GNR Thrives in the PC Era

[Locke]

Anyone else surprised that the tour came and went without any notable backlash? Anything form One in a Million lyrics to Axl's alleged history of violence against women to past misogynistic lyrics could have made them easy targets for a do-gooder media crusader and/or any one of the billion protest groups we seem to have these days. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy it didn't happen and I loved the show I attended. Just saying that in this era of PC, I'm surprised there wasn't some type of mock outrage combined with a million millennial march.

Along the same lines, I wonder if this is part of the reason that Axl doesn't do many interviews. It wouldn't surprise me to see a media type try to make a name for himself/herself by railroading him. I tend to believe that most of the reason he stays quiet is that the mystery drives interest, but I wonder if this plays some part.

Forgive me if this has come up before. I lurk on a regular basis, but I don't have time to read everything. 

[North Korean Democracy]

They're jut not that relevant anmore, thanks God.

[maynard]

Duff has been marching for leftist women, they have a girl in the band now, it's almost like they feel like apologizing before blasting into some women degradation tunes they have. Don't think they are PC, or anti-PC, they do look like hypocrites from time to time tho.

[soon]

Yes, I was surprised that they got through it.  I mean they did play the Freddie Mercury show to mild protest back in the day, so there was some evidence that organizations thought to allocate resources elsewhere for some time now, but I was still surprised.  For younger millennials, some of whom are perhaps addicted to 'shaming culture' and who aren't organized; I think that they just don't even know about most of the potential concerns.  

It was also cool that GNR's anti-Trump stuff didnt hurt them either.  

Seems like everyone was just ready to rock out together! 

There's plenty of progressives, social-dems, moderates and a few anarchists, lefties and communists on this forum and I think that also demonstrates that a good many people are able to separate things and maintain perspective.  In fact the ideals of art and the passionate feelings that GNR's music produces are rather large aspects in the cultural tapestry of those systems of thought.  Furthermore most of the organized left embrace the neurological diversity that the madness of one Axl Rose has showcased over the years.  

As an aside and not as a criticism of the wording in the OP, but as a millennial all I can say is that the term PC - Politically Correct - seems redundant in the face of existing terms.  Please let me explain.  Being a misogynist is just being an uniformed asshole.  So we already have terms and norms to describe - and be critical of - that type of anti-social behaviour.  If some one is racist then they too are ignorant, hate filled, paranoid and anti social.  We have so many words and norms already in place.  And the terms used to prompt a reminder of those norms include "respect" or "be polite."  Creating a newer label like "PC" makes it seem like these are new rules, representing some sort of cultural shift.  All thats new, imho, is the power of social media.  Which amplifies real issues along with silliness and hysteria, across the social and political spectrum.  Again, not begrudging any one for using the term.  Its just something that stands out to me.

 

Edited December 1, 2017 by soon

[ChristmasFnatic]

20 minutes ago, maynard said:

Duff has been marching for leftist women, they have a girl in the band now, it's almost like they feel like apologizing before blasting into some women degradation tunes they have. Don't think they are PC, or anti-PC, they do look like hypocrites from time to time tho.

I think this. And by Axl hiring Melissa and Duff being pro-active, they wash their hands and sealed their fate.

plus them doing that Trump doll in Mexico makes left people give them a pass.

[Len Cnut]

The Stones were 100 times more controversial and offensive and they play all over the place.  I mean have you heard the lyrics of Brown Sugar?   There's loads of active bands out there with immensely offensive lyrics.

[Locke]

3 hours ago, soon said:

As an aside and not as a criticism of the wording in the OP, but as a millennial all I can say is that the term PC - Politically Correct - seems redundant in the face of existing terms.  Please let me explain.  Being a misogynist is just being an uniformed asshole.  So we already have terms and norms to describe - and be critical of - that type of anti-social behaviour.  If some one is racist then they too are ignorant, hate filled, paranoid and anti social.  We have so many words and norms already in place.  And the terms used to prompt a reminder of those norms include "respect" or "be polite."  Creating a newer label like "PC" makes it seem like these are new rules, representing some sort of cultural shift.  All thats new, imho, is the power of social media.  Which amplifies real issues along with silliness and hysteria, across the social and political spectrum.  Again, not begrudging any one for using the term.  Its just something that stands out to me.

 

Sorry, that description wouldn't fit in the headline, so PC it was! For whatever it's worth, I lean left, but I tend to roll my eyes at what feels like a daily dose of people being offended just to be offended.

[Locke]

1 hour ago, Len Cnut said:

The Stones were 100 times more controversial and offensive and they play all over the place.  I mean have you heard the lyrics of Brown Sugar?   There's loads of active bands out there with immensely offensive lyrics.

Of course on the offensive lyrics aspect, but GNR did the mega tour during what feels like the peak of the "we demand an apology or we will continue to complain about it on social media and once we get it we will find a new target" hysteria, so it just surprised me that they weren't targeted by someone. Happy it wasn't an issue. 

Edited November 30, 2017 by Locke

[alfierose]

Rockstars, the proper bonafide ones, like Rose, Jagger, Plant, Wyman etc.. for some reason seem to have a level of immunity not afforded to most others. It's strange considering they are possibly the most overt group of men regarding their behaviour - many have written books and the stories are widely documented.

Perhaps the upfront nature of mega rockstars makes them a dull media target, they can't be shamed and brought down because everyone already knows and they're not pretending to be something they are not.

Maybe it's also something about music itself as opposed to other art forms that we are more willing to look past flaws and misdemeanours of the artist. I'm not talking about the Gary Glitters of the world but those who are likened to genius and afforded God like status. 

It's an interesting question to pose because really they should be easy targets but that doesn't seem to play out in reality.

[cooker]

I think one of the reasons GN'R isn't in the current cycle of "PC" outrage is because this is old news, no one is breaking any stories over GN'R's lyrics and past behavious. The money is in bringing down seemingly respectable individuals in pop culture. 

[WhazUp]

They really aren't that "controversial" anymore, they are all sober, show up on time, don't do dumb shit on stage, and have been very consistent.  And by all accounts I find all of those things to be great

[Ratam]

5 minutes ago, cooker said:

I think one of the reasons GN'R isn't in the current cycle of "PC" outrage is because this is old news, no one is breaking any stories over GN'R's lyrics and past behavious. The money is in bringing down seemingly respectable individuals in pop culture. 

Yes,already is very know ,they are famous  and all the world know songs they

4 minutes ago, WhazUp said:

They really aren't that "controversial" anymore, they are all sober, show up on time, don't do dumb shit on stage, and have been very consistent.  And by all accounts I find all of those things to be great

Agree 👍

[Silverburst80]

3 hours ago, tremolo said:

That just proves how irrelevant they are outside their fanbase (hardcore and casual).

Also, they haven’t released any lyrics that could provoke that kind of reaction in people since UYI. All the stuff that you mention was created a long time ago. If it was released today, the backlash woud be huge.

Or you could argue their fanbase is so huge (hardcore and casual) that anyones outrage isn't going to mean shit anyway

[alfierose]

Article from the New Yorker that touches on some of the discussion in this thread

https://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/why-has-r-kellys-career-thrived-despite-sexual-misconduct-allegations

Why is the pop-music world so reluctant to address Kelly’s alleged misdeeds? One reason may be that the genre has witnessed so much bad-boy behavior for so long that huge swaths of beloved sounds, from James Brown to the Rolling Stones, from Led Zeppelin to the many records produced by Dr. Dre, would be out of bounds if listeners didn’t separate the art from the artist. In general, we seem especially reluctant to believe the worst of artists whose music has touched us deeply.

[action]

13 hours ago, Len Cnut said:

The Stones were 100 times more controversial and offensive and they play all over the place.  I mean have you heard the lyrics of Brown Sugar?   There's loads of active bands out there with immensely offensive lyrics.

yes but keith never shat on an airplane

as for the topic: the OP makes some good points. no sexual harrasment accusations? really???? mind blown. with all the shagging that went on back in the day, you'd think at least one of the women involved would feel somewhat offended / violated.

(for the record, i do think the #metoo campaign has outstayed their welcome. to me, its become a bit of a meme)

Edited December 1, 2017 by action

[JoeyBananaduck]

Keith's been touring the globe for over 50 years and he's NEVER SHAT ON A PLANE?!!

Fuck me, the guy really is a medical marvel

[AXL_N_DIZZY]

Axl used to be an independent, libertarian-type politically IMHO. Judging by the Kimmel interview, Trump bashing and many of his tweets the last 5 years he’s become a pretty unapologetic liberal (which is totally his right of course)- as have several other band members (e.g. Duff, Dizzy, Richard, etc.). Plus- as mentioned- the band features a minority (Frank), a half-minority (Slash), a woman, etc. In that context- leftist, media/entertainment types aren’t going to go out of their way to criticize them for 25 year-old transgressions IMHO.  They’d be very smart not to generate any new, negative headlines in this regard though- particularly in this environment.

[RussTCB]

5 hours ago, Oldest Goat said:

I hate political correctness so much.

Couldn't agree more. 

[Izzymacbeth]

When people say to me GNR are homophobic/racist/sexist I always just say 'what Axl who dueted with Elton John at the Freddie Mercury awards? Guns who have 2 black guys, Guns who have a female synth/keys/backing vocalist?'  Its ridiculous. Guns were never ANY of those things. Just a band who wrote about real life and their experiences. The way honest rock n roll should be. PC brigade can fuck off. 

Edited December 1, 2017 by Izzymacbeth

[Top-Hatted One]

The people filling their Stadium shows barely know anyone other than Axl and Slash or Coma etc.

They certainly don't know the bands entire history. It is very surprising that the media hasn't brought it up.

Could be because today's media, in general, are clueless idiots or bringing it up would force a domino effect and effect everyone in the media and music biz.

It's like the Harvey Weinstein or Matt Lauer scandal. Everyone knew but no one spoke out. Too much loot at stake 

[mr. address]

On 11/30/2017 at 12:19 PM, soon said:

Yes, I was surprised that they got through it.  I mean they did play the Freddie Mercury show to mild protest back in the day, so there was some evidence that organizations thought to allocate resources elsewhere for some time now, but I was still surprised.  For younger millennials, some of whom are perhaps addicted to 'shaming culture' and who aren't organized; I think that they just don't even know about most of the potential concerns.  

It was also cool that GNR's anti-Trump stuff didnt hurt them either.  

Seems like everyone was just ready to rock out together! 

There's plenty of progressives, social-dems, moderates and a few anarchists, lefties and communists on this forum and I think that also demonstrates that a good many people are able to separate things and maintain perspective.  In fact the ideals of art and the passionate feelings that GNR's music produces are rather large aspects in the cultural tapestry of those systems of thought.  Furthermore most of the organized left embrace the neurological diversity that the madness of one Axl Rose has showcased over the years.  

As an aside and not as a criticism of the wording in the OP, but as a millennial all I can say is that the term PC - Politically Correct - seems redundant in the face of existing terms.  Please let me explain.  Being a misogynist is just being an uniformed asshole.  So we already have terms and norms to describe - and be critical of - that type of anti-social behaviour.  If some one is racist then they too are ignorant, hate filled, paranoid and anti social.  We have so many words and norms already in place.  And the terms used to prompt a reminder of those norms include "respect" or "be polite."  Creating a newer label like "PC" makes it seem like these are new rules, representing some sort of cultural shift.  All thats new, imho, is the power of social media.  Which amplifies real issues along with silliness and hysteria, across the social and political spectrum.  Again, not begrudging any one for using the term.  Its just something that stands out to me.

 

I haven't logged into this forum in years, and I am doing so here to +1 this. 

As for "offended for the sake of" . . . I am really glad to be living in a time wherein sexism, racism, and assault are called out for the base piggery that they are.  Sticking up for anyone's right to not be assaulted or debased isn't "leftist" or political.  It's just basic human decency. 

I do think if GNR were out there cheesing for the cameras etc there would be people talking shit.  But, they're all blatantly grown intelligent men now who no doubt would offer a decent perspective if so inclined.  

"One in a Million" is a mixed bag for me in the sense that some disgusting/ignorant things are said in that song . . . BUT the protagonist in the song clearly acknowledges frustration with things he doesn't understand. It's not a white power anthem, it's a somber, helpless tune. . . . a small town white boy who doesn't know right from wrong.   It's really a shame in the sense that from a musical perspective it is one of their finest songs. He could have replaced "n word" with "hustler" and massaged the second verse to be a little less acidic . . . but that's '88 Axl.   

As a child of the 80s . . . there were WAY worse things said on every rap tape I owned.  It was a really vulgar and decadent time. 

 

 

[mr. address]

9 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

I'll never understand why people say "n word" you may as well just say n i g g e r. It's like in Harry Potter with the whole 'he who must not be named' thing. You just give the word power.

Because for hundreds of years that word was the last thing that many people heard before a dog chewed off their genitals, or they were hung for a crime that didn't happen. I could go on here but you get the idea. Not saying it properly acknowledges how acidic it is, while saying it implies comfort with its legacy. 

 

[mr. address]

2 hours ago, Oldest Goat said:

Would you go up to a black person and say "Hey. You're an N-word." No, you wouldn't.

Fuck no, I wouldn't! I tend to call people by their names, not racial epithets.  Would you like it better if I walked around yelling racial slurs at people? 

As a white man who grew up in the southern USA surrounded by dear friends of many colors . . . my personal experience has been as follows: 

1. I have never known a single black person who would ever be cool with any white person using that word, period.  Just my experience. 

2. The white people I grew up around who were comfortable using that word were either completely racist or "neutral" which is a close second. 

I'm not saying that you're racist or whatever, you can say whatever you want.  I'm not offended by people who use that word, I just choose not to use it.  I don't understand why snowflakes get so bent out of shape by a word they can't use . . . like how long is the list of things white people aren't allowed to do? There is one thing on the list! If it's "just a word" you should have no problem avoiding it. 

BTW: I love Louis CK (warts n all heheheh), but a video of a white dude using that word to make a room full of white people laugh isn't helping your case.  I understand what he (and you) are saying, but as a matter of respect I tend to defer to the opinions of those most affected.  The same way I wouldn't show a video of car crashes to someone whose sister died in a car crash or something.  

Now, in the case of one W. Axl Rose who just-so-happened to use some nasty turns of phrase in the space of an insanely great song (featuring fucking PEAK Izzy rhythm guitar I might add) . . . it's pretty obvious the song isn't meant to be some kind of hate anthem.  Axl obviously regretted it, apologized sincerely . . . even toyed with removing it from re-presses of Lies in the late-90s.  

It's complicated just like everything else, and I'm not scared of complication and nuance. Over-simplification of complex issues is how the elite divide the masses.  I refuse to toil for breadcrumbs in the vulgar throes of manufactured division, forced to choose to between one side or the other.  I want side A to fuck side B and keep me out of it. 

That is all I have to say on this matter. 

 

[EvanG]

On 30-11-2017 at 7:19 PM, soon said:

 

It was also cool that GNR's anti-Trump stuff didnt hurt them either.  

 

Almost every person in showbizz has been negative about Trump, why would GnR get in trouble for that innocent little stunt they pulled?

[Draguns]

2 hours ago, tremolo said:

What is absolutely stupid is pretending words are the problem, labeling them as good or bad, when words in themselves have no power. It’s the context and intention that matter.

I agree with this statement. I hate the use of crippled or handicap. Handicap was used in the 80s a lot and has a negative connotation to it for me. I'm glad that a person with a disability is more in use. The person should come first before the disability. I think the millennial came up with abilities, which is cool.

Earlier this year I had gotten into a debate with a few  of you regarding the disability issue. To me, it seemed like either people didn't understand  the experience of someone who had a disability or was born after the Americans with Disabilities Act became law. As a kid from the 80s, I experienced a world where there was no ADA. I had to fight for my education and to be in a public school. I had to fight for acceptance with my peers. To this very day, I still have to. We have come a long way but work still needs to be done.

Furthermore, I've experienced discrimination by being a first generation American. I used to and still do joke with my dad that Axl wants immigrants  like him out of this country. In all seriousness, my parents are American citizens who came from a foreign country. I've had to help them with American laws and writing letters for them along with other things. You have no idea how many times I've heard people tell my parents that they are immigrants that should go back to their country or that they don't belong in this country. My mother was threatened by an ignorant social security case worker that she would get deported. She accused my mother of being here illegally.  My mother worked and is retired. All she wanted to do was fix a typo of her birthday in a letter sent by Social Security. I had to talk with her manager and the social security case manager was suspended for this incident. 

Lastly, from my experience it seems to me that those who hate political correctness use it as a crutch and are the first ones to be offended by something. I've seen it from family members, friends, colleagues, acquaintances, and strangers.  I'm neutral on PC. There are somethings that have been beneficial about it while other things have been negative about it.