The Religion/Spirituality Thread

[Len Cnut]

7 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

That was his sister that though, who reworked his writings after his death to reflect militarism and national socialism. Usually younger sisters merely develop a penchant for boy bands!

Yeah cuz she was well onside with the nazi's.  The ridiculous thing is that a great deal of that ubermensch stuff was just about overcoming your shortcomings, concocted by a man who was quite sickly most of his adult life, Nietschze used his own mind and his own will to overcome his own bouts of depression and it kinda partly sprouted from there, thats borderline self help stuff.

[DieselDaisy]

2 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

Yeah cuz she was well onside with the nazi's.  The ridiculous thing is that a great deal of that ubermensch stuff was just about overcoming your shortcomings, concocted by a man who was quite sickly most of his adult life, Nietschze used his own mind and his own will to overcome his own bouts of depression and it kinda partly sprouted from there, thats borderline self help stuff.

She joined the NSDAP in 1930. Hitler attended her funeral (she died in 1935). 

[Len Cnut]

1 minute ago, DieselDaisy said:

She joined the NSDAP in 1930. Hitler attended her funeral (she died in 1935). 

The man hated anti-semitism too, thought it ridiculous, fell out with Wagner, in part, over that shit.  

[DieselDaisy]

6 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

The man hated anti-semitism too, thought it ridiculous, fell out with Wagner, in part, over that shit.  

Wagner's antisemitism began because of professional jealously over Meyerbeer. Hitler was close friends with the Wagner Clan at Bayreuth including Cosima before she died in 1930. The Wagner clan were some of his most prestigious early patrons. He liked these antisemitic old dames haha. Cosima was the daughter of Franz Liszt incidentally, Wagner's second wife. 

[DieselDaisy]

Just realised, I make it sound like Liszt was Wagner's second wife there haha. Well, there have been questions on Wagner's sexuality? Liszt was of course very red-blooded, even into old age.

I of course meant Cosima, who became Wagner's second wife, was Liszt's daughter.  

[Iron MikeyJ]

6 hours ago, Len Cnut said:

Doctors do that?  Damn..

That's one of the reasons why they can perform all these "tests" on the child while it's still in the womb. Then you can KNOW if your child is healthy or not, and if it's not they subtly remind you that abortion is an option. Which not even just for those that are severely disabled, but even those with down syndrome. Even though that child would have a disability, they could still lead a pretty productive life. What's even worse than the fact they "offer" these types of services, but that a lot of people actually go through with it, especially of they find something "wrong" with the baby.

Our daughter was born with a severe brain bleed. My wife was even told that if she had been born at the University of Michigan hospital they wouldnt of even tried to save her, they would of let her die. It just so happened that we were at a trauma hospital, so they gave it a go. But ya, depending on the hospital they wont even try. 

Edited December 16, 2018 by Iron MikeyJ

[SoulMonster]

22 hours ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

@SoulMonster,

God IS good. You have to look beyond what is right in front of you though. Which as an atheist, I understand that is difficult. When it comes to things like sick kids, it's easy to see the negative aspects of it, only the human side. 

As a Christian I see beyond just the suffering of this world. I also know that those that suffer on earth are rewarded in heaven. So while I also feel sympathy for sick children (the correct word is sympathy not empathy. In order to feel empathy you HAVE to of gone through it yourself. So unless you yourself were a sick child, it's not possible for you to have empathy towards them. What you are feeling is sympathy. Back on topic). The rewards that awaits these children in the next life will be SO great. No more suffering, no more pain. They will finally be free. They are also about as close to Holy as one can be, even if they dont believe. They are just SO pure, SO innocent. That's beautiful unto itself. 

I would also add that the impact these children make on the lives of those around them can NOT be understated. Let's say that mom or dad (or perhaps both) always struggled with bravery or confidence. I cant imagine how much personal bravery they will get after watching their child be so brave themselves. It's not always easy to see the positives from a tragedy, but they are there. For me personally, my mother died when I was 15 and I pretty much had to fend for myself after (yes I had a father, but we've always been estranged). So while it was VERY hard for the first 10 years or so, I am a better, stronger person now for going through that. It has also made me a better father and I ALWAYS put my family first. I wouldnt be the man I am today, had my mother lived. That was my personal cross to bare. We all have them. But struggle and suffering are a part of the process, and yes good will come from them if you seek it.

So yes GOD IS good, and despite the tragedy that these children and their families are going through, a lot of good WILL come from it. Besides the faithful dont view this world as the end. So we have faith, hope, and belief that we will see our loved ones again. 

This is just you hoping. And that is exactly what I said. A fervent hope that at some point it will be revealed that yes, god IS good despite what we see here on earth.

[arnold layne]

@Iron MikeyJ, you know there have been people that have been pronounced  clinically dead in hospitals before and said that there is literally nothing when you die, right?

Plenty of those articles are available through a quick Google search. 

[soon]

6 minutes ago, arnold layne said:

@Iron MikeyJ, you know there have been people that have been pronounced  clinically dead in hospitals before and said that there is literally nothing when you die, right?

Plenty of those articles are available through a quick Google search. 

That doesnt in anyway contradict what he said. It also doesnt contradict what scripture says about death.

Maybe before googling anecdotally based articles on death to compare with scripture, one should know scripture.

[DieselDaisy]

People tend to see a ''white light'' when they die, don't they?

[soon]

Q- What did you see when you were dead?

A- Cant really recall anything, I was dead after all.

[SoulMonster]

9 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

People tend to see a ''white light'' when they die, don't they?

There are lots of anecdotal evidence for that, yes. And goddicts will often use that to imply there is an afterlife. A more naturalistic explanation is just stuff that happens in your brain during severe oxygen depletion. There is also anecdotal evidence that suggests near-death "out-of-body" experiences are just brain-conjured fantasies too.

So any logical conclusion would be that we can't know what happens after we die. It is not a falsifiable scientific hypothesis to test. That being, said, any afterlife would violate the laws of nature as we know them, and hence believing in an afterlife is as reasonable as belivieving in any other supernatural phenomena for which we have no real evidence, like ghosts.

[DieselDaisy]

52 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

There are lots of anecdotal evidence for that, yes. And goddicts will often use that to imply there is an afterlife. A more naturalistic explanation is just stuff that happens in your brain during severe oxygen depletion. There is also anecdotal evidence that suggests near-death "out-of-body" experiences are just brain-conjured fantasies too.

So any logical conclusion would be that we can't know what happens after we die. It is not a falsifiable scientific hypothesis to test. That being, said, any afterlife would violate the laws of nature as we know them, and hence believing in an afterlife is as reasonable as belivieving in any other supernatural phenomena for which we have no real evidence, like ghosts.

Or it could be that they've seen a white light.

[Iron MikeyJ]

Let me start by saying that I have an EMT degree and my wife is an RN, so between the two of us, we know about medicine (probably a fair amount more than most). Having said that, MOST of if not ALL what people think they know about medicine is just plain WRONG. 

For starters, EVERYTHING you have ever seen or heard on TV or in films in regards to a defibrillator is just plain incorrect. It is NOT some magic device that can bring people back from the dead. If someone flatlines (no heartbeat) the defibrillator is USELESS. What it DOES do is shock the heart back into a normal rhythm during atrial fibrillation (heart attack). During a heart attack, the heart does this "shaking" type of rhythm, and the "shock" from the defibrillator can bring it back into a normal rhythm. Having said that, you STILL have not flatlined, even during a heart attack it will still register a beat, just an extremely erratic one. 

What CAN bring back someone from a flatline is a shot of epinephrine in the heart. But it HAS to happen ASAP. If someone has been in a state of flatline for (5 mins or longer) they are dead. The epinephrine wouldnt do anything at that point. Even 5 minutes is a stretch, like it needs to happen RIGHT AWAY. So even after getting a shot of epinephrine and being pronounced dead for 5 minutes or longer, if the patient comes back from that, it can ONLY be categorized as a miracle. It goes against all scientific understanding to come back from that, but it does happen. Just EXTREMLY rare.

I say all of this because 90% of the population is ignorant when it comes to the actual medical community. So when you hear someone say "I was pronounced dead and this is what it was like..." I would be very careful about. Did the doctor ACTUALLY say "You were pronounced dead" or were you shocked by the defibrillator? Most people that think they were dead, because they got shocked by the defibrillator, think about what happens on TV or in movies. Which they were NOT dead, they NEVER flatlined, they are confused. That doesnt mean all of them are confused, some of them might be TRUE stories. But I would need more than just their story to truly believe it. I would need to hear it from a doctor that they were truly pronounced dead.

[Len Cnut]

I’ve always thought that religion and its whole purpose on this earth amounts to a fear of death.  Just fuckin’ not being able to handle the fact that we have no greater purpose and, all in all, we ain’t really worth shit in and of ourselves, the only value is that which others put on us.  Its often referred to as ‘explaining life’.  That’s all it is though man, we’re just a self perpetuating thing, like a virus and the only function of the good works we do is to make the world a better place.  

[Iron MikeyJ]

12 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

I’ve always thought that religion and its whole purpose on this earth amounts to a fear of death.  Just fuckin’ not being able to handle the fact that we have no greater purpose and, all in all, we ain’t really worth shit in and of ourselves, the only value is that which others put on us.  Its often referred to as ‘explaining life’.  That’s all it is though man, we’re just a self perpetuating thing, like a virus and the only function of the good works we do is to make the world a better place.  

The funny thing though, is many religious people it has the opposite effect. The only thing that scares me about death, is how it'll effect my family. My own mortality though, I'm pretty secure with. We (humans) were not made for this world, we were made for the next one. So in a sense, yes we are virus. I also feel that when it's our time, it's our time. We dont know WHEN that is, but it's all a part of THE plan. So why sit and worry about it?

[Len Cnut]

Like my man Keith Richards said, what's the rush?

[soon]

14 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

I’ve always thought that religion and its whole purpose on this earth amounts to a fear of death.  Just fuckin’ not being able to handle the fact that we have no greater purpose and, all in all, we ain’t really worth shit in and of ourselves, the only value is that which others put on us.  Its often referred to as ‘explaining life’.  That’s all it is though man, we’re just a self perpetuating thing, like a virus and the only function of the good works we do is to make the world a better place.  

But then theres all those 'no afterlife' religions. Like Satanism or Church of the Universe? Those cheeky bastards get in the way of generalizations!

[Len Cnut]

22 minutes ago, soon said:

But then theres all those 'no afterlife' religions. Like Satanism or Church of the Universe? Those cheeky bastards get in the way of generalizations!

I should've been clearer, the judeo christian abrahamic whatshisfaces   In my defence though, the ones you've mentioned (well Satanism anyway, never heard of the Universe one), by and large, when people are talking about religion they ain't talking about them, those are generally considered a joke.  Not that the others aren't too by a great many but they have to be taken seriously on some level because of how prevalent they are and their influence not only on contemporary society but human history too.

[soon]

31 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

I should've been clearer, the judeo christian abrahamic whatshisfaces   In my defence though, the ones you've mentioned (well Satanism anyway, never heard of the Universe one), by and large, when people are talking about religion they ain't talking about them, those are generally considered a joke.  Not that the others aren't too by a great many but they have to be taken seriously on some level because of how prevalent they are and their influence not only on contemporary society but human history too.

You might actually like the Church of the Universe:

 You could bring a much needed non-hippie attitude the proceedings! 

The purpose of Abrahamic Traditions is to better know God and to live inside Gods purpose. So then, someone like yourself might say 'but I dont believe in God.' Cool, but does your position on God necessarily shed new light on the purpose(s) of Abrahamic Religion, in this case the idea that religion exists out of a fear of death? 

 

 

[SoulMonster]

15 minutes ago, soon said:

The purpose of Abrahamic Traditions is to better know God and to live inside Gods purpose. So then, someone like yourself might say 'but I dont believe in God.' Cool, but does your position on God necessarily shed new light on the purpose(s) of Abrahamic Religion, in this case the idea that religion exists out of a fear of death?

Len wasn't talking about the purpose of abrahamic religions (as purported by the believers) but the actual reasons why people believe in gods.

[HOOSIER GUNZ]

Someone close to me once described an experience that seemed very vivid to them whilst in the grips of a near death experience. They described it as floating above themselves, able to look at themselves, and flying across desert sands with mountains in the far distance.  They've described it at being in the astro plane where your spirit goes between the living and the dying...interesting.

[EvanG]

On 16-12-2018 at 11:30 PM, HOOSIER GUNZ said:

They described it as floating above themselves, able to look at themselves, and flying across desert sands with mountains in the far distance.  

I experience this every time I mix a bottle of Jager with some fine wine.

[wasted]

Only religious experience I’ve had is after watching Enter the Void I felt like that is it. Like this world isn’t or doesn’t matter. We are born into the void, then we leave the void. And somehow that is good to know. 

[soon]

Got my first Christmas gift!!! "Oh, thank the maker!"

12 disc set, loaded with new features and documentaries (as of 2015). Original theatrical releases! It's got that textured cover thing. I've never owned the Prequels and its just in time since Disney is about to embrace that era!