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Thoughts on Double Talkin Jive


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I've had an endless discussion about the guitar solo on here... I remain uncertain who played it. It has Slash's tone, but it's not played how Slash would normally play a solo like this, the way he plays it live every single time. It sounds more like Izzy's playing and he did get credit for it, but the booklet has more mistakes in it. Maybe Slash just had an off day.

As for the song... it's alright, definitely not a highlight on the album. And Axl's vocals suck. Like many background vocals on UYI, he shouldn't have added them, in my opinion.

Edited by EvanG
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It was my favourite song by Guns growing up as I had Illusion 1 before Appetite. I'd go as far to say it is the song that made me an admirer of the band.

36 minutes ago, ToonGuns said:

 

Massive favourite of mine also. Love it. And Don't Damn Me also (solo definitely is Slash!).

Not trying to disagree, just a bit of friendly debate. I enjoy this topic.

It absolutely could be Slash. Epic solo. I just think the playing is a little off, and given the differences with the live version (which was being played live that way around the time the album was released - so why wasn't the album version more epic like that, could have been a killer album track!) and the fact that Izzy is credited on the album and wrote the song, I sway more towards Izzy.

Hopefully one day we'll find out... Happy to be proven wrong.

Out of interest in what area of the toon are you based?

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On 12/7/2017 at 7:16 PM, AxlSlashthebest said:

and like I used to said I'm almost sure Slash try new riff at the begening. this version is the best . have a look at 0.52. We will have that on a new album. don't ask me witch one !!!!

 

My favourite version, too.  Funnily enough, all 3 soundcheck jams had DTJ vibe about them so if there is new Guns music, you may well be right about hearing that riff again, or a version of it anyway.  

Duff's bass makes this song - it doesn't get talked about, as usual, but just you try taking that bass away and the song falls down no matter how good the rest of the players are or Izzy's vocals.  Without that bass line DTJ has no pulse.  

That said, Izzy is vital here.  If Duff gives the song life, Izzy gives it personality, both through vocals and lyrics.   I wish he'd been allowed more singing duties in the band.  No reason he couldn't have been a more regular vocalist (apart from Axl's ego).  One of the few times where I believe you could take away Axl's vocal presence and the song would not suffer.  It's not a very Axl-esque tune.  Makes me think it's Izzy on the guitar solo but who knows...

@soon this is like our My Michelle discussion.  Is it Izzy or Slash playing the dive-bomb/slide guitar on that?  I have never heard anyone play that slide guitar sound ever since Izzy was in the band, so makes me think Izzy was the one responsible for that.  For the soundboard show in LA, somebody was trying hard and failing to play that sound - must have been Richard.

 

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2 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

It was my favourite song by Guns growing up as I had Illusion 1 before Appetite. I'd go as far to say it is the song that made me an admirer of the band.

Out of interest in what area of the toon are you based?

Originally from the toon but now based down south. Miss the north though! Saw GnR in Newcastle arena 2006, the famous coin throwing gig.

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22 hours ago, ToonGuns said:

A career defining solo? Are we not getting a bit carried away?! Absolutely fantastic solo / song etc, and one of my faves... But career defining? On a deep cut album track only fans know about? It isn't NR or SCOM. Playing live and playing in a studio setting are two totally different things, live Slash was the lead guitarist. Why didn't Izzy sing it live then? Does that mean Axl sings on the album?

A career defining solo for Izzy?, absolutely. To write the rythm track, the lyrics AND lay a fantastic solo down to top it off would be a career highlight for any player on such a fantastic song.... and besides you just called it epic yourself, Izzy's not really known for his epic solos. Also Izzy always played his leads live back in the day so why wouldn't he play that one?. There are far more reasons to say its not Izzy than saying it is for me.

Izzy did sing it live btw

 

Edited by Silverburst80
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On 06/12/2017 at 9:05 PM, Izzymacbeth said:

Nope, Izzy doesn't play on Civil War, The Garden, Shotgun Blues or Locomotive. Those are the songs Slash doubled up on rhythm for on the record with the exception of Shotgun Blues as Axl played the left channel rhythm guitar on that. 

Izzy is uncredited on Civil War but he plays on it, if you listen carefully to the left channel you can hear Izzy's guitar, it has his tone and style of playing, totally different from Slash's style, but Slash do some overdubs on clean guitar. Coma is the opposite, Izzy is credited but Slash do all the guitar parts.

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9 hours ago, Silverburst80 said:

A career defining solo for Izzy?, absolutely. To write the rythm track, the lyrics AND lay a fantastic solo down to top it off would be a career highlight for any player on such a fantastic song.... and besides you just called it epic yourself, Izzy's not really known for his epic solos. Also Izzy always played his leads live back in the day so why wouldn't he play that one?. There are far more reasons to say its not Izzy than saying it is for me.

Izzy did sing it live btw

 

Good live version! Yeah I know he sang it live a couple of times... I meant regularly.

On the solo point I suppose its all about context. Izzy has done so much in and out of Guns I was just querying whether he would really consider the DTJ solo the definition of his career! I think we are on the same page, just coming at it from different ways if you know what I mean. Either way: Epic solo!! 🎸

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10 hours ago, jacdaniel said:

The solo is defenitely Slash. Nowhere near his live solo but 100% him. Izzy wasn't much of a lead player and why would he be using Slashs set up/guitar?

He isn't the lead guitarist that Slash is, that's right, and that would explain why the solo is lacking on the album version.

Using Slash's gear wouldn't be that odd... I've used other band members' gear in the studio because it sounded better for a particular song. It's not uncommon.

Edited by EvanG
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5 minutes ago, EvanG said:

He isn't the lead guitarist that Slash is, that's right, and that would explain why the solo is lacking on the album version.

Using Slash's gear wouldn't be that odd... I've used other band members gear in the studio because it sounded better for a particular song. It's not uncommon.

Remember the solo fades out on the album, who knows how long it could have gone on for in the studio. Perhaps they thought that point of the solo was the best place to blend it into the flamenco section, the whole thing is just perfect in its execution to me.

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2 hours ago, Silverburst80 said:

Remember the solo fades out on the album, who knows how long it could have gone on for in the studio. Perhaps they thought that point of the solo was the best place to blend it into the flamenco section, the whole thing is just perfect in its execution to me.

Sure, maybe that would have convinced me that it's Slash indeed. There are just several moments in the solo that doesn't sound like Slash to me. Especially at the end when the song is reaching its climax, the drums and bass are speeding up, and you can hear the guitar trying to do that too, but it fails... Slash normally doesn't fail at those moments, he doesn't when he is playing that solo live, so why does he on the record? I'm not saying the solo sucks, but Slash would have played it more epic. It sounds more like someone who is not great at playing lead. But again, maybe he had an off day.

Edited by EvanG
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It's really whatever you prefer, isn't it? I don't like shredding just for the sake of shredding, but at the end of the song, the last 15 seconds before the acoustic part starts, I would have liked the guitar to shred instead of 'swallowing' the notes like that.

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1 hour ago, WhenYou'reTalkinToYourself said:

The only thing in which the studio version lacks is the length, the shredding (which is not always a good thing).

I've been listening to it again and again and can't see why you consider it poorly executed. I find it great. And it screams 'Slash' to me.

I agree, like I said, I don't like shredding just for the sake of it. I wouldn't have liked this solo at all if it would have been a shredding exercise, but there are a couple of moments that lend itself to playing faster, especially because it's a flamenco style solo. For example, in the last ten seconds or so, the one who played this solo could have easily played a lot more notes in those bars and it would have benefited the solo, in my opinion. Basically how Slash playes it live, it sounds more epic, or however you want to call it.

2 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

'Swallowing the notes'? I don't know what you mean.

I don't know the right phrase for it, at least not in English. When you're trying to play fast and you play 10 notes instead of 20 notes when you are playing a scale. It's like he's missing a couple of notes when he's building up or trying to play faster, especially towards the end of the solo. I've never heard him play it that minimal live.

Edited by EvanG
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11 minutes ago, EvanG said:

I agree, like I said, I don't like shredding just for the sake of it. I wouldn't have liked this solo at all if it would have been a shredding exercise, but there are a couple of moments that lend itself to faster playing, especially because it's a flamenco style solo. For example, in the last ten seconds or so, the one who played this solo could have easily played a lot more notes in those bars and it would have benefited the solo, in my opinion. Basically how Slash playes it live, it sounds more epic, or however you want to call it.

I don't know the right phrase for it, at least not in English. When you're trying to play fast and you play 10 notes while you could play 20 notes instead when you're playing a scale. It's like he's missing a couple of notes when he's building up or trying to play faster, especially towards the end of the solo. I've never heard him play it that minimal live.

I agree with you -  it's hard to explain isn't it?  

I can't put my finger on why, that solo just never has sounded particularly Slash to me, either in execution or tone.  It's too...restrained for Slash...and too clean and crisp, which is a tone/style Slash has never really been comfortable with as evidenced on this tour when he had so much trouble with Robin's TWAT solo - 8 attempts to nail that - got it on the last show though.

We need @soon - he's so good at explaining sound! ^_^

Edited by MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle
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9 hours ago, EvanG said:

Sure, maybe that would have convinced me that it's Slash indeed. There are just several moments in the solo that doesn't sound like Slash to me. Especially at the end when the song is reaching its climax, the drums and bass are speeding up, and you can hear the guitar trying to do that too, but it fails... Slash normally doesn't fail at those moments, he doesn't when he is playing that solo live, so why does he on the record? I'm not saying the solo sucks, but Slash would have played it more epic. It sounds more like someone who is not great at playing lead. But again, maybe he had an off day.

Well i guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder as they say, again for me it's just perfect as is.Slash improvs live are face melting as well and i love them just as much. I just think Slash focused more on those big suspended notes on DTJ in the studio, though totally different in style he did something similar on My Michelle where its quite a lumbering solo (letting the those bends ring out) over a hard driving rythm and that worked too.....i just noticed MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle mentioned this as well its another solo you wouldn't expect from Slash and done on and SG apparently!

Edited by Silverburst80
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This is a from a interview Slash gave in 1992: "On the Illusion albums, Izzy Stradlin is credited with rhythm guitar while you're credited with lead and rhythm. How does that break down any given track?" Slash's answer: "It's simple. Izzy, even on the songs he wrote, put on a very bare-bones guitar part -- just basic chords. And sometimes, very rarely, a single-note melody. He has ONE guitar solo on Illusion I -- at THE BEGINNING OF 'BACK OF BITCH' ". If Slash says that the only solo Izzy did on the UYI I was the intro solo of "Back of Bitch", we can conclude that Slash did the solo of "Double Talkin' Jive". https://www.guitarworld.com/gw-archive/slash-talks-guitars-and-guns-n-roses-1992-guitar-world-interivew

Edited by sousadias
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I have always just seen the solo in Double Talkin' Jive as a quintessential example of the Slash 'epic' style. I do not hear any note I'd want to change. I honestly do not understand the viewpoint here, that it is somehow substandard or has notes which are misplaced; it is as if you are discussing something completely different. 

It was one of the solos which made me a guitar player!!

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4 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

I have always just seen the solo in Double Talkin' Jive as a quintessential example of the Slash 'epic' style. I do not hear any note I'd want to change. I honestly do not understand the viewpoint here, that it is somehow substandard or has notes which are misplaced; it is as if you are discussing something completely different. 

I wouldn't want to change any notes either, I would have liked to hear a few more notes in a couple of bars, the way he plays it live. It just sounds cooler. But it's subjective though, some prefer the live version, others the album version.

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53 minutes ago, EvanG said:

I wouldn't want to change any notes either, I would have liked to hear a few more notes in a couple of bars, the way he plays it live. It just sounds cooler. But it's subjective though, some prefer the live version, others the album version.

I do not prefer either. I just see the studio version as being a template for the live version. It is a rather improvised solo irrespective like all the great Slash solos; there is no distinct 'live version', separated through some great divide from its studio predecessor. The obvious difference is the fade-in/out which introduces the acoustic solo. Obviously when Slash plays it live he is rather encompassing both the electric and acoustic solo so has a larger scope with which to improvise. 

Edited by DieselDaisy
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6 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

I do not prefer either. I just see the studio version as being a template for the live version. It is a rather improvised solo irrespective like all the great Slash solos; there is no distinct 'live version', separated through some great divide from its studio predecessor. The obvious difference is the fade-in/out which introduces the acoustic solo. Obviously when Slash plays it live he is rather encompassing both the electric and acoustic solo so has a larger scope with which to improvise. 

Yes, but within that template you hear him 'shredding', playing a lot of notes, in every live version, which he refrains from doing on the album version, and that is what I would have liked to hear on the album version as well. A flamenco style guitar solo without playing a lot of notes in certain parts of the solo is rather boring to me.

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1 minute ago, EvanG said:

Yes, but within that template you hear him 'shredding', playing a lot of notes, in every live version, which he refrains from doing on the album version, and that is what I would have liked to hear on the album version as well. A flamenco style guitar solo without playing a lot of notes in certain parts of the solo is rather boring to me.

Slash is not a great shredder though. You also have to remember that there is the acoustic solo which takes over. 

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He's not, but it's not like he can't play fast at all, he does that in most of his songs. I mentioned this several times, in the last ten seconds of the solo before the acoustic section comes in, I would have liked to hear the guitar play faster while it is building up and that doesn't happen. Live he always plays many notes in that part of the solo. It just would have made the album version even more epic, in my opinion.

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