The unhealthy American patriotism

[Whiskey Rose]

I didn't read the article and I don't care to. But we should all have a measure of National Pride. These are our countries, where we hail from, whom our relatives have fought and died for! And as a matter of fact I think that we Canadians could take a few pointers from America in this regard..we are very reticent in showing our pride in our Country, nary a flag to be found on anyone's front lawn except for July 1 Canada Day..then July 2, back into storage they go. Now to be clear, we go all out on Canada Day, but I have to say, when I see that someone leaves a flag out all year round, every time I pass it, I feel proud as punch, and I wish more people would do it.

[Ace Nova]

USA! USA! USA! 

 

[DieselDaisy]

3 hours ago, Kasanova King said:

49. Hollywood - Yep, just about every great movie or show you've seen comes from the good ole USA.

You're kidding? Have you seen the state of Hollywood films these days?

[Ace Nova]

10 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

You're kidding? Have you seen the state of Hollywood films these days?

Name the top 100 films of all time.  Where were they made?

It's the golden age of television now anyway...so for what Hollywood may lack now in films, they make up for it in TV.

 

Edited November 11, 2017 by Kasanova King

[DieselDaisy]

6 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

Name the top 100 films of all time.  Where were they made?

Japan, Italy, France and Germany.

[Ace Nova]

4 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Japan, Italy, France and Germany.

Not according to Diesel, according to film critics:

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/top/bestofrt/

  Or better yet, according to people across the world:

http://www.imdb.com/list/ls055592025/

 

Edited November 11, 2017 by Kasanova King

[DieselDaisy]

5 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

Not according to Diesel, according to film critics:

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/top/bestofrt/

  Or better yet, according to people across the world:

http://www.imdb.com/list/ls055592025/

 

Quite a good list until,

Quote

23.      92%    Wonder Woman (2017)

List void.

[Ace Nova]

Just now, DieselDaisy said:

Quite a good list until,

List void.

I saw that too.  Surprised it was rated that high.  Need to go watch it now. 

[DieselDaisy]

American cinema was once great but now it is dreary, a multitude of cgied superhero reboots.

[Ace Nova]

9 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

American cinema was once great but now it is dreary, a multitude of cgied superhero reboots.

There's usually a handful of decent films every year.  TV has been great over the past decade or so though.  Breaking Bad, Game of Thrones, Sopranos, The Wire, Mad Men, House of Cards, Stranger Things, Dexter, American Horror Story, etc.  

Edited November 11, 2017 by Kasanova King

[DieselDaisy]

7 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

There's usually a handful of decent films every year.  TV has been great over the past decade or so though.  Breaking Bad, Game of Thrones, Sopranos, The Wire, Mad Men, House of Cards, Stranger Things, Dexter, American Horror Story, etc.  

I do not really watch tv shows these days. I did watch the new trek and it is a bit creaky.

[Ace Nova]

Just now, DieselDaisy said:

I do not really watch tv shows these days. I did watch the new trek and it is a bit creaky.

Do you have Netflix?  They have quite a few of those series...and you can binge watch them.  

[DieselDaisy]

3 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

Do you have Netflix?  They have quite a few of those series...and you can binge watch them.  

I have no time. I'm too busy watching cricket, which is exactly what I'm doing now.

[Ace Nova]

1 minute ago, Oldest Goat said:

@Kasanova King ...you glaze over and condone America's atrocious foreign policy by shifting the blame, deflection and willful ignorance. How can you possibly think this is acceptable? How do you plea?

"Cheeseburger! Tampons, your wife thanks us! Deodorant, so you don't stink! Etc!"

I've heard enough. I hear by find you in contempt...for having not yet started to PAAARRRTTTYYYYYYYYYYY! *American Pie-esque college keg party ensues*

 

USA! USA! USA! 

 

[SoulMonster]

6 hours ago, Fitha_whiskey said:

You read an article on the internet from Europe and now you know everything about what is wrong with America? A country that has pockets of every type of immigrant in the world and states that are so different from each other that they may as well be foreign countries. I️ gather you are Northern European. Have you ever been to the US? Trust me, Americans realize we are doing a lot of things that we aren’t all proud of, but blinding patriotism is not our problem. We are very very patriotic, but our problem is corruption and the worship of the dollar. Not patriotism. Which was the whole point if I’m not mistaken. What have we done good for the world? Well, maybe you would’ve liked to been a nazi, I️ don’t know.

No, I don't know everything that is wrong with USA, but I do recognise the problem with extreme patriotism as described in the article. 

Yes, I have been to the USA, but that is irrelevant. 

I don't deny that corruption and capitalism may be a problem in USA, but now we are talking about patriotism. 

USA did not rid the world of Nazism. Is that what you are taught in school? The brunt of the work was done by Russia. What US did was mainly in the Pacific theatre, and that was mostly motivated by self-preservation and revenge after Pearl Harbour. If you think that USA readily jumped into the war when it started to defeat Hitler, then you are sadly mistaken. USA wanted to stay out of the war, but was dragged into it. Which was fortunate for us, especially when they later did help out in the European theatre, something of which we will always be grateful. 

Any other examples? 

[SoulMonster]

6 hours ago, Kasanova King said:

Are you serious?  The U.S. has brought to the world:

What are you on about? We talked about foreign policies, right? It started with you saying it is debatable whether the US foreign policies in the Middle East has been negative, and you bring up innovations  No one is denying US is a leading country for innovations. Personally I'd write a list of US' scientific discoveries that I find even more impressive. But it all still has nothing to do with international politics. 

So does this mean you admit that US foreign policies are a travesty and that you can't really find much good about it?

Edited November 11, 2017 by SoulMonster

[Ace Nova]

1 hour ago, SoulMonster said:

What are you on about? We talked about foreign policies, right? It started with you saying it is debatable whether the US foreign policies in the Middle East has been negative, and you bring up innovations  No one is denying US is a leading country for innovations. Personally I'd write a list of US' scientific discoveries that I find even more impressive. But it all still has nothing to do with international politics. 

So does this mean you admit that US foreign policies are a travesty and that you can't really find much good about it?

You asked if I thought the U.S. had done more good than bad in the world.  And said something about all the good we did was bring rock n roll and cheeseburgers into the world.  So I listed the good the U.S. has brought into the world.  And if it wasn't for U.S. foreign policy making the U.S. what it is today, we wouldn't have been able to do everything we have done throughout history. So yes, I think we've done more good than bad.  

 

[SoulMonster]

8 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

You asked if I thought the U.S. had done more good than bad in the world.  And said something about all the good we did was bring rock n roll and cheeseburgers into the world.  

Yeah, I was trying to be funny, I didn't think you'd take it up as a challenge We were talking about foreign politics.

I am a huge supporter of USA's leading role in science and innovations. I am also fond of its culture, in many ways it is my own culture - that's how pervasive it is. What I have also come to like, through all my travels in USA, is the warm and welcoming nature of most Americans. I can always go out to a US bar and know I will meet many friendly and interesting people. So no, I don't hate USA as you like to point out in this thread when I criticise US' foreign policies. I simply dislike US' foreign policies, for most part, and of course the extreme patriotism that in many ways substantiates it.

The very fact that almost anyone can quickly raffle out numerous US' foreign travesties, and no one is really able to come up with anything good they have done (again, about US' foreign policies not USA in general), should be a strong indicator to you that, all in all, it is a shameful thing. When you realize this it should inspire you to think and read, not entrench yourself in your obvious ignorance.

But it shouldn't come as a surprise that USA hasn't done lots of good in international policies. Few countries to anything unselfishly for other countries. They don't have the mandate for that. For every country it is "Us First". It is all about making sure one's own citizens are protected and safe, with strong economies. Obvious exceptions are foreign aid. Some might argue that trade is another, but that is a mutually beneficial thing and not something one does only to help others. We are all very selfish, for most part, and that's one of the points of even having nations.

So there isn't a huge lot of difference between nations in how much good we do for other nations -- it is for most part very little. There is a difference, though, in how much bad we do to others, and this mostly comes down to how much bad we have the resources to do. Most European imperialistic nations had to give up their territories because they didn't have the means to keep them. That was the end to European imperialism. It happened not out of the kindness of their hearts, but because the countries simply failed to maintain foreign colonies over time due to logistics, resistance, or international pressure. But as UK stepped out of the Middle East, as other nations slowly left Africa, USA moved in. USA didn't stop, if anything as it became the largest superpower in the world it ramped up its egotistical meddling in the affairs of others. When other countries gave up their imperialistic ways (out of necessity, not kindness), USA just kept it up, until this day. And THAT is why this thread is about USA and not UK, or any other country. 

The reasons why USA has interfered to such a large extent in other countries is power play and economics...and simply because they could. And to keep people supporting their extensive foreign policies it was a need to build a strong domestic patriotism that would blindly accept or forgive any transgressions. A population that is both ignorant and indoctrinated to believe in "America First" and American exceptionalism, is exactly what is required to maintain over time a very aggressive and covert foreign policy. And this is exactly what we see today, both in the news media and here in this very thread. Americans who are ignorant about US foreign policies yet stubbornly will defend it.

[Dazey]

11 hours ago, Kasanova King said:

School of Americas?  The rest you just listed South American countries...lol

There's probably dozens of smaller-scale operations that involved shady practices.  I'm not denying that.  There's bad elements in everything, even intelligence agencies...many times involving rogue agents, leaders doing things on their own..sometimes without any sort of approval from the U.S. Government.  That stuff happens.  I'm not defending any of that stuff.  Evil can permeate all things, including government, religion, etc.  The point is that it gets dealt with, it gets corrected and we move on.  There isn't an establishment on Earth that is sin free.  There is NO COUNTRY, NO RELIGION, NO PERSON in the world who is free of sin.  "He who is without sin, let him cast out the first stone."  That's the point. The U.S. is not perfect but neither is anyone else.  And the good that the U.S. has done outweighs that bad it has done, imo.  Could it be better?  Of course and hopefully in time, it will.

Now how any of this has to do with patriotism, I don't know.  

Except for the fact that sin is a made up concept. A fallacy invented by religious institutions to give them control over the masses.

Edited November 11, 2017 by Dazey

[Ace Nova]

3 hours ago, Dazey said:

Except for the fact that sin is a made up concept. A fallacy invented by religious institutions to give them control over the masses.

 Come on man, you're turning into Soul Monster.  In the context in which it's used it's describing "wrong doings" ..has nothing to do with religion....lol.  And the word is used all the time outside of its religious connotation.  

Edited November 11, 2017 by Kasanova King

[Ace Nova]

7 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

Yeah, I was trying to be funny, I didn't think you'd take it up as a challenge We were talking about foreign politics.

I am a huge supporter of USA's leading role in science and innovations. I am also fond of its culture, in many ways it is my own culture - that's how pervasive it is. What I have also come to like, through all my travels in USA, is the warm and welcoming nature of most Americans. I can always go out to a US bar and know I will meet many friendly and interesting people. So no, I don't hate USA as you like to point out in this thread when I criticise US' foreign policies. I simply dislike US' foreign policies, for most part, and of course the extreme patriotism that in many ways substantiates it.

The very fact that almost anyone can quickly raffle out numerous US' foreign travesties, and no one is really able to come up with anything good they have done (again, about US' foreign policies not USA in general), should be a strong indicator to you that, all in all, it is a shameful thing. When you realize this it should inspire you to think and read, not entrench yourself in your obvious ignorance.

But it shouldn't come as a surprise that USA hasn't done lots of good in international policies. Few countries to anything unselfishly for other countries. They don't have the mandate for that. For every country it is "Us First". It is all about making sure one's own citizens are protected and safe, with strong economies. Obvious exceptions are foreign aid. Some might argue that trade is another, but that is a mutually beneficial thing and not something one does only to help others. We are all very selfish, for most part, and that's one of the points of even having nations.

So there isn't a huge lot of difference between nations in how much good we do for other nations -- it is for most part very little. There is a difference, though, in how much bad we do to others, and this mostly comes down to how much bad we have the resources to do. Most European imperialistic nations had to give up their territories because they didn't have the means to keep them. That was the end to European imperialism. It happened not out of the kindness of their hearts, but because the countries simply failed to maintain foreign colonies over time due to logistics, resistance, or international pressure. But as UK stepped out of the Middle East, as other nations slowly left Africa, USA moved in. USA didn't stop, if anything as it became the largest superpower in the world it ramped up its egotistical meddling in the affairs of others. When other countries gave up their imperialistic ways (out of necessity, not kindness), USA just kept it up, until this day. And THAT is why this thread is about USA and not UK, or any other country. 

The reasons why USA has interfered to such a large extent in other countries is power play and economics...and simply because they could. And to keep people supporting their extensive foreign policies it was a need to build a strong domestic patriotism that would blindly accept or forgive any transgressions. A population that is both ignorant and indoctrinated to believe in "America First" and American exceptionalism, is exactly what is required to maintain over time a very aggressive and covert foreign policy. And this is exactly what we see today, both in the news media and here in this very thread. Americans who are ignorant about US foreign policies yet stubbornly will defend it.

I see your point.  I may not agree with it all but I understand where you are coming from.

As far as U.S. foreign policy goes in the historical context,yes, I tend to agree that most of it was done to benefit the U.S.  Just about every country in the world has a foreign policy to benefit themselves. 

As I stated 3-4 times already, I think out of the major events involving US foreign policy, WWI, WWII, the Korean War, Cuban Missile Crisis, the Cold War, Desert Storm and even some things done in the Middle East to help keep Russia out were all positives.  There's collateral damage to some of these events but the good outweighs the negative.  And if you don't agree we will have to agree to disagree.  You won't change my opinion on those events and I probably won't change yours.

  As far as many of the other events you speak of such as the Iraq War, I agree, it was a horrible mistake in US foreign policy..as was the Vietnam War...as were several other events in the middle East, etc.  

As far as the South American events go, the he only events I know a lot about are the Iran Contra and the DEA's involvement in going after Escobar.  As I said I won't defend Iran Contra, was a huge scandal here in the states.  As far as the DEA's dealing in South America, their intentions were good although overall I think the War or Drugs is a mess.  So I'm more or less neutral when it comes to that stuff.  As for the rest of the events in South America, I'll have to read more into them and dissect fact from fiction.

Now back on topic.  Extreme US patriotism is being way overstated by the author.  He is talking about maybe 10-20% of the population, tops.  They are not enough to sway the country to go to war.  The last time the US stood together ...right with left and I felt true patriotism was during Desert Storm and Desert Shield.  We stood together after 9/11 as well but there was so much shock and horror that it's hard to describe it as patriotism.  During the 2nd Iraq War it was the complete opposite.  The country was totally divided....it was the complete opposite of patriotism...so your theory that it was patriotism that lead to the 2nd Iraq War is way off.

 

Edited November 11, 2017 by Kasanova King

[Chewbacca]

Yay, another article that tells americans they're wrong in their views, are blind, think they're the nicest thing in the world and  should be ashamed of themselves. Damn, americans, stop being the bad guys for once. How do you manage to live your lives with all that shame in your shoulders?

Edited November 11, 2017 by Chewbacca

[Ace Nova]

6 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

Yay, another article that tells americans they're wrong in their views, are blind, think they're the nicest thing in the world and  should be ashamed of themselves. Damn, americans, stop being the bad guys for once. How do you manage to live your lives with all that shame in your shoulders?

You're right. It seems as if  90% of the threads in Anything Goes involving the U.S. are meant to some how bash the U.S.

 

I'm going to start a positive U.S. thread in Anything Goes every time I see a negative one from now on. 

[Len Cnut]

4 hours ago, Dazey said:

Except for the fact that sin is a made up concept. A fallacy invented by religious institutions to give them control over the masses.

It also just means an immoral act though, doesn't it?  And religion didn't make up morality, they just got in their early and thought they'd bought the rights. 

4 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

You're right. It seems as if  90% of the threads in Anything Goes involving the U.S. are meant to some how bash the U.S.

 

I'm going to start a positive U.S. thread in Anything Goes every time I see a negative one from now on. 

I dunno, I'm quite complimentary about the yanks...and I rarely compliment anyone/anything.  But yeah, loads of food, loads of booze, fast cars (big engines anyway!), fit birds and armed to the teeth, my kinda people!

Edited November 11, 2017 by Len Cnut

[soon]

The good old Office, always a great satire of the US and UK.  The general lack of perspective on the horrors of the US reminded me of this: