SoulMonster Posted November 10, 2017 Author Share Posted November 10, 2017 What I will say, though, is that USA did pay for large infrastructure improvements in various countries in the Middle East, as bribes to leaders to keep doing what the US wanted. Middle Eastern leaders cleverly played both sides (US and USSR) to see who would pay them the most. In fact, they didn't even hide this game, even directly expressing how much they had been promised from one side to be promised more from the other. For most part this only lined there pockets and didn't really benefit the people much. It also led to the loyalties of Middle Eastern countries going back and forth between US and USSR as each would promise the countries something even better than the other. A despicable game where no one was a saint. Of course USA came to regret this later. Both because it had helped build infrastructure they later didn't think so fondly of, like Iranian nuclear programs (which they have later frantically tried to stop and sabotage), and because that during this process they armed and trained groups that would later turn against USA (like men who would later be part of Al-Qaida and Taliban, as well as Saddam Hussain). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace Nova Posted November 10, 2017 Share Posted November 10, 2017 3 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: This is highly debatable. US interferred in the Middle East to maintain control required to both have good oil process and to monitor USSR and reduce their influence. In doing this they would support any political leader regardless of what their overall policies were. They happily supported and instilled horrible people as long as it furthered their overall objectives. They even helped throw down good leaders if they weren't sufficiently supportive of US' goals. One example of this is US' support of the Shah in Iran. He was a horrible man who mistreated his people, but he was willing to take US' bribes to support their agenda. This ultimately led to very strong anti-USA and anti-Shah movements in the country which culminated in the Islamic Revolution of '79 with Ayatollah Khomeini as the new leader. I probably don't have to tell you what awful results this had on women in the region. Likewise, USA supported extremist islamists in Afghanistan when they fought the invading Russian armies, ultimately resulting in the raise of Taliban and the current suppression of female rights in that region. So no, USA has NOT been a factor of good for the Middle East's women. Not at all. Also look at Saudi Arabia which USA accepts mistreating its women as long as it remains a strong ally to USA. Maybe you should stop thinking because it is obviously not helping you much and start reading? lol Maybe you need to start reading. Not everything the US has done in the middle East is perfect. Things done during the Cold War era were done to keep Russia in check. War is war. The overall effect of the US and UK presence in the area though has been more positive than negative. Look at Africa as an example. Look at the countries there with little to no US or UK presence throughout history. Many are ruled by ruthless overlords who's regimes rape and pillage their own people. Most of the Middle East would be the same way if it weren't for Western presence there. And I'll ask you this again. Why don't you include the UK when you talk about Middle Eastern imperialism? Maybe because it doesn't fit with your agenda of blaming everything on the US? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted November 10, 2017 Author Share Posted November 10, 2017 Just now, Len Cnut said: You’re talking about foreign policy, I was talking about flags in front gardens and patriotism. The point is that patriotism helps support certain foreign policies. If it weren't for the more extreme pariotism certain politicians would never be elected and hence that would influence foreign policies that does affect our lives. Just look to Vote and his rise by catering to "America First" voters. These things are ultimately connected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted November 10, 2017 Share Posted November 10, 2017 Just now, SoulMonster said: The point is that patriotism helps support certain foreign policies. If it weren't for the more extreme pariotism certain politicians would never be elected and hence that would influence foreign policies that does affect our lives. Just look to Vote and his rise by catering to "America First" voters. These things are ultimately connected. And my point is that though you have an associated chain of events every instance of patriotism is not the sort that leads to the aforementioned ergo you cant hold it responsible as a whole because you are at risk of dragging a bunch of people with honourable intent into something that they have nothing to do with. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted November 10, 2017 Author Share Posted November 10, 2017 2 minutes ago, Kasanova King said: The overall effect of the US and UK presence in the area though has been more positive than negative. You keep saying this. Maybe it is time for you to put the money where your mouth is and actually substantiate this rather bold claim? I have said plenty of the negative effect of US interfering in the area. You have tried claiming that giving back the oil is a positive and then that US has done heaps of good for women (which it hasn't). Do you have anything else to bring to the discussion? I don't talk about UK because I am not talking about Middle East imperialism, I am talking about the effects of US extreme patriotism. Just now, Len Cnut said: And my point is that though you have an associated chain of events every instance of patriotism is not the sort that leads to the aforementioned ergo you cant hold it responsible as a whole because you are at risk of dragging a bunch of people with honourable intent into something that they have nothing to do with. No one is holding patriotism as a whole responsible for anything or claiming that every instance of patriotism is bad. Please just read the article, or what I have been writing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted November 10, 2017 Share Posted November 10, 2017 1 minute ago, SoulMonster said: You keep saying this. Maybe it is time for you to put the money where your mouth is and actually substantiate this rather bold claim? I have said plenty of the negative effect of US interfering in the area. You have tried claiming that giving back the oil is a positive and then that US has done heaps of good for women (which it hasn't). Do you have anything else to bring to the discussion? I don't talk about UK because I am not talking about Middle East imperialism, I am talking about the effects of US extreme patriotism. No one is holding patriotism as a whole responsible for anything or claiming that every instance of patriotism is bad. Please just read the article, or what I have been writing I did, thank you, its was an enriching experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace Nova Posted November 10, 2017 Share Posted November 10, 2017 (edited) 7 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: You keep saying this. Maybe it is time for you to put the money where your mouth is and actually substantiate this rather bold claim? I have said plenty of the negative effect of US interfering in the area. You have tried claiming that giving back the oil is a positive and then that US has done heaps of good for women (which it hasn't). Do you have anything else to bring to the discussion? I don't talk about UK because I am not talking about Middle East imperialism, I am talking about the effects of US extreme patriotism. I have listed plenty of examples. Read them. And that's exactly my point. The UK has done everything you claim the US has done. Are you saying that there is extreme patriotism in the UK as well? If not your theory is rubbish. (Which it is, btw) Edited November 10, 2017 by Kasanova King Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted November 10, 2017 Author Share Posted November 10, 2017 14 minutes ago, Kasanova King said: I have listed plenty of examples. Read them. And that's exactly my point. The UK has done everything you claim the US has done. Are you saying that there is extreme patriotism in the UK as well? If not your theory is rubbish. (Which it is, btw) Oh, the imperialistic era of the UK was undoubtedly highly patriotic. But UK stopped being a superpower, they simply couldn't maintain their empire. USA still acts in imperialistic ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace Nova Posted November 10, 2017 Share Posted November 10, 2017 1 minute ago, SoulMonster said: Oh, the imperialistic era of the UK was undoubtedly highly patriotic. But UK stopped being a superpower, they simply couldn't maintain their empire. USA still acts in imperialistic ways. So did the UK have a problem with extreme patriotism, as you claim the US has now, that caused their imperialism? And there is no nation more powerful than the UK in Europe. Maybe not technically a "super power" but close. And again, the UK and US foreign policies are interchangeable...even to this day. So if you think the US has a problem with extreme patriotism then the UK must also have a problem with it. If not, your theory that it leads to this type of foreign policy is incorrect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted November 10, 2017 Share Posted November 10, 2017 Canada v America. Fight. Fight. Fight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted November 10, 2017 Author Share Posted November 10, 2017 2 minutes ago, Kasanova King said: So did the UK have a problem with extreme patriotism, as you claim the US has now, that caused their imperialism? I am no expert, but I think the dynamics behind UK's imperialistic ways back in the day was slightly different to what we see in USA today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted November 10, 2017 Share Posted November 10, 2017 Quote P.S. @Len Cnut Should we only look at things that affect our day to day life? No. No but I was making a specific point there about an aspect of patriotism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted November 10, 2017 Share Posted November 10, 2017 German economically as our economy is buggered. France and the United Kingdom are about even military (France leads us in nuclear technology which is a bit disappointing). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted November 10, 2017 Author Share Posted November 10, 2017 3 minutes ago, Kasanova King said: And again, the UK and US foreign policies are interchangeable...even to this day. So if you think the US has a problem with extreme patriotism then the UK must also have a problem with it. If not, your theory that it leads to this type of foreign policy is incorrect. No, they are not interchangeable And no, UK must not also have the same type of patriotism as USA, in the same amounts, EVEN if they had similar policies. Various dynamics can lead to the same result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace Nova Posted November 10, 2017 Share Posted November 10, 2017 1 minute ago, SoulMonster said: I am no expert, but I think the dynamics behind UK's imperialistic ways back in the day was slightly different to what we see in USA today. Smh. Why don't you just admit you hate the U.S. and that your bias blinds you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace Nova Posted November 10, 2017 Share Posted November 10, 2017 2 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: No, they are not interchangeable And no, UK must not also have the same type of patriotism as USA, in the same amounts, EVEN if they had similar policies. Various dynamics can lead to the same result. When was the last time the U.S. did anything major in terms of foreign policy without UK support or vice versa? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soon Posted November 10, 2017 Share Posted November 10, 2017 2 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said: Canada v America. Fight. Fight. Fight. hahaha! If one is willing to count pre-confederation Canadians we are 1-0. Burned down the capital building we did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace Nova Posted November 10, 2017 Share Posted November 10, 2017 4 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said: German economically as our economy is buggered. France and the United Kingdom are about even military (France leads us in nuclear technology which is a bit disappointing). Meh. I think you guys would take them in a war. They haven't been good at fighting since Napoleon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted November 10, 2017 Share Posted November 10, 2017 Vietnam. Wilson kept us out. ''Penny for your pound'' (puffs on pipe). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted November 10, 2017 Share Posted November 10, 2017 2 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said: What's your opinion on the royal family? As a second generation immigrant I'm not sure I have the right to one. Just now, Kasanova King said: Meh. I think you guys would take them in a war. They haven't been good at fighting since Napoleon. We'd fuckin' take everyone mate! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace Nova Posted November 10, 2017 Share Posted November 10, 2017 1 minute ago, DieselDaisy said: Vietnam. Wilson kept us out. ''Penny for your pound'' (puffs on pipe). Wise decision too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted November 10, 2017 Share Posted November 10, 2017 Just now, Oldest Goat said: I don't understand. Are you being sarcastic? No, I'm being quite sincere, who am I to sit here and pass judgement, as the son of someone born in south east Asia, on whether thousands of years of English heritage should be around or not. I mean on the face of it, the divine right to rule, to me, is a bunch of bullshit and contrary to the notion of equality but at the same time it ain't my place to be making such assertions, or rather I don't feel comfortable doing so, in terms of the specific royal family in place now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted November 10, 2017 Share Posted November 10, 2017 A bunch of drunken British soldiers would probably defeat the entirety of the french army. It is not so much training and competence but funding and cuts. The British army has suffered appalling cuts by garbage politicians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted November 10, 2017 Author Share Posted November 10, 2017 25 minutes ago, Kasanova King said: Smh. Why don't you just admit you hate the U.S. and that your bias blinds you. I have no problems admitting I have very little respect for US foreign policy, have I? I think it is for most parts disgraceful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace Nova Posted November 10, 2017 Share Posted November 10, 2017 2 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: I have no problems admitting I have very little respect for US foreign policy, have I? I think it is for most parts disgraceful. So obviously you also hate UK foreign policy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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