The first draft of anything is shit." That's a good one from Hemingway. I like the kill your darlings better. You can try a little and have a decent first, but cutting out all the bullshit and trimming the fat is hard. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AxlsFavoriteRose Posted May 13, 2017 Share Posted May 13, 2017 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Rovim said: This is awkward. I treasure the times when I can muster enough courage to read a book once in a while. You know... finish it and everything. Always wanted to make an attempt to write a short retarded story like Del but I think maybe I need to read a lot of books first and actually have something interesting to say for the entire time before I put the shit to the fan. I don't understand how these assholes even connect all the ideas and form a viable structure, tie it all together like that. I guess it's kinda like Adler's mom. In these modern times where you can watch an M. Night Shamalyan movie at the comfort of your own S&M dungeon, books do feel a tad obsolete no offense. It's not the 70's anymore, let it go. There are enough harry potter novels. Besides, virtual reality is making a comeback, just sayin'. My aspired advice: brutalize the ink. 22 minutes ago, Rovim said: In these modern times where you can watch an M. Night Shamalyan movie at the comfort of your own S&M dungeon, LOL would love to see that 22 minutes ago, Rovim said: books do feel a tad obsolete no offense. i disagree ( no offense. ) i LOVE books! i have never read a Harry Potter book in my life. i do read everything from Steinbeck to Stephen King. i don't like Kindles, i prefer real books. i have bouts of severe insomnia and one of the techniques given to me was to turn off ALL electronic devices like TV, laptops or whatever at least one hour before trying to sleep. so that's when i snuggle in bed with my book btw a really good thriller kinda gets me as stirred up as a TV would IMO. oh well Edited May 13, 2017 by AxlsFavoriteRose 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rovim Posted May 13, 2017 Share Posted May 13, 2017 (edited) 23 minutes ago, AxlsFavoriteRose said: LOL would love to see that i disagree ( no offense. ) i LOVE books! i have never read a Harry Potter book in my life. i do read everything fro Steinbeck to Stephen King. i don't like Kindles, i prefer real books. i have bouts of severe insomnia and one of the techniques given to me was to turn off ALL electronic devices like TV, laptops or whatever at least one hour before trying to sleep. so that's when i snuggle in bed with my book It was an obsolete joke I've edited out, it's gimped now. I do own a few books and not only ones that mostly deal with baked goods. But the short attention span is cancerous. Edited May 13, 2017 by Rovim 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AxlsFavoriteRose Posted May 13, 2017 Share Posted May 13, 2017 Just now, Rovim said: It was an obsolete joke, I've edited out, it's gimped now. I own a few books and not only ones that mostly deal with baked goods. But the short attention span is cancerous. agreed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasted Posted May 14, 2017 Share Posted May 14, 2017 I guess with fantasy/ grand narratives you need a McGuffin or something all the characters are involved in, even if they don't meet all the time. Like Lord of the Rings has the Ring, it's the mission. Not sure they use McGuffins in fantasy but in Indianna Jones they use what they are looking for as the focus. That frees you up with the characters to just let you go with whatever happens to them. Indy basically progresses towards the McGuffin the whole story. A common trick is to have the two main characters not meet until the last part of the story. They might cross paths sometimes but they have their own seperate motivations and eventually there will be a reckoning. Once you have the basic goal or mission you are then free to wank about armour and meade for pages. I would definitely map it out chapter by chapter so you know the exact story and main characters and events. Then you are free to write a chapter a day. Introduce each character, eatablish where the story is going. I think with fantasy you could just write descriptions of the characters, maps, all that shit first. Then you are just moving the pieces around the territory. The main mission is probably less important than the story arch of each character, each one has to be compelling. Star Wars is based on an old Fairytale formula that was used way back when. There was the hero and his helpers, R2 and C3. So I would guess there's loads of these formulas to use with fantasy. I wouldn't copy Star wars, go find that fairytale model or some older stories about King Arthur. But then add your own story to it. I disagree everything's been done though because you can mix and match narrative structures to create something new. What is probably true is that audiences get used to certain narratives and find satisfaction in them. So something new might not get appreciated. Personally I would want to understand the genre then mess with it. Knights in Space, ISIS, introduce AI and robots into Game of Thrones. What if the Dragon Queen was a clone? What if a virus was killing all of the Knights of the round table. The antidote could be like the ring. It would switch between Blade Runner and GOT scenes as a Knight and dwarf navigate through the war zones to deliver the antidote to this clinic where the last living scientist that can activate it is in hiding. Replicants and King Arthur's men are fighting. They both want to intercept the antidote. There are some replicants that will help and some of King Arthur's men that see the light. So these are points along the story. For me the problem would be the detail of those environments and interesting characters. Fleshing out each character to be interesting. The story would be about the battle between AI, medieval culture and superheros. Replicants wouldn't care about the virus because they are immune, Knights would be honorable but messed up by religion, if God deems we die from a virus so be it, the superheroes just want to wear capes and save the world. Sounds like a complete shitshow but it might just work. Axl knows I tried. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasted Posted May 14, 2017 Share Posted May 14, 2017 17 hours ago, AxlsFavoriteRose said: agreed! Well you know we write to what sells. Sometimes I have stoop to SEO shit. The kids think it's fresh. $ y'all. I wonder what all you literature motherfuckas want from me for my 0 cash. Well? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocknroll41 Posted May 15, 2017 Author Share Posted May 15, 2017 Just to give everyone an update: I took some of the advice on here, as well advice from some friends and youtube videos and stuff, and was able to get passed the roadblock that was preventing me from continuing to develop my story. So thanks! feel free to continue using this thread to talk about your own writings. If anyone is interested, I can keep updating on the progress of my book in this thread too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasted Posted May 15, 2017 Share Posted May 15, 2017 On 13 May 2017 at 11:59 PM, Rovim said: This is awkward. I treasure the times when I can muster enough courage to read a book once in a while. You know... finish it and everything. Always wanted to make an attempt to write a short retarded story like Del but I think maybe I need to read a lot of books first and actually have something interesting to say for the entire time before I put the shit to the fan. I don't understand how these assholes even connect all the ideas and form a viable structure, tie it all together like that. I guess it's kinda like Adler's mom. In these modern times where you can watch an M. Night Shamalyan movie at the comfort of your own S&M dungeon, books do feel a tad gimped in comparison no offense. It's not the 70's anymore, let it go. There are enough harry potter novels. Besides, virtual reality is making a comeback, just sayin'. Brutalizing my ink is the way I'd aspire it. That's kind of how I see it with fiction at least. Thrillers are like a formula with no discernable value really. Then some of the drunken wafflers like Joyce, who the fuck knows. Some of them are pushing a philosophy like Camus. Easier to just read the philosophy on wikipedia. If you don't agree with the philosophy, and that applies to Thrillers too they have an agenda to push also, retired lawyers telling you about right and wrong, so is there a value to fiction beyond saying the prose is "wonderful"? I quite like the process, putting it together, but what am I doing? I can't promote my shit like Martin Amis, sit there pontificating with interrviews about how it all has somekind of worth. I think M Night movies have straight to dvd built into them. There's a freedom to that, not the next blockbuster, just ideas he liked and a budget from the studio. If he wanted more money he'd have to change the movies. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasted Posted May 15, 2017 Share Posted May 15, 2017 24 minutes ago, rocknroll41 said: Just to give everyone an update: I took some of the advice on here, as well advice from some friends and youtube videos and stuff, and was able to get passed the roadblock that was preventing me from continuing to develop my story. So thanks! feel free to continue using this thread to talk about your own writings. If anyone is interested, I can keep updating on the progress of my book in this thread too. You can use the Robots, Knights and Superheros drinking meade in space ideas but I will sue you. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasted Posted May 15, 2017 Share Posted May 15, 2017 8 hours ago, Wagszilla said: Do or do not, there is no try. Yoda got his little green ass beat by the empire. He shoulda tried harder. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Dog Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 Stephen King's "On Writing" is a cool little tip/advice book. You can't just take everything and run with it mind you, that guy is a bestseller and been writing for 30 some years, but a lot of good advice in there nonetheless. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AxlsFavoriteRose Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 i like older Stephen King not so much his newer works. actually i am reading The Stand for the umpteenth time. i read this book every year because it so absolutely fascinating. next would be Needful Things. that is another King classic. lately i have begun writing again and as the saying goes write what you know. so that is what i am doing with some encouragement from a very great writer who is right here in our midst coughLencough On 5/14/2017 at 3:13 AM, wasted said: I guess with fantasy/ grand narratives you need a McGuffin or something all the characters are involved in, even if they don't meet all the time. Like Lord of the Rings has the Ring, it's the mission. Not sure they use McGuffins in fantasy but in Indianna Jones they use what they are looking for as the focus. That frees you up with the characters to just let you go with whatever happens to them. Indy basically progresses towards the McGuffin the whole story. A common trick is to have the two main characters not meet until the last part of the story. They might cross paths sometimes but they have their own seperate motivations and eventually there will be a reckoning. Once you have the basic goal or mission you are then free to wank about armour and meade for pages. I would definitely map it out chapter by chapter so you know the exact story and main characters and events. Then you are free to write a chapter a day. Introduce each character, eatablish where the story is going. I think with fantasy you could just write descriptions of the characters, maps, all that shit first. Then you are just moving the pieces around the territory. The main mission is probably less important than the story arch of each character, each one has to be compelling. Star Wars is based on an old Fairytale formula that was used way back when. There was the hero and his helpers, R2 and C3. So I would guess there's loads of these formulas to use with fantasy. I wouldn't copy Star wars, go find that fairytale model or some older stories about King Arthur. But then add your own story to it. I disagree everything's been done though because you can mix and match narrative structures to create something new. What is probably true is that audiences get used to certain narratives and find satisfaction in them. So something new might not get appreciated. Personally I would want to understand the genre then mess with it. Knights in Space, ISIS, introduce AI and robots into Game of Thrones. What if the Dragon Queen was a clone? What if a virus was killing all of the Knights of the round table. The antidote could be like the ring. It would switch between Blade Runner and GOT scenes as a Knight and dwarf navigate through the war zones to deliver the antidote to this clinic where the last living scientist that can activate it is in hiding. Replicants and King Arthur's men are fighting. They both want to intercept the antidote. There are some replicants that will help and some of King Arthur's men that see the light. So these are points along the story. For me the problem would be the detail of those environments and interesting characters. Fleshing out each character to be interesting. The story would be about the battle between AI, medieval culture and superheros. Replicants wouldn't care about the virus because they are immune, Knights would be honorable but messed up by religion, if God deems we die from a virus so be it, the superheroes just want to wear capes and save the world. Sounds like a complete shitshow but it might just work. Axl knows I tried. we all do sweetie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasted Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 10 hours ago, AxlsFavoriteRose said: i like older Stephen King not so much his newer works. actually i am reading The Stand for the umpteenth time. i read this book every year because it so absolutely fascinating. next would be Needful Things. that is another King classic. lately i have begun writing again and as the saying goes write what you know. so that is what i am doing with some encouragement from a very great writer who is right here in our midst coughLencough we all do sweetie I was going to get a handgun. But I didn't... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocknroll41 Posted June 1, 2017 Author Share Posted June 1, 2017 (edited) Backtracking and starting all over. Need to get better at world-building. Edited June 1, 2017 by rocknroll41 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Dog Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 42 minutes ago, rocknroll41 said: Backtracking and starting all over. Need to get better at world-building. World building, setting, those are almost impossible to nail down on the first try. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AxlsFavoriteRose Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 On 5/13/2017 at 7:49 AM, soon said: Im not a writer but I enjoy listening to writers talk about the craft. So this thread is a fun read for me. I listen to this show on the radio called Writers and Company, and here is a link to the podcasts if anyones interested. http://www.cbc.ca/radio/podcasts/arts-culture/writers-company/ One thing that I find neat is when novelists talk about characters disagreeing with the author during writing; that the author writes one thing and then the character 'says' to the author that they want to go in a different direction. And I really love the movie Stranger Than Fiction which deals with this. that movie sounds excellent! i think when a writer has a set idea then as they are writing that set idea changes entirely is fascinating! when i write it is always about my life so i don't have to worry about characters, i write what i know. i asked a close friend who has known me forever if i told a stranger all the things that have happened i my life would they believe me? and he said no! i was shocked for a moment but then i thought hey if i have had all these weird, sometimes so happy some so very challenging i don't need to write fiction! been doing this quite a bit. and it has put so much in perspective. my older brother used to read these books, way out there science fiction. granted i was about 10 when i tried to read some but they were so awful IMO! if i ever get the nerve i will post some. probably not here, i have been thinking of a blog to start with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AxlsFavoriteRose Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 On 5/15/2017 at 4:54 AM, wasted said: Yoda got his little green ass beat by the empire. He shoulda tried harder. well said! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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