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The Religion/Spirituality Thread


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3 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

That doesn't explain why you would want to make it even more complicated by introducing a supernatural component that also needs to be explained.

said every university student - ever.

"why do they make these things so complicated, Sharon?", herbert asked his girlfriend.

"because society doesn't want stupid people like you calling the shots from behind a desk, herb".

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8 minutes ago, action said:

So knowing all of this, is it really necessary to keep viewing religion as ridiculous? We are just trying to give meaning (while you have long gave up), we're not hurting anyone.

I don't think I have said that religions are ridiculous? I have said that the belief in gods is irrational. Non-sensical. Like believing in ghosts. Os Santa Clause. Or tea cups orbiting Alpha Centauri. 

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1 minute ago, SoulMonster said:

Then it is really odd that you don't spend more time actually learning stuff we do know. If ignorance was such a big problem to you, you'd go through constant discomfort, why don't you actually read something and get a bit wiser? 

ok, ok. I promise I'll read something, this evening when my work is done

Spoiler

the bible

 

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10 minutes ago, action said:

all of that sounds a bit boring to me.

it's certainly no match against "the meaning of everything"

It does? My fault then, I thought you actually wanted to learn something because "whisdom is power" and all that, and it wasn't just an empty phrase you used because you had argued yourself into a corner.

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4 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

It does? My fault then, I thought you actually wanted to learn something because "whisdom is power" and all that, and it wasn't just an empty phrase you used because you had argued yourself into a corner.

Quote

 why don't you just pick up a book on cosmology and actually learn thing we do know? Why insist on getting answers to questions that we cannot possible answer? Or pick up a textbook on biology? Or physics? Or history? Or statistics? Surely all of these books would provide more meaningful knowledge in terms of your "survival" and "knowledge is power" than knowing how the singularity came about which is esoteric to put it mildly.

cosmology, biology, physics, history, statistics... I can safely say I've picked up books on those subjects in my life. I believe, they are standard curriculum in school.

in some cases, I picked up books on these when school was over and done.

I don't know, what more you ask of me.

I'm not an expert in all of these fields, and don't want to. Being an expert is already a limitation you're going to implement on yourself.

I prefer to be more like leonardo da vinci. When he was drawing pictures of helicopters long before those were discovered: now that's what I call an intelligent person. While I'm by no means a leo da vinci, he certainly would be someone I look up to and who features as an example to me. The great step into the unknown.

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3 minutes ago, action said:

cosmology, biology, physics, history, statistics... I can safely say I've picked up books on those subjects in my life. I believe, they are standard curriculum in school.

in some cases, I picked up books on these when school was over and done.

I don't know, what more you ask of me.

I encourage you to sate your incredible thirst for knowledge by actually, you know, learning stuff. Or have you already forgotten how you rambled about having to learn about the origins of the singularity because "knowledge was power" and all that? Resulting in you making up explanations because you couldn't bare not knowing?

5 minutes ago, action said:

I'm not an expert in all of these fields, and don't want to. Being an expert is already a limitation you're going to implement on yourself.

The only thing being an expert on something limits is your ignorance on that subject, and although I am sure you are really good at that, I don't really see why it would be anything to strive for.

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7 minutes ago, action said:

I prefer to be more like leonardo da vinci. When he was drawing pictures of helicopters long before those were discovered: now that's what I call an intelligent person. While I'm by no means a leo da vinci, he certainly would be someone I look up to and who features as an example to me. The great step into the unknown.

I like that want to be more like da Vinci. I also would like you to be more like him. da Vinci was a brilliant thinker and scholar. He certainly updated himself on the works of other early scientists when he was creating his inventions, as well as seeking inspirations by studying the natural world (like birds and bats). As far as I know, he wasn't one who would brag about his thirst for knowledge, while demonstrating a rare lack of such, and claim that inventing a supernatural explanation to the origin of the universe made any sense. 

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17 hours ago, PatrickS77 said:

Something to get you by? Yes. Sure. But not everything is made up/ruins your health. Some of the things that get you by are real and tangible.

Whats real and tangible?  Some guys sanity is hinged on their vocation, like say someones an artist, arts sort of an abstract concept.  And when it becomes about perception i.e. one guy thinks a thing is real another doesn’t, then what?  Everybody lives for something.  A lot of people live for their families, I guess you could call that real and tangible.  My point is that when the other option is non existence then what difference does it make?  

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1 hour ago, Len Cnut said:

Whats real and tangible?  Some guys sanity is hinged on their vocation, like say someones an artist, arts sort of an abstract concept.  And when it becomes about perception i.e. one guy thinks a thing is real another doesn’t, then what?  Everybody lives for something.  A lot of people live for their families, I guess you could call that real and tangible.  My point is that when the other option is non existence then what difference does it make?  

nah. I get what Patrick is saying. Personally, I am strictly into real shit as well. But people like me are very rare. Almost everybody else needs a vice. Some other people think that just cause they don't drink or do drugs or believe in a higher power, they are superior or at least it makes them feel pretty good thinking "hey! look at me! I've got it all figured out" but it's just their ego feeding them nonsense.

me and Patrick truly don't need anything to help us live an ideal life though. You wouldn't understand, why bother. Just keep living your limited existence.

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6 minutes ago, Rovim said:

nah. I get what Patrick is saying. Personally, I am strictly into real shit as well. But people like me are very rare. Almost everybody else needs a vice. Some other people think that just cause they don't drink or do drugs or believe in a higher power, they are superior or at least it makes them feel pretty good thinking "hey! look at me! I've got it all figured out" but it's just their ego feeding them nonsense.

me and Patrick truly don't need anything to help us live an ideal life though. You wouldn't understand, why bother. Just keep living your limited existence. Better than nothing.

I haven't made any claims about what I do or don't need in that respect because I feel I'd have to be put under extreme duress to find out and I don't want to either or am I talking about vice.  And y'know, with the greatest of respect, the latter type of person you've described, the one whoose 'ego is feeding them nonsense', we'd all do well to consider how close we are to that category. 

Put it this way, there are certain stresses you can put on a person to where they will crack.  CIA and agencies like that get training in this shit.  You can break anybody, including impenetrable heroes like yourself.  There are things you can do to anybody, without killing, physically disabling or lobotomising anyone, that will make them crack.  Everyones sanity is hinged on something.  There is something or things that you can subtract from anyone that can take em to breaking point.  Now if for one guy that shit is his faith in religion, more power to him.  The thing, to me, is incidental as long as you ain't harming no one.  Who am I to say what is the right or wrong thing around which to base a fulfilling life for x person?  200 years from now it ain't gonna mean shit for me, you, Patrick or anybody living in the 21st Century so, y'know, whatever it is man, whatever keeps us all going. 

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13 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

I haven't made any claims about what I do or don't need in that respect because I feel I'd have to be put under extreme duress to find out and I don't want to either or am I talking about vice.  And y'know, with the greatest of respect, the latter type of person you've described, the one whoose 'ego is feeding them nonsense', we'd all do well to consider how close we are to that category. 

Put it this way, there are certain stresses you can put on a person to where they will crack.  CIA and agencies like that get training in this shit.  You can break anybody, including impenetrable heroes like yourself.  There are things you can do to anybody, without killing, physically disabling or lobotomising anyone, that will make them crack.  Everyones sanity is hinged on something.  There is something or things that you can subtract from anyone that can take em to breaking point.  Now if for one guy that shit is his faith in religion, more power to him.  The thing, to me, is incidental as long as you ain't harming no one.  Who am I to say what is the right or wrong thing around which to base a fulfilling life for x person?  200 years from now it ain't gonna mean shit for me, you, Patrick or anybody living in the 21st Century so, y'know, whatever it is man, whatever keeps us all going. 

I think that some people don't really understand that every single person is wired differently and no one wants to suffer. We want to feel good right? so whatever keeps you going like you said.

there is so much value in believing in something, even if it's a lie cause it still has a function. It's tragic that certain beliefs are forced on others and limit the pace of scientific advancement but for most it's too much to handle without something bigger to believe in.

and yes, I'm aware I have my own shortcomings in the ego department.

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9 minutes ago, Rovim said:

I think that some people don't really understand that every single person is wired differently and no one wants to suffer. We want to feel good right? so whatever keeps you going like you said.

there is so much value in believing in something, even if it's a lie cause it's still has a function. It's tragic that certain beliefs are forced on others and limit the pace of scientific advancement but for most it's too much to handle without something bigger to believe in.

and yes, I'm aware I have my own shortcomings in the ego department.

Reality is a construct of perception and everyones perception is different, even though we share the same senses.  In the same way animals have a different perception ergo a different idea of reality.  And its all finite, reality exists for as long as you're alive, this is my thoughts anyway cuz obviously I don't believe in an afterlife.  I think there's a kinda semi-nihilistic approach to this shit to me.  Or maybe not, maybe something more approaching existentialist.  But the point is I don't see shit how you see shit just as we don't see shit how Michaelangelo saw shit.  Some kind of rationalisation goes on in everyones head at some point regarding life and for me it ends, for someone like me with 'fuck it, we're here anyway so why not make the best of it while we're here and do all that you can to make yourself feel good while you're here' and for someone else its 'there's a God and an afterlife and I'm gonna see Jesus after I die', I don't see that it makes much difference.  Yeah, you could say 'well as long as religious fella doesn't start imposing his shit on other people' but you could also say 'as long as Len the cuntbag doesn't as well'.

People have this idea about religious people that they are more prone to a kind of zeal that leads to oppressive practise but like...if a religious person is closer to 'God ordered me to kill heathens' then you could argue an existentialist is just as close to 'none of this shit means anything anyway, there's no accountability and law is just a man made construct so why don't I go around killing prostitutes for fun' too :lol:  Those poor prostitutes, they're forever bearing the brunt, aren't they? :lol:

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8 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

Reality is a construct of perception and everyones perception is different, even though we share the same senses.  In the same way animals have a different perception ergo a different idea of reality.  And its all finite, reality exists for as long as you're alive, this is my thoughts anyway cuz obviously I don't believe in an afterlife.  I think there's a kinda semi-nihilistic approach to this shit to me.  Or maybe not, maybe something more approaching existentialist.  But the point is I don't see shit how you see shit just as we don't see shit how Michaelangelo saw shit.  Some kind of rationalisation goes on in everyones head at some point regarding life and for me it ends, for someone like me with 'fuck it, we're here anyway so why not make the best of it while we're here and do all that you can to make yourself feel good while you're here' and for someone else its 'there's a God and an afterlife and I'm gonna see Jesus after I die', I don't see that it makes much difference.  Yeah, you could say 'well as long as religious fella doesn't start imposing his shit on other people' but you could also say 'as long as Len the cuntbag doesn't as well'.

People have this idea about religious people that they are more prone to a kind of zeal that leads to oppressive practise but like...if a religious person is closer to 'God ordered me to kill heathens' then you could argue an existentialist is just as close to 'none of this shit means anything anyway, there's no accountability and law is just a man made construct so why don't I go around killing prostitutes for fun' too :lol:  Those poor prostitutes, they're forever bearing the brunt, aren't they? :lol:

we all have a different recipe to live how we want to live or as close as possible to at least be on top of it. We explain it to ourselves and attach meaning. One of the most annoying ways some people give a confidence boost to themselves is by looking at others and how they deal with their shit and label it as "not as good" or even "pathetic". I don't need this or I don't need that to live MY life. As if they have any idea how it feels like to be in someone else's head.

gotta respect the differences between you and me is what I think I'm trying to say cause it's all the same shit in the end.

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One of the most annoying ways some people give a confidence boost to themselves is by looking at others and how they deal with their shit and label it as "not as good" or even "pathetic".

I'm different, I go 'well if that dickhead can do it then why can't you?' :lol:

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Just now, Len Cnut said:

I'm different, I go 'well if that dickhead can do it then why can't you?' :lol:

that's a good one. I do that a lot. My favorite though is to target large groups of people and find at least 5 different ways that I can completely and objectively agree with myself that I am better than them. Feels great, and sometimes you can do that with friends and family if you want to use information you know against them to see how effective it is.

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2 minutes ago, Rovim said:

that's a good one. I do that a lot. My favorite though is to target large groups of people and find at least 5 different ways that I can completely and objectively agree with myself that I am better than them. Feels great, and sometimes you can do that with friends and family if you want to use information you know against them to see how effective it is.

And when all else fails 'I could knock him the fuck out anyway, fuck him' :lol: 

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59 minutes ago, Rovim said:

nah. I get what Patrick is saying. Personally, I am strictly into real shit as well.

sorry to burst your bubble, but

the teacup which soulmonster refers to. in what respect is this "real"? You will be surprised to find, that what you define as a teacup, is just vastly made up of "empty space". The real meat and potatoes, the "matter", devoid of all thin air, is incredibly small. you wouldn't be able to see it with your naked eye.

the idea of a teacup is largely all just an illusion

https://www.sciencealert.com/99-9999999-of-your-body-is-empty-space

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4 minutes ago, action said:

sorry to burst your bubble, but

the teacup which soulmonster refers to. in what respect is this "real"? You will be surprised to find, that what you define as a teacup, is just vastly made up of "empty space". The real meat and potatoes, the "matter", devoid of all thin air, is incredibly small. you wouldn't be able to see it with your naked eye.

the idea of a teacup is largely all just an illusion

https://www.sciencealert.com/99-9999999-of-your-body-is-empty-space

not that surprising. But I'm surprised you knew that. I like tea. Cranberry Ginger.

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45 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

Reality is a construct of perception and everyones perception is different, even though we share the same senses.  In the same way animals have a different perception ergo a different idea of reality.  And its all finite, reality exists for as long as you're alive, this is my thoughts anyway cuz obviously I don't believe in an afterlife.  I think there's a kinda semi-nihilistic approach to this shit to me. 

You think?! And only semi? :lol:

As for your point that it doesn't matter what people use to get through life, I disagree. It matter a lot. I would much rather people found rational clutches that couldn't potentially convince them to fuck up things for other people (like be against same sex marriage, be opposed to people with other religions, fight, be against gender equality, etc, you know all this shit that has been done in the name of religion).

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16 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

(like be against same sex marriage, be opposed to people with other religions, fight, be against gender equality, etc, you know all this shit that has been done in the name of religion).

I'm sure that if you made religion completely disappear, you would still have those issues.

first you have the sexists, before there's religion, and then they seek backing somewhere.

remove religion, and they'll find something else to use.

if this is your reason to remove religion, then the solution to the problem is ineffective. Your actions would have no effect in practise: the problem would just move from religion to something else.

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30 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

You think?! And only semi? :lol:

As for your point that it doesn't matter what people use to get through life, I disagree. It matter a lot. I would much rather people found rational clutches that couldn't potentially convince them to fuck up things for other people (like be against same sex marriage, be opposed to people with other religions, fight, be against gender equality, etc, you know all this shit that has been done in the name of religion).

sounds good. But how do you accomplish that? finding rational crutches for irrational people that is. cause this is all they know and they're fine with living the lie for generations upon generations. For them the value of it is still great cause it serves them until they die and then there's nothing (imo) so blissfully ignorant. You really believe you can take that away from them? very optimistic.

it's easier said than done. religion is not going away in my lifetime anyway. For most people it's good enough and perfectly feasible. There's very little the minority can do to fight lack of common sense.  Most people don't want to know there is nothing to make it all better or inject order into their lives. Something to help deal with fear mostly.

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10 minutes ago, action said:

I'm sure that if you made religion completely disappear, you would still have those issues.

I never would claim these issues originate solely with religion. 

1 minute ago, Rovim said:

sounds good. But how do you accomplish that? finding rational crutches to irrational people that is. cause this is all they know and they're fine with living the lie for generations upon generations. For them the value of it is still great cause it serves them until they die and then there's nothing (imo) so blissfully ignorant. You really believe you can take that away from them? very optimistic.

Did I ever say I think I can "take [religion] away from [people]"? No, I didn't. I said that we'd be better off without it, I didn't say I thought we would be able to remove it nor that it was my intention to do so.

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2 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

I never would claim these issues originate solely with religion. 

Did I ever say I think I can "take [religion] away from [people]"? No, I didn't. I said that we'd be better off without it, I didn't say I thought we would be able to remove it nor that it was my intention to do so.

ok, but you're not offering an alternative. Seems to me, people need something to replace it with so they can handle life, don't you agree? at least most people.

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Just now, Rovim said:

ok, but you're not offering an alternative. Seems to me, people need something to replace it with so they can handle life, don't you agree?

To identify the alternatives we have to realize what religion offer to people, some of these things have secular alternatives, some don't. Here are some of them:

- The promise of an afterlife. Nope, can't offer any good alternatives for that one.

- The community. Lots of secular alternatives.

- A feeling of belonging. Lots of secular alternatives, including family and friends.

- A feeling of being protected. A bit harder, though, but if you have a family and friends a lot of this should be covered.

I think most people could find secular alternatives for most of the stuff they get from religion. Take Norway as an example, the majority here aren't theists yet we seem to get on fine and are happy and well-adjusted. Of course you can't rip religion away from someone who now needs it because it has become part of their very being, but most people can grow up to not need it at all, in my opinion.

Then the obvious question is, if some people need the promise of an afterlife or need the feeling of being watched by a heavenly father, shouldn't they have it then? Isn't religion then all in all good for us? I would say no to the latter. Although it does help some people who might be worse off without it, the negative sides of religion outweighs those (of which being an impediment to knowledge and science, an impediment to social development, stimulating animosity between different people, are included).

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