The Religion/Spirituality Thread

[Dazey]

2 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

Probably.  I would most likely want to find out more about it, their inner feelings on why they believe in unicorns, etc.  I don't think I would laugh at them and criticize them for it, though.  

Yeah, but the conversation would pretty much go as far as “I believe in unicorns” “Really? Show me a unicorn then!” “Ah, I can’t” “Oh well in that case I don’t believe you.”

And that’s where the debate should really end.  

[Ace Nova]

11 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

So tell me about your inner feelings that make you believe in unicorns gods, Kasanova?

*In God, not "gods".

In the shortest, simplest terms, it feels good to be humble and give credit to a higher power.  At the same time, it's frustrating when I know I failed in areas of faith.  But the hope that believing in God brings, typically makes things better....both in a Spiritual sense and in a very real, physical sense.  I'm far from perfect and I have many things I need to work on but faith seems to make the road more manageable...for me personally, anyway.  

Edited July 4, 2019 by Kasanova King

[Ace Nova]

14 minutes ago, Dazey said:

Yeah, but the conversation would pretty much go as far as “I believe in unicorns” “Really? Show me a unicorn then!” “Ah, I can’t” “Oh well in that case I don’t believe you.”

And that’s where the debate should really end.  

I guess I'm more inclined to be "open minded" than some.  At the end of the day, if it makes them happy, who am I to tell them that unicorns don't exist?  As far as I would be concerned, maybe they do and maybe it's me that doesn't see them.  

Edited July 4, 2019 by Kasanova King

[DieselDaisy]

3 hours ago, Dazey said:

 I don’t need religion to admit that I’m not perfect. I shit myself last week. Surely that’s sufficient evidence in itself?  

You really do suffer problems with the innards!

[Dazey]

3 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

You really do suffer problems with the innards!

I’m from the same area and generation as you. Surely you can empathise?  

[spunko12345]

21 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

Probably.  I would most likely want to find out more about it, their inner feelings on why they believe in unicorns, etc.  I don't think I would laugh at them and criticize them for it, though.  

It's not about inner feelings it's about whether they exist or not. If I feel and have faith that unicorns exist is irrelevant. Proof is what we need.

[SoulMonster]

1 minute ago, Kasanova King said:

*In God, not "gods".

In the shortest, simplest terms, it feels good to be humble and give credit to a higher power.  At the same time, it's frustrating when I know I failed in areas of faith.  But the hope that believing in God brings, typically makes things better....both in a Spiritual sense and very real, physical sense.  I'm far from perfect and I have many things I need to work on but faith seems to make the road more manageable...for me personally, anyway.  

But why not be humble and give credit to something that you know is real? Give to charity. Support sciences. That feels good too. And you don't have to perform intellectual suicide while doing it.

So you believe because the hope that there is a god is comforting and helps you? Well, I appreciate the notion, but to me, I wouldn't be able to dispense rationality for the benefits of hope. Like, I wouldn't be able to believe in Santa Clause on will if I thought that would give me nice presents. As soon as you know Santa Clause is imaginary, the choice to believe goes out the window...or up the chimney if you prefer.

So the conclusion is that you already have the belief, it comes first, and then hope and comfort and safety that comes along with your particular version of faith prevents you from rejecting it whenever your rational side starts questioning it. It is a barrier to question it honestly. It is self-preservation. You suppress logic to keep on reaping emotional rewards.

Which brings me back to what I have always said: The difference between believing in unicorns and believing in gods is not the amount of supporting evidence (zero in both cases) but that the latter tend to entice believers with benefits like belonging and comfort and an escape from infinite death and so on. Which is why belief in gods is so pervasive while belief in unicorns have died out (if it ever existed).

Which brings me to evolution (yay!). You can look at different belief systems as competing things and those with the highest fitness (those able to spread most efficiently) tend to survive and become more popular. Thus we would theorize what type of belief system would win out in the end, and that would be the one that simply offered the most benefits to supporters, and was the most aggressive towards other competing systems. Hence some religions have died out, because they didn't offer enough and not because they made more sense. Or because they were too friendly and didn't do enough to fight other systems. Which is why christianity is so popular: it offer hope in an afterlife, the belief in a good god that is there for you, and is intrinsically opposed to other religions (at least originally). It checks everything except making any sense (but you can't have it all, i.e. you can't both offer eternal reward in heaven AND make sense).

[Ace Nova]

1 minute ago, spunko12345 said:

It's not about inner feelings it's about whether they exist or not. If I feel and have faith that unicorns exist is irrelevant. Proof is what we need.

It actually is a feeling for most people with faith.  Feeling that God is present within your life.  If there was scientific proof of God, people wouldn't really need faith.   But for those that have true faith, there is little difference between showing "physical proof" vs them knowing that God is present.  Faith is like another dimension to those that truly have it.   That's the best way I can explain it.  

[spunko12345]

2 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

It actually is a feeling for most people with faith.  Feeling that God is present within your life.  If there was scientific proof of God, people wouldn't really need faith.   But for those that have true faith, there is little difference between showing "physical proof" vs them knowing that God is present.  Faith is like another dimension to those that truly have it.   That's the best way I can explain it.  

Why don't I feel it then?

[Ace Nova]

7 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

But why not be humble and give credit to something that you know is real? Give to charity. Support sciences. That feels good too. And you don't have to perform intellectual suicide while doing it.

So you believe because the hope that there is a god is comforting and helps you? Well, I appreciate the notion, but to me, I wouldn't be able to dispense rationality for the benefits of hope. Like, I wouldn't be able to believe in Santa Clause on will if I thought that would give me nice presents. As soon as you know Santa Clause is imaginary, the choice to believe goes out the window...or up the chimney if you prefer.

So the conclusion is that you already have the belief, it comes first, and then hope and comfort and safety that comes along with your particular version of faith prevents you from rejecting it whenever your rational side starts questioning it. It is a barrier to question it honestly. It is self-preservation. You suppress logic to keep on reaping emotional rewards.

Which brings me back to what I have always said: The difference between believing in unicorns and believing in gods is not the amount of supporting evidence (zero in both cases) but that the latter tend to entice believers with benefits like belonging and comfort and an escape from infinite death and so on. Which is why belief in gods is so pervasive while belief in unicorns have died out (if it ever existed).

Which brings me to evolution (yay!). You can look at different belief systems as competing things and those with the highest fitness (those able to spread most efficiently) tend to survive and become more popular. Thus we would theorize what type of belief system would win out in the end, and that would be the one that simply offered the most benefits to supporters, and was the most aggressive towards other competing systems. Hence some religions have died out, because they didn't offer enough and not because they made more sense. Or because they were too friendly and didn't do enough to fight other systems. Which is why christianity is so popular: it offer hope in an afterlife, the belief in a good god that is there for you, and is intrinsically opposed to other religions (at least originally). It checks everything except making any sense (but you can't have it all, i.e. you can't both offer eternal reward in heaven AND make sense).

I give to charity and I support sciences...and it feels good too!  As far as faith goes, it's 100% completely logical to me as well.  It doesn't make it any harder or easier to believe...but it certainly is logical to me.  I couldn't fathom living in a universe devoid of some sort of higher power...I'm not sure how some of you atheists do it, tbh.

 

 

[Dazey]

4 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

It actually is a feeling for most people with faith.  Feeling that God is present within your life.  If there was scientific proof of God, people wouldn't really need faith.   But for those that have true faith, there is little difference between showing "physical proof" vs them knowing that God is present.  Faith is like another dimension to those that truly have it.   That's the best way I can explain it.  

But why should your feeling take priority over my need for hard evidence when women are being denied reproductive autonomy?

[Ace Nova]

2 minutes ago, spunko12345 said:

Why don't I feel it then?

I can't answer that.   Only you can answer that.  Have you ever opened yourself up to believing in God?

[spunko12345]

I was taught religion at school to a certain extent. Not rammed down my throat but I remember singing hymns in the morning and being told about god. But as I grew up I simply thought my way out of it. It doesn't hold up to even the mildest cross examination if you have any sort of inquisitive mind.

Edited July 4, 2019 by spunko12345

[SoulMonster]

3 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

I give to charity and I support sciences...and it feels good too!  As far as faith goes, it's 100% completely logical to me as well.  It doesn't make it any harder or easier to believe...but it certainly is logical to me.  I couldn't fathom living in a universe devoid of some sort of higher power...I'm not sure how some of you atheists do it, tbh.

How we do it? Just like you but with an internally consistent world-view devoid of supernatural nonsense. 

[Ace Nova]

Just now, Dazey said:

But why should your feeling take priority over my need for hard evidence when women are being denied reproductive autonomy?

I don't think I'm infringing on your need for hard evidence because the "hard evidence" you seek is based on faith.   It's available to you but you would need to open yourself up to believing in God.   As far as "reproductive autonomy", personally, it takes two people to create a child, last I checked, no?  So how can a woman ever have reproductive autonomy?   I mean, I guess with modern science, they can go to a lab, etc...but I don't think anyone is stopping them from doing that, are they?  As far as abortion goes, personally, I think it is wrong but last I checked, it's still legal around here.  

[spunko12345]

I was just at the gym this morning trying to get in shape on the trampoline and this dramatic lanky cunt kept staring at my arse being all weird.

[EvanG]

 

But seriously, I've never been to a gym in my life and I don't think I ever will.

[Len Cnut]

13 hours ago, spunko12345 said:

Why don't I feel it then?

 

5:42

[spunko12345]

37 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

I'm not being dramatic his pants were down and his ass was literally hanging out lol.

I love the fact that it was the word dramatic that you took exception to, like "Cunt" is fair comment 😂

[action]

22 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

But why not be humble and give credit to something that you know is real? Give to charity. Support sciences. That feels good too. And you don't have to perform intellectual suicide while doing it.

So you believe because the hope that there is a god is comforting and helps you? Well, I appreciate the notion, but to me, I wouldn't be able to dispense rationality for the benefits of hope. Like, I wouldn't be able to believe in Santa Clause on will if I thought that would give me nice presents. As soon as you know Santa Clause is imaginary, the choice to believe goes out the window...or up the chimney if you prefer.

So the conclusion is that you already have the belief, it comes first, and then hope and comfort and safety that comes along with your particular version of faith prevents you from rejecting it whenever your rational side starts questioning it. It is a barrier to question it honestly. It is self-preservation. You suppress logic to keep on reaping emotional rewards.

Which brings me back to what I have always said: The difference between believing in unicorns and believing in gods is not the amount of supporting evidence (zero in both cases) but that the latter tend to entice believers with benefits like belonging and comfort and an escape from infinite death and so on. Which is why belief in gods is so pervasive while belief in unicorns have died out (if it ever existed).

Which brings me to evolution (yay!). You can look at different belief systems as competing things and those with the highest fitness (those able to spread most efficiently) tend to survive and become more popular. Thus we would theorize what type of belief system would win out in the end, and that would be the one that simply offered the most benefits to supporters, and was the most aggressive towards other competing systems. Hence some religions have died out, because they didn't offer enough and not because they made more sense. Or because they were too friendly and didn't do enough to fight other systems. Which is why christianity is so popular: it offer hope in an afterlife, the belief in a good god that is there for you, and is intrinsically opposed to other religions (at least originally). It checks everything except making any sense (but you can't have it all, i.e. you can't both offer eternal reward in heaven AND make sense).

do you realise that most charities are a scam? that whenever a large disaster happens, and special events are organised to gather money, that most of the times the money reaches an unknown receiver? That most of the time, some big fat scumbag is running away with it all?

"intellectual suicide": why does it matter if you commit "intellectual suicide" as you call it? What is wrong with shutting down your mind from time to time? A man is not made to think about difficult stuff: it's fatiguing, it's depressing, and most of the time it doesn't serve any noticeable purpose. You're only going to wear yourself down, never reach a satisfying answer, and you will see life pass you by.

By thinking too much, you live too little. Life is short, don't waste it like this by delving too deep in massively pointless things like bacteria, peptides and what else have you. 

Simple stuff. a flower. the sun that gives the world nice colours. Old historical buildings like churches / castles: your ancestors have seen those exact same buildings, and now you see them too. That's stuff that makes you wonder about the true meaning of life. Good luck with your peptides and nuclei. I'm not sure what enjoyment you get out of it, but to me: it seems lifeless, pointless, and depressing.

I can sit in a church, wonder at the beautiful coloured glass, the quiteness, the pleasantly cool atmosphere on a hot summer day, the connection with something "up there". That is something you will never experience with your science books. You will never experience the wonder, you are living in a world where you stuff yourself with useless knowledge, walking around like an all knowing (in reality clueless) person putting down other people who rather find joy in the simple things.

So this is for you, @SoulMonster. my favorite flower; a yellow rose. Shame you won't experience the smell of this. But it's a start

[SoulMonster]

42 minutes ago, action said:

do you realise that most charities are a scam? that whenever a large disaster happens, and special events are organised to gather money, that most of the times the money reaches an unknown receiver? That most of the time, some big fat scumbag is running away with it all?

Heh. I stick to the most trustworthy ones.

42 minutes ago, action said:

"intellectual suicide": why does it matter if you commit "intellectual suicide" as you call it? What is wrong with shutting down your mind from time to time? A man is not made to think about difficult stuff: it's fatiguing, it's depressing, and most of the time it doesn't serve any noticeable purpose. You're only going to wear yourself down, never reach a satisfying answer, and you will see life pass you by.

You don't often come across passionate defenses of not thinking  I will give you that. 

You ask what is wrong with shutting down your mind from time to time? Well, you risk producing posts like yours.

43 minutes ago, action said:

By thinking too much, you live too little. Life is short, don't waste it like this by delving too deep in massively pointless things like bacteria, peptides and what else have you. 

I think most people are able to think and live their lives at the same time. It is probably one of the simplest forms of multitasking. But if that is a problem to you then I can understand you have to focus on one and not the other. Maybe you should have lived a little less while thinking out this post?

And I don't consider my work, and the overall global work in genetics and biotechnology, to be "massively pointless". Neither do all the benefactors of industrial and pharmaceutical biotechnology. You probably benefit in some ways, too.

47 minutes ago, action said:

Simple stuff. a flower. the sun that gives the world nice colours. Old historical buildings like churches / castles: your ancestors have seen those exact same buildings, and now you see them too. That's stuff that makes you wonder about the true meaning of life. 

No, it doesn't. I don't see a church and it makes me wonder about the true mening of life. It makes me wonder about history, architecture, geology, religion, etc, but not the true meaning of life because I have decades ago realized that there is no such thing.

And weren't you just advocating a life without thinking? I suppose it is only scientific thinking that bothers you, religious pondering is more agreable to you.

49 minutes ago, action said:

Good luck with your peptides and nuclei. I'm not sure what enjoyment you get out of it, but to me: it seems lifeless, pointless, and depressing.

Thank you. Yeah, well, it is hard to explain intellectual gratification to someone who hasn't experienced it.

50 minutes ago, action said:

I can sit in a church, wonder at the beautiful coloured glass, the quiteness, the pleasantly cool atmosphere on a hot summer day, the connection with something "up there". That is something you will never experience with your science books. You will never experience the wonder, you are living in a world where you stuff yourself with useless knowledge, walking around like an all knowing (in reality clueless) person putting down other people who rather find joy in the simple things.

True, I will never enjoy a connection with something "up there". Just like you will never enjoy the benefits of being in a relationship with a unicorn. I am sure you don't cry yourself to sleep over that one, either. 

And I don't put down people who find joy in the simple things. I love the simple things. Believing in a supernatural deity who has created the universe and may or may not interact with it in mystical ways, is not a simple thing, though. That's an intellectual absurdity I will always question. And if you happen to believe in such intellectual absurdities and you join a discussion on that very topic, then you will just have to accept and handle having such beliefs criticized. That's not me going out of my way to criticize religious people, that is you not understanding the context of where you are.

Thanks for the rose, though 

[spunko12345]

12 hours ago, action said:

do you realise that most charities are a scam? that whenever a large disaster happens, and special events are organised to gather money, that most of the times the money reaches an unknown receiver? That most of the time, some big fat scumbag is running away with it all?

"intellectual suicide": why does it matter if you commit "intellectual suicide" as you call it? What is wrong with shutting down your mind from time to time? A man is not made to think about difficult stuff: it's fatiguing, it's depressing, and most of the time it doesn't serve any noticeable purpose. You're only going to wear yourself down, never reach a satisfying answer, and you will see life pass you by.

By thinking too much, you live too little. Life is short, don't waste it like this by delving too deep in massively pointless things like bacteria, peptides and what else have you. 

Simple stuff. a flower. the sun that gives the world nice colours. Old historical buildings like churches / castles: your ancestors have seen those exact same buildings, and now you see them too. That's stuff that makes you wonder about the true meaning of life. Good luck with your peptides and nuclei. I'm not sure what enjoyment you get out of it, but to me: it seems lifeless, pointless, and depressing.

I can sit in a church, wonder at the beautiful coloured glass, the quiteness, the pleasantly cool atmosphere on a hot summer day, the connection with something "up there". That is something you will never experience with your science books. You will never experience the wonder, you are living in a world where you stuff yourself with useless knowledge, walking around like an all knowing (in reality clueless) person putting down other people who rather find joy in the simple things.

So this is for you, @SoulMonster. my favorite flower; a yellow rose. Shame you won't experience the smell of this. But it's a start

😂😂 Fair play, that's the best argument I've heard, I'm not even sure the post was serious. If your confronted with difficult things like facts or evidence don't think about things just smell the flowers and stare out of the window 😂

It's like when a hedgehog is startled so just curls up into a ball and waits until the predator goes away 😂

Edited July 6, 2019 by spunko12345

[Len Cnut]

15 hours ago, action said:

do you realise that most charities are a scam? that whenever a large disaster happens, and special events are organised to gather money, that most of the times the money reaches an unknown receiver? That most of the time, some big fat scumbag is running away with it all?

"intellectual suicide": why does it matter if you commit "intellectual suicide" as you call it? What is wrong with shutting down your mind from time to time? A man is not made to think about difficult stuff: it's fatiguing, it's depressing, and most of the time it doesn't serve any noticeable purpose. You're only going to wear yourself down, never reach a satisfying answer, and you will see life pass you by.

By thinking too much, you live too little. Life is short, don't waste it like this by delving too deep in massively pointless things like bacteria, peptides and what else have you. 

Simple stuff. a flower. the sun that gives the world nice colours. Old historical buildings like churches / castles: your ancestors have seen those exact same buildings, and now you see them too. That's stuff that makes you wonder about the true meaning of life. Good luck with your peptides and nuclei. I'm not sure what enjoyment you get out of it, but to me: it seems lifeless, pointless, and depressing.

I can sit in a church, wonder at the beautiful coloured glass, the quiteness, the pleasantly cool atmosphere on a hot summer day, the connection with something "up there". That is something you will never experience with your science books. You will never experience the wonder, you are living in a world where you stuff yourself with useless knowledge, walking around like an all knowing (in reality clueless) person putting down other people who rather find joy in the simple things.

So this is for you, @SoulMonster. my favorite flower; a yellow rose. Shame you won't experience the smell of this. But it's a start

There is a balance to be struck y'know.  I mean between thinking and enjoying the wonders of life or nature or whatever.  I mean you're kinda thinking when you do those things, otherwise a total clod just wouldn't like...get why any of that shit is amazing or care because they're not thinking.  I don't think its either one or the other, in fact I think the two and inextricably linked.  I think you sell yourself short when you give off this impression of an un-thinking person.

[action]

why do people get drunk? to stop thinking about things. it's so addicting to shut down your mind, that alcoholism is a true plague.

people want to shut down their minds, but they just don't realise.

The best moments of my life, are when my head is totally empty, and I can just look at the sky, see the coulds pass me by. See a bird flying by. And what's that? that plane sure is flying low. You know what I mean?

"thinking" on the other hand: it's tiresome. and what does it achieve but feelings of contempt and desperation? You think of a difficult problem, and you either don't come to a conclusion, which is frustrating, or you do think you figure it all out, and you despise those who aren't yet that far. Take someone like @SoulMonster. He has this encyclopedian knowledge of biology and chemistry, but I can't see how this would not corrupt his ability to enjoy the simple things. To not see a flower as a beautifull plant that smells great, but as a by-product of random chemical reactions. it's really not benefitting a romantic lifestyle don't you think? But ok, fine, not everyone wants to lead a life with little sorrow.

My device is: "create peace". When my wife is busy, and she tells me how this and that needs to be done: the shed needs to be painted, the grass is too long, there is too much weed in the garden, the kid is being a pain in the ass. I tell her the magical words: "create peace". There is only so much work, only so much problems, as you want there to be

 

Edited July 6, 2019 by action

[spunko12345]

2 minutes ago, action said:

why do people get drunk? to stop thinking about things. it's so addicting to shut down your mind, that alcoholism is a true plague.

people want to shut down their minds, but they just don't realise.

The best moments of my life, are when my head is totally empty, and I can just look at the sky, see the coulds pass me by. See a bird flying by. And what's that? that plane sure is flying low. You know what I mean?

"thinking" on the other hand: it's tiresome. and what does it achieve but feelings of contempt and desperation? You think of a difficult problem, and you either don't come to a conlusion, which is frustrating, or you do think you figure it all out, and you despise those who aren't yet that far. Take someone like @SoulMonster. He has this encyclopedian knowledge of biology and chemistry, but I can't see how this would not corrupt his ability to enjoy the simple things. To not see a flower as a beautifull plant that smells great, but as a by-product of random chemical reactions. it's really not benefitting a romantic lifestyle don't you think? But ok, fine, not everyone wants to lead a life with little sorrow.

My device is: "create peace". When my wife is busy, and she tells me how this and that needs to be done: the shed needs to be painted, the grass is too long, there is too much weed in the garden, the kid is being a pain in the ass. I tell her the magical words: "create peace". There is only so much work, only so much problems, as you want there to be

 

I get what you mean about how you enjoy those moments when your head is totally empty and your looking at flowers etc but the bit that confuses me is that there MUST be some things which you accept as facts. e.g rain falls from the sky. Why don't these things bother you? You must have had to think about how that happens.

 I find it almost unbelievable how you can dislike thinking so much and eliminate it from your life. I wish i could do it, it seems a much simpler way to live.

I suppose that's what drugs are for.