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The unhealthy American patriotism


SoulMonster

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38 minutes ago, soon said:

I'll start minding my own business about the States when the USA starts minding its own business!  I'll stop commenting on the reality of how much they impact the world when they stop having such a huge, damaging impact on the word!

And you see poor neighbourhoods, people who will never get out of medical debt, whose entire households are nothing more than meat for the capitalist dogs, proudly flying the flag on each porch.

Go on then, I'm intrigued...outline in as much detail as you can the direct damaging effect that America has had on your day to day life.

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58 minutes ago, soon said:

I'll start minding my own business about the States when the USA starts minding its own business!  I'll stop commenting on the reality of how much they impact the world when they stop having such a huge, damaging impact on the word!

And you see poor neighbourhoods, people who will never get out of medical debt, whose entire households are nothing more than meat for the capitalist dogs, proudly flying the flag on each porch.

Only an American can understand why we are so proud to fly our flag. I find it funny that non Americans give a flying fuck how Americans feel about America.

 

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1 hour ago, soon said:

I'll start minding my own business about the States when the USA starts minding its own business!  I'll stop commenting on the reality of how much they impact the world when they stop having such a huge, damaging impact on the word!

And you see poor neighbourhoods, people who will never get out of medical debt, whose entire households are nothing more than meat for the capitalist dogs, proudly flying the flag on each porch.

we have the USA damaging the world, and we have americans wrapping babies in american flags.

big difference, and it's not an academic one. american citizens should not be treated different just because their country is an imperialistic nightmare.

criticise USA foreign policy as much as you like, hell i'll even join you, but let US citizens celebrate their flags and sing the national anthem. it all looks pretty harmless from where i'm standing.

 

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8 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

You don't see a problem with the patriotism as described in the article? 

I think the author is using a handful of extreme quotes attacking the photographer for shock value.

Although it could be considered desicration of the flag, I don't think the majority of Americans would take that much offense to it.  Sure, there may be that 10% or so that are "old school" that would...but the majority are probably indifferent to something like this. 

Anyone that's ever been to the beach in the U.S. has seen people wearing bathing suits, bathing trunks, towels, chairs, bandanas, etc decorated with the American flag.  If everyone took that much offense to it, we would see fights erupt everyday over it.  It's simply not the case and unrealistic to think so.

 

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1 hour ago, soon said:

I'll start minding my own business about the States when the USA starts minding its own business!  I'll stop commenting on the reality of how much they impact the world when they stop having such a huge, damaging impact on the word!

And you see poor neighbourhoods, people who will never get out of medical debt, whose entire households are nothing more than meat for the capitalist dogs, proudly flying the flag on each porch.

The U.S. isn't perfect but its impact on the world throughout history has been much more positive than negative.  I find it rich that a Canadian would criticize U.S. foreign policy when it's the main reason Canada is safe and doesn't need a very strong military of its own.

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15 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

I think the author is using a handful of extreme quotes attacking the photographer for shock value.

Although it could be considered desicration of the flag, I don't think the majority of Americans would take that much offense to it.  Sure, there may be that 10% or so that are "old school" that would...but the majority are probably indifferent to something like this. 

Anyone that's ever been to the beach in the U.S. has seen people wearing bathing suits, bathing trunks, towels, chairs, bandanas, etc decorated with the American flag.  If everyone took that much offense to it, we would see fights erupt everyday over it.  It's simply not the case and unrealistic to think so.

 

The author doesn't care about the flag controversy, he is just using it as an example of the hostile environment. He also has no problems with normal patriotism, saying that it "nurtures a sense of unity and common values".

But he is worried by the today's patriotism in the US which he claims has "become increasingly zealous, immune to critical thinking, and unquestioningly militaristic" and that a "staggering lack of knowledge, combined with a blind and emotional patriotism, is a formula for disaster. The result is a proliferation of uninformed American exceptionalism that is akin to a social narcissism, a self-centered sense of importance and superiority that can have dire consequences." Furthermore, he uses the example of the 2003 Iraq invasion as a result of this patriotism: "Consider that when America marched to war in Iraq in 2003, driven by an unstoppable wave of patriotism and militarism [...]. And we continue to see the effects of misguided patriotism play out in the state of affairs in the country. Today’s divisive political arena and dysfunctional government are the natural result of a system that responds to such uninformed and hyper-patriotic demographics."

So again, you don't agree with the author on this point and see nothing wrong with American patriotism?

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1 hour ago, Len Cnut said:

Because the mind your own business comment came from me and that post was specific regarding the day to day life bit.

okay, fair enough.  I was inspired by your post, but not responding to it.  And sure, the export of American style bigotry to influence and fuel Canada style bigotry is one way it effects my day to day life.

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1 minute ago, SoulMonster said:

The author doesn't care about the flag controversy, he is just using it as an example of the hostile environment. He also has no problems with normal patriotism, saying that it "nurtures a sense of unity and common values".

But he is worried by the today's patriotism in the US which he claims has "become increasingly zealous, immune to critical thinking, and unquestioningly militaristic" and that a "staggering lack of knowledge, combined with a blind and emotional patriotism, is a formula for disaster. The result is a proliferation of uninformed American exceptionalism that is akin to a social narcissism, a self-centered sense of importance and superiority that can have dire consequences." Furthermore, he uses the example of the 2003 Iraq invasion as a result of this patriotism: "Consider that when America marched to war in Iraq in 2003, driven by an unstoppable wave of patriotism and militarism [...]. And we continue to see the effects of misguided patriotism play out in the state of affairs in the country. Today’s divisive political arena and dysfunctional government are the natural result of a system that responds to such uninformed and hyper-patriotic demographics."

So again, you don't agree with the author on this point and see nothing wrong with American patriotism?

Again, I think he is overstating it. 

The majority of Americans were against the Iraq War at the time and now, the vast majority of Americans believe it was a huge mistake....among the biggest mistakes in U.S. history.  So if anything, it's the complete opposite of what the author is implying...Americans are growing wiser.

Like I said, is there a segment of the population that acts and feels the way the author implies?  Sure there is...but it's the minority. 

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17 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

The U.S. isn't perfect but its impact on the world throughout history has been much more positive than negative. 

That's a tough claim. US' intervention in the Middle East has been absolutely horrendous. Really, really astonishingly catastrophic. And the whole cold war was a disaster for numerous countries that were treated as pawns in the larger strategic game between USSR and USA. The US has also done lots of bad in South America. The only good think I can think of right now must be US' role in WWII, and the Marshall Help, but as we know, US decision to enter that war first came as a response to Pearl Harbour, and not because they wanted to help Europe. So it was a selfish act born out of revenge and self-protection.

I am sure I miss many things. So what else has US done for other countries that has been good, or bad?

 

1 hour ago, Fitha_whiskey said:

Only an American can understand why we are so proud to fly our flag. I find it funny that non Americans give a flying fuck how Americans feel about America.

 

Because American patriotism can be used to fuel wars and foreign policies that affect us?

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1 hour ago, Fitha_whiskey said:

Only an American can understand why we are so proud to fly our flag. I find it funny that non Americans give a flying fuck how Americans feel about America.

 

You say "we" but you arent speaking for all Americans.  Plenty of you hate America it and its flag. 

I care about the starving and sick everywhere.  :shrugs:

 

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1 hour ago, action said:

we have the USA damaging the world, and we have americans wrapping babies in american flags.

big difference, and it's not an academic one. american citizens should not be treated different just because their country is an imperialistic nightmare.

criticise USA foreign policy as much as you like, hell i'll even join you, but let US citizens celebrate their flags and sing the national anthem. it all looks pretty harmless from where i'm standing.

 

It was hyper patriots who were pissed off about the flag baby, and in same article there are reasons given for how that type of ultra patriotism fuels and allows for US foreign policy.  Do you disagree with the article?

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28 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

The U.S. isn't perfect but its impact on the world throughout history has been much more positive than negative.  I find it rich that a Canadian would criticize U.S. foreign policy when it's the main reason Canada is safe and doesn't need a very strong military of its own.

One of the many lofty claims here is that since Canada hasn't been duped by the MIC I shouldnt criticize its war mongering and crimes against humanity.  Explain that logic?

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3 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

Again, I think he is overstating it. 

The majority of Americans were against the Iraq War at the time and now, the vast majority of Americans believe it was a huge mistake....among the biggest mistakes in U.S. history.  So if anything, it's the complete opposite of what the author is implying...Americans are growing wiser.

Like I said, is there a segment of the population that acts and feels the way the author implies?  Sure there is...but it's the minority. 

It might be a minority but still large enough to be a power block when it comes to politics, just look at the presidency of Trump who was to a large extent elected because of his strong "America first" promises that are directly catering to this hardline American patriotism. The very fact that US could invade Iraq in 2003 is also due to a large fraction of US citizens accepting it. And so on. 

It might be that the author is overstating it, as you claim, but from reading his article and then your trivializing of the issue and exclaiming that "patriotism is great", makes me think that he knows what he is talking about.

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1 minute ago, SoulMonster said:

That's a tough claim. US' intervention in the Middle East has been absolutely horrendous. Really, really astonishingly catastrophic. And the whole cold war was a disaster for numerous countries that were treated as pawns in the larger strategic game between USSR and USA. The US has also done lots of bad in South America. The only good think I can think of right now must be US' role in WWII, and the Marshall Help, but as we know, US decision to enter that war first came as a response to Pearl Harbour, and not because they wanted to help Europe. So it was a selfish act born out of revenge and self-protection.

I am sure I miss many things. So what else has US done for other countries that has been good, or bad?

 

Smh.  As far as the middle East goes, it's debatable.  Was the Iraq War a mistake ? Yes.  Was the previous Iraq War...Desert Storm a mistake?  Obviously not.  And if you think so, go tell that to Kuwait.  

The U.S. did exactly what we needed to to in the Cold War...and it lead to the dissolution of the USSR.  Huge win for the West and only a socialist would think otherwise.  You are absolutely wrong there. 

As far as WWII goes, to think the US. got involved because of greed is absolutely asinine and disrespectful to the enourmous sacrifice we made.

For a Norweigian to spout this sort of nonsense is laughable.  What good has Norway done for the world in modern history? Other than staying out of things and hoping that the UK and the US take care of things for them? 

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25 minutes ago, soon said:

okay, fair enough.  I was inspired by your post, but not responding to it.  And sure, the export of American style bigotry to influence and fuel Canada style bigotry is one way it effects my day to day life.

How has it effected your life?  Also thats not direct, thats convoluted and its kinda blaming America for Canadas bigotry, letting one of the hook and coming down hard on the other, that doesn't count as a direct damaging effect they have on your day to day life.

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1 hour ago, Fitha_whiskey said:

Only an American can understand why we are so proud to fly our flag. I find it funny that non Americans give a flying fuck how Americans feel about America.

 

Yeah I don't see why someone who doesn't live here and not be around it in their life, can get their panties in such a bunch over it and so caught up in it. It's not even a big deal in actual American life, some people are big into patriotic stuff, so what.

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1 minute ago, Kasanova King said:

Smh.  As far as the middle East goes, it's debatable.  Was the Iraq War a mistake ? Yes.  Was the previous Iraq War...Desert Storm a mistake?  Obviously not.  And if you think so, go tell that to Kuwait.  

The U.S. did exactly what we needed to to in the Cold War...and it lead to the dissolution of the USSR.  Huge win for the West and only a socialist would think otherwise.  You are absolutely wrong there. 

As far as WWII goes, to think the US. got involved because of greed is absolutely asinine and disrespectful to the enourmous sacrifice we made.

For a Norweigian to spout this sort of nonsense is laughable.  What good has Norway done for the world in modern history? Other than staying out of things and hoping that the UK and the US take care of things for them? 

It is debatable what the effect of US interaction with the Middle East has been? Really? :lol: Was it good for the Middle East when UK and USA started to take all their oil in the late 19 and early 20th centuries, leaving just small royalties to the fledgling countries? Was it good for the region when US started to support leaders who would continue the tradition of giving US cheap oil, even when said leaders were treating their people awfully? Was it good for the people when said leaders would receive weapons and training to be able to fight down any uprisings? Was it good for the region when US continued the policy of supporting leaders, but this time those that would be pro-US or anti-USSR? Even to the extent of helping to supporting Saddam Hussein and training bin Laden? Was all this meddling in the region caused by US wanting oil and to thwart USSR which caused constant instable states and countless problems for citizens, good for the region? Really?

Not so sure things would have been worse if USSR had been able to control more countries. USSR collapsed by itself eventually. Don't think things would have been much different, really. The whole danger of the USSR is a peculiar US' hysteria. Not saying USSR was any good, just that the danger of it taking over the world is greatly exaggerated by USA.

Greed? I never said US got involved out of greed. I said they got involved only when they were first attacked. It was a selfish act of protection and revenge, not greed.

You can't expect any small country to have an equally large affect on the world as a large country, whether good or bad. That being said, luckily Norway has never really been large enough to join the imperialistic game of the larger players, and hence we also have a cleaner conscience. And, fortunately, Norway has become an important diplomatic nation trying to act as go-betweens, neutral territory, and peace negotiators in many conflicts, the Oslo Agreement and the Peace in Sri Lanka as noteworthy examples. 

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13 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

It might be a minority but still large enough to be a power block when it comes to politics, just look at the presidency of Trump who was to a large extent elected because of his strong "America first" promises that are directly catering to this hardline American patriotism. The very fact that US could invade Iraq in 2003 is also due to a large fraction of US citizens accepting it. And so on. 

It might be that the author is overstating it, as you claim, but from reading his article and then your trivializing of the issue and exclaiming that "patriotism is great", makes me think that he knows what he is talking about.

Patriotism is great.  Radical Nationalism is not.  Unfortunately, a lot of people don't understand the difference..which seems to be the case with you.

 

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

How has it effected your life?  Also thats not direct, thats convoluted and its kinda blaming America for Canadas bigotry, letting one of the hook and coming down hard on the other, that doesn't count as a direct damaging effect they have on your day to day life.

I dont think you re in a position to say whether it is or isnt.  And also re-read what I said.

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16 minutes ago, soon said:

It was hyper patriots who were pissed off about the flag baby, and in same article there are reasons given for how that type of ultra patriotism fuels and allows for US foreign policy.  Do you disagree with the article?

there will always be people who are pissed off about anything they might find offence with.

i didnt read the article, nor do i intend to, but i can safely say that i find it a bit far-fetched to say US foreign policy is fueled by what regular joe does in his frontgarden. if that is the message of the article then yes i disagree with it.

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Just now, Kasanova King said:

Patriotism is great.  Radical Nationalism is not.  Unfortunately, a lot of people don't understand the difference..which seems to be the case with you.

There doesn't have to be a difference, it really depends on how extreme one is in one's patriotism. If you have read the article, you will notice that the author talks about the more extreme form of patriotism that has become more and more the norm in recent years. It could very well be that this can also be referred to as "radical nationalism".

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1 minute ago, action said:

there will always be people who are pissed off about anything they might find offence with.

i didnt read the article, nor do i intend to, but i can safely say that i find it a bit far-fetched to say US foreign policy is fueled by what regular joe does in his frontgarden. if that is the message of the article then yes i disagree with it.

US policy can be influenced, and has been influenced, by strong feelings of patriotism that, yes, will also result in an obsession with the American flag. Surely this can't be considered inconceivable?

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