The unhealthy American patriotism

[SoulMonster]

23 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

When was the last time the U.S. did anything major in terms of foreign policy without UK support or vice versa? 

 

The last time? I don't know. Trump's tweets about North Korea? Being opposed to the international nuclear agreement with Iran? But again, you are mistaken if you believe that anyone who follows USA do it for the same reasons USA does it.

[SoulMonster]

2 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

So obviously you also hate UK foreign policy? 

They are not at all as bad as USA. USA was the country leading the cold war against USSR. USA was the country who continued destabilizing the Middle East after UK left for own gains. USA is the country with CIA covert operations in South America supporting dictators and ond overthrowing regimes. US is the country with foreign torture centers. USA was the country faking proof of Iraqi WMDs. And so on. I have much less to criticise UK about.

Why are you so frantically trying to make this be about UK?  Is it so unpleasant that I deride USA so you try to turn the flame somewhere else?

6 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

So obviously you also hate UK foreign policy? 

I also wouldn't say I hate US foreign policy. I don't like that word. It seems unmeasured.

[Ace Nova]

50 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

They are not at all as bad as USA. USA was the country leading the cold war against USSR. USA was the country who continued destabilizing the Middle East after UK left for own gains. USA is the country with CIA covert operations in South America supporting dictators and ond overthrowing regimes. US is the country with foreign torture centers. USA was the country faking proof of Iraqi WMDs. And so on. I have much less to criticise UK about.

Why are you so frantically trying to make this be about UK?  Is it so unpleasant that I deride USA so you try to turn the flame somewhere else?

It's to show your underlying bigotry towards the U.S.A.  The UK has done almost everything the U.S. has done or supported it or vice versa.  The U.S. and the U.K. have been aligned probably 90%+ of the time in regards to foreign policy over the last 90+ years....maybe longer.

Over and over again you make excuses for the UK, you say that what they did "isn't as bad" or ok yet everything the U.S. has done has been wrong.

Just admit it and clear your mind.  You can't have a discussion about the U.S. without clear bias caused by your bigotry against the U.S. 

And it's not just this thread.  It's in any and every thread that relates to anything about the U.S.

Edited November 10, 2017 by Kasanova King

[SoulMonster]

1 hour ago, Kasanova King said:

It's to show your underlying bigotry towards the U.S.A.  

I am not at all denying I dislike US' foreign policy. I would have disliked UK foreign policy, too, to the same extent, if they in recent times had done things similar to US' cold war, US supporting dictators in the Middle East, US arming groups that would eventually evolve into the Taliban and Al-Qaeda, involvement in Contras drug trafficking, US toppling regimes in South America in covert operations, US' torture on foreign soil, US lying about WMDs in Iraq, and so on. The list is really long. If you are going to succeed with your argument that I am being unfair to US and should be equally harsh towards the UK, then you have to point out that in modern times, UK has been equally bad as US. But apart from being a lap dog to US now and then, I doubt you will find comparable, really. And hence you fail and it all just looks like you try to divert my attention away from US when you fail to defend your ludicrous claim that it is debatable whether US' interference in the Middle East has been bad.

Again, you are really demonstrating what the author is referring to in the article when he writes that "aversion to facts is a defining characteristic of modern American patriotism". 

 

[Ace Nova]

3 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

I am not at all denying I dislike US' foreign policy. I would have disliked UK foreign policy, too, to the same extent, if they in recent times had done things similar to US' cold war, US supporting dictators in the Middle East, US arming groups that would eventually evolve into the Taliban and Al-Qaeda, involvement in Contras drug trafficking, US toppling regimes in South America in covert operations, US' torture on foreign soil, US lying about WMDs in Iraq, and so on. The list is really long. If you are going to succeed with your argument that I am being unfair to US and should be equally harsh towards the UK, then you have to point out that in modern times, UK has been equally bad as US. But apart from being a lap dog to US now and then, I doubt you will find comparable, really. And hence you fail and it all just looks like you try to divert my attention away from US when you fail to defend your ludicrous claim that it is debatable whether US' interference in the Middle East has been bad.

Again, you are really demonstrating what the author is referring to in the article when he writes that "aversion to facts is a defining characteristic of modern American patriotism". 

 

I've already addressed what the U.S. did during the cold was as not being perfect.  It was a result of the U.S. trying to keep Russia in check. And good thing they did because if you think the U.S. had a negative impact over there, Russian presence in the middle east would have been 10x worse.  The atrocities committed by Russia in Afghanistan are INFAMOUS. Go read about that and educate yourself.

You sound like a radical left-leaning conspiracy theorist when talking about what the U.S. did in South America.  Why did they overthrow those governments? What was the reason behind it?  Were they corrupt maybe?  Were they totalitarian regimes maybe?  Which countries do you speak of? 

Again, the U.S. gave away control of foreign oil.  AND most recently, over 90% of the Iraqi Oil contracts went to China and Russia.  What control of foreign oil do you speak of?  YOU need to start dealing in facts vs. myths.  

This is the 2nd to 3rd time I've addressed the same things.  I'm done.

 

And this image is for you....

 

 

[soon]

1 hour ago, Kasanova King said:

 

You sound like a radical left-leaning conspiracy theorist when talking about what the U.S. did in South America.  Why did they overthrow those governments? What was the reason behind it?  Were they corrupt maybe?  Were they totalitarian regimes maybe?  Which countries do you speak of? 

 

 

I really hope you'll take a good amount of time to educate yourself on the many US interventions in Central and SA.  Theyre not conspiracy theories and I think you will regret that somewhat flippant attitude when you learn the degree of horror the US has produced in the region. Start with The School of the Americas / WHINSEC maybe?  El Salvador, Guatemala, Venezuela, Chile and Argentine for countries to start with.  And Canada partnered with the US in Honduras.  The list goes on. I mean surely you are aware of the War on Drugs, like Columbia and such?  Or the Panama Canal?  But please get to it

[Ace Nova]

1 minute ago, soon said:

I really hope you'll take a good amount of time to educate yourself on the many US interventions in Central and SA.  Theyre not conspiracy theories and I think you will regret that somewhat flippant attitude when you learn the degree of horror the US has produced in the region. Start with The School of the Americas / WHINSEC maybe?  El Salvador, Guatemala, Venezuela, Chile and Argentine for countries to start with.  And Canada partnered with the US in Honduras.  The list goes on. I mean surely you are aware of the War on Drugs, like Columbia and such?  Or the Panama Canal?  But please get to it

He sounds like a conspiracy theorist because of his broad statement talking about the "CIA operations" in South America with ZERO specifics or sources. 

[soon]

2 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

He sounds like a conspiracy theorist because of his broad statement talking about the "CIA operations" in South America with ZERO specifics or sources. 

oh, okay.  But you know thats true and is widely established fact right?

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/reagan-iran/

[Ace Nova]

Just now, soon said:

oh, okay.  But you know thats true and is widely established fact right?

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/reagan-iran/

I'm aware of some of the operations in South America.  I won't defend all of them.  Some were done with the right intentions, others were shady.  U.S. foreign policy has not been perfect, I've said that repeatedly in this thread.  But it's nowhere nearly as flawed or evil as some make it out to be.  Not even close. 

[DieselDaisy]

A legacy of the Monroe Doctrine (1823) with which the United States saw South America as its own backyard. 

[soon]

1 minute ago, Kasanova King said:

I'm aware of some of the operations in South America.  I won't defend all of them.  Some were done with the right intentions, others were shady.  U.S. foreign policy has not been perfect, I've said that repeatedly in this thread.  But it's nowhere nearly as flawed or evil as some make it out to be.  Not even close. 

Yikes.  I dont think you do know much about it then.  You should look into it more.

[Ace Nova]

Just now, soon said:

Yikes.  I dont think you do know much about it then.  You should look into it more.

The Iran Contra was a huge scandal in the U.S.  I won't defend that fiasco. 

What else?

[soon]

Just go back four of my posts when I give my input about what you should learn about

[Fitha_whiskey]

Point is, it’s not patriotism that is the problem in or with America. Not at all. That argument is just horse shit. 

[Ace Nova]

5 minutes ago, soon said:

Just go back four of my posts when I give my input about what you should learn about

School of Americas?  The rest you just listed South American countries...lol

There's probably dozens of smaller-scale operations that involved shady practices.  I'm not denying that.  There's bad elements in everything, even intelligence agencies...many times involving rogue agents, leaders doing things on their own..sometimes without any sort of approval from the U.S. Government.  That stuff happens.  I'm not defending any of that stuff.  Evil can permeate all things, including government, religion, etc.  The point is that it gets dealt with, it gets corrected and we move on.  There isn't an establishment on Earth that is sin free.  There is NO COUNTRY, NO RELIGION, NO PERSON in the world who is free of sin.  "He who is without sin, let him cast out the first stone."  That's the point. The U.S. is not perfect but neither is anyone else.  And the good that the U.S. has done outweighs that bad it has done, imo.  Could it be better?  Of course and hopefully in time, it will.

Now how any of this has to do with patriotism, I don't know.  

[SoulMonster]

17 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

The Iran Contra was a huge scandal in the U.S.  I won't defend that fiasco. 

What else?

Are we now specifically only talking about South America?

What about the invasion of Grenada in 1983 in a "flagrant violation of international law"?

What about training the Contras in Argentina on how to attack civilians, kill judges, blow up official buildings, and generally destabilize the country, and then financing Contras by secretly selling weapons to Iran?

Supporting the dictator Batista in Cuba? And then numerous attempts at intermeddling in Cuban affairs?

The overthrow of president Allende in Chile and support of the dictator Pinochet?

The CIA led overthrow of the democratically-elected president of Paraguay which led to a series of dictatorships supported by USA?

Training people who would then perform a coup at Haiti, overthrowing the first proper government there?

Supporting the dictator Rios Montt in Guatemala?

Supporting the dictator Videla in Argentina?

And there is probably much more than I know of.

Are they keeping this information away from US citizens? Do you not learn about your messing with other countries to further your own agenda?

[soon]

man, people did not like that article.

Just now, Kasanova King said:

School of Americas?  The rest you just listed South American countries...lol

There's probably dozens of smaller-scale operations that involved shady practices.  I'm not denying that.  There's bad elements in everything, even intelligence agencies...many times involving rogue agents, leaders doing things on their own..sometimes without any sort of approval from the U.S. Government.  That stuff happens.  I'm not defending any of that stuff.  Evil can permeate all things, including government, religion, etc.  The point is that it gets dealt with, it gets corrected and we move on.  There isn't an establishment on Earth that is sin free.  There is NO COUNTRY, NO RELIGION, NO PERSON in the world who is free of sin.  "He who is without sin, let him cast out the first stone."  That's the point. The U.S. is not perfect but neither is anyone else.  And the good that the U.S. has done outweighs that bad it has done, imo.  Could it be better?  Of course and hopefully in time, it will.

Now how any of this has to do with patriotism, I don't know.  

Your ignorance on the horrors the US brought to the region and your cavalier attitude about your ignorance isnt a laughing matter.  So yes, research the School of the Americas - how is that funny?

Im not about to sit here and say "hey KK was weaponized rape, child abduction and murder, assassination of workers and clergy, and torture okay in this country in this year?  Okay, how about was weaponized rape, kidnapping and torture okay in this country in this year?"

Its fucking disgusting.

If you insist on being spoon fed, here: http://www.soaw.org/about-us/equipo-sur/263-stories-from-honduras

[DieselDaisy]

Would most of these be described as 'evil', and usually there is some degree of self-criticism being that the United States is a two-party system? It is rather like Britain and Kitchener's policy of 'Concentration Camps' during the tail end of The Boer War. This saw cries of human rights violations from other countries (including the United States as a matter of fact) yet the most vociferous criticism, pertaining to human rights violation, emanated from Britain itself! The best example of this in America's case is Vietnam; that wasn't that popular was it, in the United States? America seemed on the brink of civil war over the issue, e.g, the Kent State Massacre. This does not happen in totalitarian regimes, free of self-censure, which (I believe) are generally horrid like the Third Reich or USSR.

In fact governments have fallen because of foreign policy.

It is not as if other countries are immune from questionable (foreign) human rights abuses either. Pick a country, besides the obvious targets? France in Algeria and Indochina. Italy's African imperialism under Mussolini. Belgium in the Congo. Spain and Portugal in the Americas, and slave-trade (albeit going back a bit historically). Antipodean/South American treatment of indigenous populations. The Turks and the Armenian Genocide. Afrikaner (The Boers who the British were fighting) treatment of black natives (Apartheid). The Argentineans enacted a 'Dirty War' against her own people! Franco did similar in Spain. The list is endless, and there is not a country that is squeaky clean. Even victims of atrocities in turn commit further atrocities as part of reprisals, which seem abhorrent today but somehow get a reprieve because of perceived 'victim hood' and post-colonial political correctness - case in point, the massacre of white settlers by indigenous populations in the Americans and Antipodes. If you look at these acts in isolation, these are brutal brutal deeds indeed, people being scalped, burnt alive, skewed!

[SoulMonster]

5 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

School of Americas?  The rest you just listed South American countries...lol

There's probably dozens of smaller-scale operations that involved shady practices.  I'm not denying that.  There's bad elements in everything, even intelligence agencies...many times involving rogue agents, leaders doing things on their own..sometimes without any sort of approval from the U.S. Government.  That stuff happens.  I'm not defending any of that stuff.  Evil can permeate all things, including government, religion, etc.  The point is that it gets dealt with, it gets corrected and we move on.  There isn't an establishment on Earth that is sin free.  There is NO COUNTRY, NO RELIGION, NO PERSON in the world who is free of sin.  "He who is without sin, let him cast out the first stone."  That's the point. The U.S. is not perfect but neither is anyone else.  And the good that the U.S. has done outweighs that bad it has done, imo.  Could it be better?  Of course and hopefully in time, it will.

Now how any of this has to do with patriotism, I don't know.  

So what good has USA done that somehow negates all these bad things? I am very eager to hear what on Earth USA has done that somehow makes all the deaths, all the torture, all the toppled peaceful democracies, all the support of dictators, all the sanctions that has hurt civilians, all the stolen resources, somehow okay and puts US' net contributions on the plus side? Given us hamburgers and rock n' roll?

[SoulMonster]

2 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

The list is endless, and there is not a country that is squeaky clean. 

I belive that would be Iceland 

[Ace Nova]

2 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Are we now specifically only talking about South America?

What about the invasion of Grenada in 1983 in a "flagrant violation of international law"?

What about training the Contras in Argentina on how to attack civilians, kill judges, blow up official buildings, and generally destabilize the country, and then financing Contras by secretly selling weapons to Iran?

Supporting the dictator Batista in Cuba? And then numerous attempts at intermeddling in Cuban affairs?

The overthrow of president Allende in Chile and support of the dictator Pinochet?

The CIA led overthrow of the democratically-elected president of Paraguay which led to a series of dictatorships supported by USA?

Training people who would then perform a coup at Haiti, overthrowing the first proper government there?

Supporting the dictator Rios Montt in Guatemala?

Supporting the dictator Videla in Argentina?

And there is probably much more than I know of.

Are they keeping this information away from US citizens? Do you not learn about your messing with other countries to further your own agenda?

 

6 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Are we now specifically only talking about South America?

What about the invasion of Grenada in 1983 in a "flagrant violation of international law"?

What about training the Contras in Argentina on how to attack civilians, kill judges, blow up official buildings, and generally destabilize the country, and then financing Contras by secretly selling weapons to Iran?

Supporting the dictator Batista in Cuba? And then numerous attempts at intermeddling in Cuban affairs?

The overthrow of president Allende in Chile and support of the dictator Pinochet?

The CIA led overthrow of the democratically-elected president of Paraguay which led to a series of dictatorships supported by USA?

Training people who would then perform a coup at Haiti, overthrowing the first proper government there?

Supporting the dictator Rios Montt in Guatemala?

Supporting the dictator Videla in Argentina?

And there is probably much more than I know of.

Are they keeping this information away from US citizens? Do you not learn about your messing with other countries to further your own agenda?

I've already said it a half a dozen times.  The U.S. isn't perfect but neither is anyone else.  You should worry about Norway's drug epidemic vs. worrying about what the U.S. is doing all the time.  And while you're at it, try fixing their alcohol problem as well. 

2 minutes ago, soon said:

man, people did not like that article.

Your ignorance on the horrors the US brought to the region and your cavalier attitude about your ignorance isnt a laughing matter.  So yes, research the School of the Americas - how is that funny?

Im not about to sit here and say "hey KK was weaponized rape, child abduction and murder, assassination of workers and clergy, and torture okay in this country in this year?  Okay, how about was weaponized rape, kidnapping and torture okay in this country in this year?"

Its fucking disgusting.

If you insist on being spoon fed, here: http://www.soaw.org/about-us/equipo-sur/263-stories-from-honduras

I'll look into it... could be true...or there's probably more to the story, which is likely. 

[SoulMonster]

Just now, Kasanova King said:

I've already said it a half a dozen times.  The U.S. isn't perfect but neither is anyone else.  

We are not talking about anyone else. We are talking about USA. I am arguing that you are wrong when you claim that USA isn't so bad, I am arguing that you are wrong when you claim it is debatable whether US has had a negative effect on the Middle East, I am arguing that you are failing to provide examples that will offset all the bad USA has done -- instead you keep pointing to UK, or other countries, or just expose your general ignorance about the affairs of your very own homeland.

This is exactly the dangerous patriotism that the author in the first thread spoke about, the one that makes Americans blind to their faults, the one that prevents them from absorbing facts that would somehow interfere with their illusion that USA has a glorious international legacy, the one that can be abused by scrupulous politicians when they confuse gullible US citizens into supporting their shady policies --  because, after all, 'Murica! You have in an almost chillingly way demonstrated how correct the author is when he describes the problems with this extreme patriotism and how it leads to ignorant people who are easily duped and manipulated through their exaggerated patriotism. 

[Fitha_whiskey]

2 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

We are not talking about anyone else. We are talking about USA. I am arguing that you are wrong when you claim that USA isn't so bad, I am arguing that you are wrong when you claim it is debatable whether US has had a negative effect on the Middle East, I am arguing that you are failing to provide examples that will offset all the bad USA has done -- instead you keep pointing to UK, or other countries, or just expose your general ignorance about the affairs of your very own homeland.

This is exactly the dangerous patriotism that the author in the first thread spoke about, the one that makes Americans blind to their faults, the one that prevents them from absorbing facts that would somehow interfere with their illusion that USA has a glorious international legacy, the one that can be abused by scrupulous politicians when they confuse gullible US citizens into supporting their shady policies --  because, after all, 'Murica! You have in an almost chillingly way demonstrated how correct the author is when he describes the problems with this extreme patriotism and how it leads to ignorant people who are easily duped and manipulated through their exaggerated patriotism. 

You read an article on the internet from Europe and now you know everything about what is wrong with America? A country that has pockets of every type of immigrant in the world and states that are so different from each other that they may as well be foreign countries. I️ gather you are Northern European. Have you ever been to the US? Trust me, Americans realize we are doing a lot of things that we aren’t all proud of, but blinding patriotism is not our problem. We are very very patriotic, but our problem is corruption and the worship of the dollar. Not patriotism. Which was the whole point if I’m not mistaken. What have we done good for the world? Well, maybe you would’ve liked to been a nazi, I️ don’t know.

[Ace Nova]

1 hour ago, SoulMonster said:

So what good has USA done that somehow negates all these bad things? I am very eager to hear what on Earth USA has done that somehow makes all the deaths, all the torture, all the toppled peaceful democracies, all the support of dictators, all the sanctions that has hurt civilians, all the stolen resources, somehow okay and puts US' net contributions on the plus side? Given us hamburgers and rock n' roll?

Are you serious?  The U.S. has brought to the world:

1. The computer.  Thanks to the U.S. you are talking to an enlightened person, like myself, thousands of miles away.

2. Escalators

3. Vacuum Cleaners

4. Motor Cycles

5. Electric Lightbulb 

6. Blue Jeans

7. Thermostats

8. Skyscrapers

9. Photographic Film

10. Tesla Coil

11. AIRPLANES

12. Traffic Lights

13. Yes, Cheeseburgers!

14. Bubble Gum yum!

15. Electric Razor

16. Tampons (Your wife thanks us)

17. Sunglasses

18. Cheesesteak (Go to Philadelphia and try one, you'll thank me)

19. Electric Guitar 

20. Bass Guitar

21. Teflon

22. ATM Machines

23. Deodorant (modern day versions) so you don't stink.

24. Microwave Ovens

25. Credit Cards

26. Supersonic Aircraft

27. Video Games

28. Airbags

29. Barcodes

30. Artificial Heart

31. Buffalo Wings

32. Plasma Displays

33. Snowboarding

34. Cordless Telephones

35. Mini Computers

36. Compact Discs

37. DRAM

38. Virtual Reality

39. First Landed on the Moon

40. Personal Computer

41. E-Mail

42. GPS

43. Mobile Phones

44. Voicemail

45. Digital Cameras

46. Paintball

47. INTERNET

48. Segways

49. Hollywood - Yep, just about every great movie or show you've seen comes from the good ole USA.

50.  GUNS N' F'N ROSES 

There's thousands more, I don't have time to type them all out.  Feel free to take a look:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_United_States_inventions

I didn't even get into medicine or the hundreds of life-saving drugs invented by U.S. companies. 

 

So yes, the U.S. has done much more good for the world than bad.  As a matter of fact, there are few, if any, nations in the history of the world, that have helped civilization advance more than the U.S.A. has.

You should be grateful, not jealous.  

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 11, 2017 by Kasanova King

[Ace Nova]

31 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

We are not talking about anyone else. We are talking about USA. I am arguing that you are wrong when you claim that USA isn't so bad, I am arguing that you are wrong when you claim it is debatable whether US has had a negative effect on the Middle East, I am arguing that you are failing to provide examples that will offset all the bad USA has done -- instead you keep pointing to UK, or other countries, or just expose your general ignorance about the affairs of your very own homeland.

This is exactly the dangerous patriotism that the author in the first thread spoke about, the one that makes Americans blind to their faults, the one that prevents them from absorbing facts that would somehow interfere with their illusion that USA has a glorious international legacy, the one that can be abused by scrupulous politicians when they confuse gullible US citizens into supporting their shady policies --  because, after all, 'Murica! You have in an almost chillingly way demonstrated how correct the author is when he describes the problems with this extreme patriotism and how it leads to ignorant people who are easily duped and manipulated through their exaggerated patriotism. 

I just did above.