"By the time we got to the chorus, Izzy was just flying out of the sofa like a Nasa rocket pumping his fist in the air" = NEW ALAN NIVEN AUG/SEP 2017 INTERVIEW On the 30 years of Appetite

[Hellgirl]

Exactly this is my biggest concern after the tour.

[marlingrl03]

14 hours ago, ludurigan said:

most of the people who were around when GNR existed are in their 40s now. very few are still on GNR forums. they have lives, jobs, wives and kids. no time for this

Wrong.  I am aging myself but who the fuck cares. I am not the only one here either who have been around since the beginning of Guns and I work FT, have a life but will *always* and I do mean always have time for "this!"  

I guess I am one of the few. There are more of us here in this forum than you think. 

[ludurigan]

10 minutes ago, marlingrl03 said:

Wrong.  I am aging myself but who the fuck cares. I am not the only one here either who have been around since the beginning of Guns and I work FT, have a life but will *always* and I do mean always have time for "this!"  

I guess I am one of the few. There are more of us here in this forum than you think. 

i am one of them too

[thunderram]

2 hours ago, ludurigan said:

well we both know rob gardner and ole beich didnt do nothing for GNR -- they are just a curious footnote

 

Maybe so. But they were in the band. And if your criteria for the band breaking up is when the first original member(s) left then the example qualifies. Otherwise you're just being selective and arbitrary.

Lots of bands have seen members change. Take the Rolling Stones for example. Mick Taylor and Ronnie Wood aren't even original members, yet very popular among fans. Does anybody ever say that the Stones broke up? There are far more examples beyond that.

 

2 hours ago, ludurigan said:

GNR was truly hurt when steven left. thankfully, axl, izzy, slash and duff were able to keep GNR being GNR with matt and dizzy during most of 1991

 

Agreed. The band was different when Steven left and different when Izzy left. But the core was still intact. Just like the Stones still having Mick Jagger and Keith Richards. While GN'R has factions of fans devoted to a particular band member(s), the average fan doesn't see it that way. As long as Axl and Slash are involved, it's Guns N' Roses. The more AFD5 members you add, the more it is legitimized, but having Axl and Slash make it enough to qualify for the majority. If that statement weren't true, the band wouldn't be receiving the interest they've been getting on tour the past 18 months.

 

2 hours ago, ludurigan said:

then izzy leftt, it was something else. the band became something else. they became a sad parody of GNR. it was irrecognizable

 

To you. But the bands popularity continued to thrive regardless. They remained among the most visible and popular bands until they stopped touring and releasing albums. They toured for quite a long time after Izzy left. Fans kept coming. That's inarguable. You may not have liked it, but it's obvious the majority didn't share your opinion.

 

2 hours ago, ludurigan said:

ask yourself, would it be GNR if, in 1991, it was Axl who had left instead of izzy?

 

No, because Axl is far more vital to the band. I've used the Stones as an example and I'll do it again. Any member of the Stones could leave aside from Mick Jagger or Keith Richards and it's different than if one of them left. The front man is typically the most important member of the band in terms of what fans go to see. More times than not, if the front man leaves a band that's already become extremely popular, that band won't remain as popular or relevant. There are notable exceptions of course (Van Halen, AC/DC, etc.), but it tends to be the case. Axl's voice and stage presence was/is a huge reason why the band was so popular. Slash's distinct sound, look and iconic solos were also a driving force. While you and I and every other hardcore fan realizes the impact Izzy, Duff and Steven had, those band members are largely invisible to the masses. That's the cold hard truth.

Edited October 1, 2017 by thunderram

[dontdamnmeuyi2015]

I would actually love to see Izzy that animated.

In Slash, Steven and Duff's books, Izzy was always described as the mellow one. He would disappear for days sometimes weeks at a time and not tell anyone where he went or if/when he was coming back.

I guess he could have gotten excited by some of GNR's songs, since they all were so amazing, but I find it hard to believe Izzy showing so much emotion back in the early days or even now.

[Tonto]

18 hours ago, ludurigan said:

 

oh yeah, you are correct, thats exactly where i pulled that from

let me pull some more stuff for ya

most of the people who were around when GNR existed are in their 40s now. very few are still on GNR forums. they have lives, jobs, wives and kids. no time for this

the die-hards from the GNR-era are long gone. John M stopped updating his site a decade ago. All the old websites are gone. Very few people left from that era.

the people who are in forums like this forum are mostly younger.

ask the mods, they will tell you that

probably the majority is 15-35 years old, and probably most are 20-30 years olds.

people under 26 werent even ALIVE when GNR broke up

people who now are 34 were EIGHT years old when GNR broke up

most of the people who fell in love with GNR 1992-2000 (before the 2001 axl solo comeback) did so via nonsense post-GNR shows like Japan 1992 and Paris 1992, via nonsense crap november rain video etc etc etc

then a lot of people found GNR through axl solo career

hey nothing wrong with that

except that all of that (1992, axl solo career etc) has very little to do with GNR

 

It all had very little to do with GN'R except for, you know, being GN'R.

You are wasting your time with posts like these.

[ludurigan]

3 hours ago, Tonto said:

It all had very little to do with GN'R except for, you know, being GN'R.

You are wasting your time with posts like these.

yeah i truly dont know why i keep pulling this shit out of my ass

what impressed me the most on your reply were the strong arguments that truly made me change completely what i thought about GNR

i have no idea where you pulled such strongs arguments from -- but hey, its sure no waste of time to read them!

[ludurigan]

6 hours ago, thunderram said:

No, because Axl is far more vital to the band.

thats is your opinion

that must be because you like GNR, but you like axl better

my opinion is that axl, izzy and slash are vital to the band

you see, i like axl, but i like GNR much more

[Tonto]

52 minutes ago, ludurigan said:

yeah i truly dont know why i keep pulling this shit out of my ass

what impressed me the most on your reply were the strong arguments that truly made me change completely what i thought about GNR

i have no idea where you pulled such strongs arguments from -- but hey, its sure no waste of time to read them!

I'm not presenting an argument against your last post, I don't care about forum demographics especially when you just made them all up. Come back with some facts and we can talk.

[ludurigan]

15 hours ago, Tonto said:

I'm not presenting an argument against your last post, I don't care about forum demographics especially when you just made them all up. Come back with some facts and we can talk.

oh, no, please dont say goodbye! please keep replying my post and blowing my mind with your surprisingly fresh point of view, your great facts and your strong arguments! you completely changed my mind on all things GNR! and now i want more!

[thunderram]

On 10/1/2017 at 6:07 PM, ludurigan said:

thats is your opinion

that must be because you like GNR, but you like axl better

my opinion is that axl, izzy and slash are vital to the band

you see, i like axl, but i like GNR much more

Is it really just my opinion? Or do we have evidence that essentially proves that's the case? Izzy wasn't involved with the band for most of the UYI tour. But the tour didn't suffer. Izzy hasn't been involved in what's been going on the past 18 months and, again, the tour isn't suffering. When Slash wasn't involved with GN'R from 2000 through 2015, the band wasn't near as successful as it has been the past 18 months.

Again, I'm not arguing Izzy's importance in writing and recording the albums or his unique sound. We hardcore fans all realize how important each of 5 really were. I'm simply saying that Izzy's presence isn't close to as vital to the average fan as Axl and Slash. I don't really understand on what basis you can argue against that.

Lastly, you're just assuming I'm more fond of AXL simply because you don't agree. But it has nothing to do with any bias. It is just simple recognition of the truth.

Edited October 3, 2017 by thunderram

[ludurigan]

2 hours ago, thunderram said:

Izzy wasn't involved with the band for most of the UYI tour. But the tour didn't suffer. Izzy hasn't been involved in what's been going on the past 18 months and, again, the tour isn't suffering.

Again, I'm not arguing Izzy's importance in writing and recording the albums or his unique sound. We hardcore fans all realize how important each of 5 really were. I'm simply saying that Izzy's presence isn't close to as vital to the average fan as Axl and Slash. I don't really understand on what basis you can argue against that.

Lastly, you're just assuming I'm more fond of AXL simply because you don't agree. But it has nothing to do with any bias. It is just simple recognition of the truth.

the tours didnt suffer? and you call yourself a hardcore fan? if you cant HEAR the difference between izzy guitar and the aliens (gilby and the new guy) there is no point in discussing GNR at all! if you think it was all good with the sound of the band without izzy, and if you cant notice how SHITTY this band sounds without izzy, then i cant do nothing for you!

oh, and if you are measuring the tour by how "sucessfull" it is, or by how the "average fan" perceives it, then maybe we should talk u2 or one direction -- they do huge tours, and they are very succesfull amongst the average fans!

 

Edited October 3, 2017 by ludurigan

[SoulMonster]

Regarding the ongoing heated discussion about Izzy's importance. Here's the humble opinion of a man who became a fan in '87 and lost his interest in GN'R during the '90s. I have listed the main reasons why I lost interest, in prioritized order:

1. Use Your Illusions were too disjuncted and messy. AFD was a strong record where the songs went together. It was unison in its style and presentation. UYIs were sprawling, lacked unison and presented a band not sure of its musical path. Although there were great songs there, really great, the music, and hence the band, was starting to unravel. It was harder for me as a fan to hang onto it, because it started to go in all directions. 

2. The UYI tour was too bloated and ridiculous. If you became a fan of the simplicity of AFD, of 5 guys playing the music they wrote, then the first part of the UYI touring was a bit hard to grasp. And stylistically, just as the music had started to go in all kinds of direction, the band members also started to grow apart. They weren't the same guys as back in the 80's, literally, but they also didn't look like them. Although the playing was still good, it just didn't have the aesthetics of the band back in its club days. A show in '88 was vastly a different experience to a show in '92.

3. Beloved members were gone. New members came in, Teddy, Dizzy, Gilby, etc, while "my guys", Steven and Izzy, were gone. It was simply harder to relate to the new members because, well, you didn't know them as much, and many of them hadn't even contributed to the music. It felt less like "Guns N' Roses". 

4. Lack of new music. The music scene was changing and GN'R started to become dated. To prevent that they should have been more productive in the 90s. Released more music. For me, as a big music fan, I needed new music and naturally started to listen to anything brand new and modern. And hence, when listening back to GN'R, it sounded slightly out of touch.

So for me, it wasn't the disappearance of Izzy that ruined things, but all of these four reasons combined and mostly due to changes in musical direction and less a feel of a united band and more a feel of just guys playing together from a business decision. Sure, I loved Izzy's playing on AFD, but the UYIs still contained killer guitar work, and I didn't really miss Izzy from the live shows, expect that he was somewhat cooler looking than Gilby. The main thing was, and is, that the band wasn't a proper band anymore to me, and that they deviated from the music style of AFD and instead decided to go in all kinds of directions at the same time.

I have no problems with people having other reasons for losing interest after AFD5 broke down, or, on the other hand, for first enjoying the band as the UYI lineups formed. We are all different and there is no right or wrong answer here, regardless of what other passionate members may try to say

 

 

Edited October 3, 2017 by SoulMonster

[thunderram]

21 hours ago, ludurigan said:

the tours didnt suffer? and you call yourself a hardcore fan? if you cant HEAR the difference between izzy guitar and the aliens (gilby and the new guy) there is no point in discussing GNR at all! if you think it was all good with the sound of the band without izzy, and if you cant notice how SHITTY this band sounds without izzy, then i cant do nothing for you!

oh, and if you are measuring the tour by how "sucessfull" it is, or by how the "average fan" perceives it, then maybe we should talk u2 or one direction -- they do huge tours, and they are very succesfull amongst the average fans!

 

 

See, now you're taking the discussion down a completely different path. Of course I'm talking about the success and popularity of the tour. I love the original 5 and their sound as much as you do. And if given a choice of which lineup I'd wanna see, I'd choose the same as you. So of course I'm not arguing sound with you.

The topic was about which band members were most vital when it comes to fan interest and success of the band on tour. As I stated twice already, you and I and every hardcore fan understands the importance of each of the 5 when it comes to the sound they developed and the songs they wrote. That's not up for debate. But when it comes to the average fan and the majority's interest in seeing the band perform, Izzy's participation is nowhere near as important as AXL and Slash. They are the Mick and Keith of Guns N' Roses.

Edited October 4, 2017 by thunderram

[ludurigan]

29 minutes ago, thunderram said:

 

See, now you're taking the discussion down a completely different path. Of course I'm talking about the success and popularity of the tour. I love the original 5 and their sound as much as you do. And if given a choice of which lineup I'd wanna see, I'd choose the same as you. So of course I'm not arguing sound with you.

The topic was about which band members were most vital when it comes to fan interest and success of the band on tour. As I stated twice already, you and I and every hardcore fan understands the importance of each of the 5 when it comes to the sound they developed and the songs they wrote. That's not up for debate. But when it comes to the average fan and the majories interest in seeing the band perform, Izzy's participation is nowhere near as important as AXL and Slash. They are the Mick and Keith of Guns N' Roses.

yeah, like i told you, we should discuss u2, coldplay and whatever popular act instead of GNR if thats what counts

[JoeyBananaduck]

That's about the stupidest argument I ever did see. No offense mate, but with that amount of shit coming out of your mouth your bumhole must be feeling a bit neglected.

Edited October 4, 2017 by JoeyBananaduck

[ludurigan]

16 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

1. Use Your Illusions were too disjuncted and messy. AFD was a strong record where the songs went together. It was unison in its style and presentation. UYIs were sprawling, lacked unison and presented a band not sure of its musical path. Although there were great songs there, really great, the music, and hence the band, was starting to unravel. It was harder for me as a fan to hang onto it, because it started to go in all directions. 

2. The UYI tour was too bloated and ridiculous. If you became a fan of the simplicity of AFD, of 5 guys playing the music they wrote, then the first part of the UYI touring was a bit hard to grasp. And stylistically, just as the music had started to go in all kinds of direction, the band members also started to grow apart. They weren't the same guys as back in the 80's, literally, but they also didn't look like them. Although the playing was still good, it just didn't have the aesthetics of the band back in its club days. A show in '88 was vastly a different experience to a show in '92.

3. Beloved members were gone. New members came in, Teddy, Dizzy, Gilby, etc, while "my guys", Steven and Izzy, were gone. It was simply harder to relate to the new members because, well, you didn't know them as much, and many of them hadn't even contributed to the music. It felt less like "Guns N' Roses". 

4. Lack of new music. The music scene was changing and GN'R started to become dated. To prevent that they should have been more productive in the 90s. Released more music. For me, as a big music fan, I needed new music and naturally started to listen to anything brand new and modern. And hence, when listening back to GN'R, it sounded slightly out of touch.

So for me, it wasn't the disappearance of Izzy that ruined things, but all of these four reasons combined and mostly due to changes in musical direction and less a feel of a united band and more a feel of just guys playing together from a business decision. Sure, I loved Izzy's playing on AFD, but the UYIs still contained killer guitar work, and I didn't really miss Izzy from the live shows, expect that he was somewhat cooler looking than Gilby. The main thing was, and is, that the band wasn't a proper band anymore to me, and that they deviated from the music style of AFD and instead decided to go in all kinds of directions at the same time.

I have no problems with people having other reasons for losing interest after AFD5 broke down, or, on the other hand, for first enjoying the band as the UYI lineups formed. We are all different and there is no right or wrong answer here, regardless of what other passionate members may try to say

very good analysis

keep in mind that 2 (pathetic bloated tour), 3 (members gone) and 4 (lack of new music) would likely not have happened if izzy was onboard and had a say on things like he used to have in the beginning. one of the reasons izzy left is because axl and slash sorta hijacked GNR on the illusion era and izzy stopped having a say on things (izzy admits he was partially to blame for alienating himself from the band).

some questions...

was the 1992 circus a smoke screen for the absence of key members izzy and steven?

would izzy agree with that pathetic 1992 circus of tracy, roberta, zig zag and all the rest? or would izzy have prefered to keep things simple?

did izzy have any say on the hiring of matt sorum -- or was it slash's and duff's idea?

did izzy have any say on the hiring of dizzy reed -- or was it axl's (and only axl's) -- idea?

would the band suffer from lack of new music if izzy was still on board?

[SoulMonster]

3 hours ago, ludurigan said:

was the 1992 circus a smoke screen for the absence of key members izzy and steven?

would izzy agree with that pathetic 1992 circus of tracy, roberta, zig zag and all the rest? or would izzy have prefered to keep things simple?

did izzy have any say on the hiring of matt sorum -- or was it slash's and duff's idea?

did izzy have any say on the hiring of dizzy reed -- or was it axl's (and only axl's) -- idea?

would the band suffer from lack of new music if izzy was still on board?

I don't think it was a smoke screen, I think it was the direction Axl wanted the band to head in. One of the reasons Izzy left was disagreeing with this direction. Axl would probably have agreed to tone the bloatedness down if that would have meant Izzy would remain in the band, and even compromise on music and lineup, etc, but Izzy left for other reasons too, so it becomes moot. Izzy left and that allowed the band to develop without his opinions. 

[ludurigan]

1 hour ago, SoulMonster said:

I don't think it was a smoke screen, I think it was the direction Axl wanted the band to head in. One of the reasons Izzy left was disagreeing with this direction. Axl would probably have agreed to tone the bloatedness down if that would have meant Izzy would remain in the band, and even compromise on music and lineup, etc, but Izzy left for other reasons too, so it becomes moot. Izzy left and that allowed the band to develop without his opinions. 

I guess axl and slash hijacked the band *while izzy was in the band* and somehow forced the band to go to other directions (musically and in other senses too) that izzy didnt wanna have much to do with -- and that was one of the apparently many reasons he left.

when he left, axl and slash were free to do as they pleased and that included the bloated circus, the lack of new music (axl decided slash songs werent good enough and vice versa) etc etc etc

[default_]

11 hours ago, ludurigan said:

was the 1992 circus a smoke screen for the absence of key members izzy and steven?

would izzy agree with that pathetic 1992 circus of tracy, roberta, zig zag and all the rest? or would izzy have prefered to keep things simple?

did izzy have any say on the hiring of matt sorum -- or was it slash's and duff's idea?

did izzy have any say on the hiring of dizzy reed -- or was it axl's (and only axl's) -- idea?

would the band suffer from lack of new music if izzy was still on board?

Nop, dont think it was a smoke screen and I strongly believe it was decided while Izzy was still onboard. Knowing how much of a Stones fan Izzy was, I believe he was Ok with the additional musicians as they all have a purpose on the sound of the band at the time and theres a chance he bought the in. But it wasnt only Axl, it was a band effort. Dont forget Izzy is the composer for Move To The City and it already had a horns section on it.

Dizzy was Axl's idea but Izzy was the only one who backed it up 'cause he knew a keyboard would be a good addition to the sound of the band, he even had one in JuJu Hounds.

Matt was Slash thing and I dont think any other member had a say on it, Slash was a metal guy and liked the precison and technical effort Matt would bring.

If the band would suffer from the lack of new music had Izzy stayed? I think it would be the same. Axl would still have daddy issues, Slash would be wasted, Duff's pancreas would explode... Izzy tryed to get back to do a new album, twice as we know, it was useless as music wasnt the priority anymore.

Edited October 4, 2017 by default_

[ludurigan]

15 minutes ago, default_ said:

I strongly believe it was decided while Izzy was still onboard. But it wasnt only Axl, it was a band effort.

Dizzy was Axl's idea but Izzy was the only one who backed it up 'cause he knew a keyboard would be a good addition to the sound of the band, he even had one in JuJu Hounds.

Matt was Slash thing and I dont think any other member had a say on it, Slash was a metal guy and liked the precison and technical effort Matt would bring.

If the band would suffer from the lack of new music had Izzy stayed? I think it would be the same. Axl would still have daddy issues, Slash would be wasted, Duff's pancreas would explode... Izzy tryed to get back to do a new album, twice as we know, it was useless as music wasnt the priority anymore.

you should read some GNR interviews... the things you are saying make no sense at all given all the info available

its pretty likely dizzy was pushed down the throath of EVERYONE in GNR

its pretty likely Izzy would like to keep 5 guys playing rock n roll instead of a circus

its pretty likely axl had a say on Matt Sorum -- do you REALLY think Axl wouldnt have a say on it, specially given the fact that one of the reasons steven was replaced is because Axl was looking for a drummer that could play more "epic" stuff on his songs?

[default_]

5 minutes ago, ludurigan said:

you should read some GNR interviews... the things you are saying make no sense at all given all the info available

its pretty likely dizzy was pushed down the throath of EVERYONE in GNR

its pretty likely Izzy would like to keep 5 guys playing rock n roll instead of a circus

its pretty likely axl had a say on Matt Sorum -- do you REALLY think Axl wouldnt have a say on it, specially given the fact that one of the reasons steven was replaced is because Axl was looking for a drummer that could play more "epic" stuff on his songs?

I think you should also read and watch some too.
Dizzy was Axl thing and everyone freaked out at first but Izzy was the first and only one to understand that it could be a nice addition, theres a video interview where Izzy himself says he could see the uses for someone playing keys.

Theres no "circus", its way more roots Rock N' Roll and Izzy is into it. If he was ok with it in GNR is not clearly, but I (me) believe he was ok with that as he was (still is) a fan of that kind of music. Again, Move to the City as exemple.

On the Matt thing, Oh, ok! I tought you were talkin especially about Matt, and not any other technical drummer. Cause as reports say Slash met Matt before.

[ll_tj1]

On 10/1/2017 at 7:06 AM, MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle said:

You sure about that?  I'm one of the old fogies and I don't remember them being more popular 92. In fact, I remember that's when Guns started falling off mainstream's radar.  I remember the Settle sound started gearing up before then, (I bought Pearl Jam's Even Flow on cassingle in 92 I think) and by 93 was in full swing. By mid 92 Guns was not the 'cool' band anymore.  Obviously, I've got my own personal point of reference for this (I;m thinking of student parties I went to during those years and what was playing at the time) so maybe it was different in other countries where Guns' popularity lasted a bit longer.

Im 46, and saw GNR when they opened for Aerosmith. And clearly remember, they were still HUGE in 1992, starting to drop a bit in 1993. But pretty much maintained there popularity popularity similar to that of Metallica for several years after. There was the grunge movement (other than Pearl Jam and Nirvana) that came and went by in the blink of an eye, but none of those bands got as big for as long as GNR. And there still a huge draw. Ths only thing that stop the GNR train was GNR themselves. I live in the United States so maybe you're from a different country. Not sure, just sayin'.

[Sydney Fan]

I remember reading interviews with Izzy when he left the band and I remember him saying the band had gotten so big it was no longer fun anymore. Add to this the no shows, riots then I understand why he would have left.

[Izzymacbeth]

I also think Izzy would have been fine with Tracy and Roberta et al. You guys may not know this but the backing singers (The famous Waters family) on the Illusion II version of Knockin On Heavens Door are also featured on Ju Ju Hounds' Come On Now Inside. 

Also with regards to Dizzy Reed, I think Izzy was fine. Having keyboards is VERY rock n roll. Again on Izzys records he has Nicky Hopkins from The Stones and Ian McLagan from The Faces all over his stuff. Keys aren't very metal or punk so Slash and Duff were much less comfortable. Izzy on the other hand used keyboards and female choir vocals a lot and even had guest mandolin players during Ju Ju Hounds tour. Very, very Rolling Stones. 

Edited October 5, 2017 by Izzymacbeth