The Religion/Spirituality Thread

[Rovim]

16 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

To identify the alternatives we have to realize what religion offer to people, some of these things have secular alternatives, some don't. Here are some of them:

- The promise of an afterlife. Nope, can't offer any good alternatives for that one.

- The community. Lots of secular alternatives.

- A feeling of belonging. Lots of secular alternatives, including family and friends.

- A feeling of being protected. A bit harder, though, but if you have a family and friends a lot of this should be covered.

I think most people could find secular alternatives for most of the stuff they get from religion. Take Norway as an example, the majority here aren't theists yet we seem to get on fine and are happy and well-adjusted. Of course you can't rip religion away from someone who now needs it because it has become part of their very being, but most people can grow up to not need it at all, in my opinion.

Then the obvious question is, if some people need the promise of an afterlife or need the feeling of being watched by a heavenly father, shouldn't they have it then? Isn't religion then all in all good for us? I would say no to the latter. Although it does help some people who might be worse off without it, the negative sides of religion outweighs those (of which being an impediment to knowledge and science, an impediment to social development, stimulating animosity between different people, are included).

the main problem is, imo, that for many - death and the understanding they will die some day, maybe even tomorrow is too hard to swallow. That they will become nothing and won't be able to sense anything after they die. I don't know you, but you seem like the type of person that doesn't wrestle too much with this fact. Most people lack order and the mental capacity and tools to face the challenges of life without the promise of an afterlife/"knowing" they are a part of something bigger.

the negative will never outweigh the positive to believers as long as death is the final destination of all human beings. It's the biggest reason why religion is still a major force in the world in 2020, despite everything we've learned.

Edited May 29, 2020 by Rovim

[action]

9 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

To identify the alternatives we have to realize what religion offer to people, some of these things have secular alternatives, some don't. Here are some of them:

- The promise of an afterlife. Nope, can't offer any good alternatives for that one.

- The community. Lots of secular alternatives.

- A feeling of belonging. Lots of secular alternatives, including family and friends.

- A feeling of being protected. A bit harder, though, but if you have a family and friends a lot of this should be covered.

I think most people could find secular alternatives for most of the stuff they get from religion. Take Norway as an example, the majority here aren't theists yet we seem to get on fine and are happy and well-adjusted. Of course you can't rip religion away from someone who now needs it because it has become part of their very being, but most people can grow up to not need it at all, in my opinion.

Then the obvious question is, if some people need the promise of an afterlife or need the feeling of being watched by a heavenly father, shouldn't they have it then? Isn't religion then all in all good for us? I would say no to the latter. Although it does help some people who might be worse off without it, the negative sides of religion outweighs those (of which being an impediment to knowledge and science, an impediment to social development, stimulating animosity between different people, are included).

the society you describe seems to me as very dystopian and bleak.

I categorically refuse to be part of that.

that community you offer, doesn't interest me one bit. All greed and jealousy. No thanks, you can keep your community, your team meetings, your carnivals, your psychiatrists and your sport clubs. all of that, utterly depresses me.

I much prefer my magic, and the green grass and flowers of the afterlife.

No matter how fucked up this world gets (and everyday I'm surprised just how fucked up it can get even more), there is always the comforting thought of afterlife. It'll all be good.

Your life is just made up of grey and brown colours, concrete and cold. it's not friendly enough for me. Suicide levels would rise spectacularily.

[SoulMonster]

33 minutes ago, Rovim said:

the main problem is, imo, that for many - death and the understanding they will die some day, maybe even tomorrow is too hard to swallow. That they will become nothing and won't be able to sense anything after they die. I don't know you, but you seem like the type of person that doesn't wrestle too much with this fact. Most people lack order and the mental capacity and tools to face the challenges of life 

I don't agree. I think that most people could learn to deal with this just fine if they weren't conditioned to it as children. Again, the majority of Norwegians don't believe in god yet we seem to get on just fine. 

[SoulMonster]

28 minutes ago, action said:

the society you describe seems to me as very dystopian and bleak.

Huh? It is just like any other just without a belief in god. We would still love and laugh and play and joke like before. Nature would still have its colors, a cat would still purr. 

[Rovim]

18 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

I don't agree. I think that most people could learn to deal with this just fine if they weren't conditioned to it as children. Again, the majority of Norwegians don't believe in god yet we seem to get on just fine. 

Norway is just one country though. How many countries similar to yours? I hope you're right and one day most people will be able to learn how to deal with it but personally I can't see that happening on a global scale in the near or even very distant future if ever.

There are many different belief systems, traditions, and countries without a democracy for example where you just don't have the freedom to even attempt to try to live a secular life. The mentality of people in Norway is probably very different to the mentality of people living in other countries.

 

Edited May 29, 2020 by Rovim

[EvanG]

In a lot of countries religion is fading away. Where I live many churches are closing down and the diocese is in serious financial problems. My dad does volunteer work for the local church where he lives, administration and stuff like that, not really out of religious reasons or so, but therefore I know a bit of what goes on and they have serious problems. On average around 4 people attend mass on a typical sunday these days.

[action]

3 minutes ago, EvanG said:

In a lot of countries religion is fading away. Where I live many churches are closing down and the diocese is in serious financial problems. My dad does volunteer work for the local church where he lives, administration and stuff like that, not really out of religious reasons or so, but therefore I know a bit of what goes on and they have serious problems. On average around 4 people attend mass on a typical sunday these days.

they'll be alright

ask your dad how much tax money they get from the government.

the muslim executive in belgium has received 6 million euros tax money over the course of just shy of ten years.

[Len Cnut]

Quote

You think?! And only semi? 

I can't muster any more, its a constant source of distress for the missus   I don't think I'm incredibly nihilistic.  Yeah, I do think life is essentially pointless in terms of it having a greater meaning or end...destination or result.  But I don't take that to the nth degree and go 'right, all bets are off, lets go raping and pillaging'.  I believe in goodness for its own sake, for the momentary good it does and comfort it provides.  And if there is a greater purpose I wager its one that renders us, as individuals, insignificant.  We might be some kind of huge mass of cosmic fertilizer with egoes and conciousness.  I'm not hung up about it or anything, its cool, I like it round here.  I have found in life that the hard answers are usually the right ones and the hardest answer I've come up with is the aforementioned 'life is pointless', you just come here, do your bit, have a laugh and then you die.  if you're lucky you're Shakespeare or Alexander the Great and make something of a mark but eventually, I fear, even Shakespeare and the memory of ol' Macedonian Alex will be gone.  Its actually pretty comforting overall, it certainly beats the idea of eternal damnation, no offence religious folk.

Quote

As for your point that it doesn't matter what people use to get through life, I disagree. It matter a lot. I would much rather people found rational clutches that couldn't potentially convince them to fuck up things for other people (like be against same sex marriage, be opposed to people with other religions, fight, be against gender equality, etc, you know all this shit that has been done in the name of religion).

Well if we're getting in rathers well I'd rather everybody have the perfect answer, whatever it is, including myself.  And my previous post (or one of em) did mention that not doing shit to the detriment of other people is preferrable. 

[Len Cnut]

33 minutes ago, action said:

they'll be alright

ask your dad how much tax money they get from the government.

the muslim executive in belgium has received 6 million euros tax money over the course of just shy of ten years.

Religion is a very profitable hustle.  None of these lot pay tax y'know.  Charity organisations and that.  Even in countries where religion really rules heavy the tides are changing, however slowly it might be and 'behind' secular western society they might be.  Saudi are loosening up, countries like Pakistan etc where you are getting modern progressive leaders whilst still having to placate the religious establishment somewhat, are making clear moves towards a more fairly ordered society.  This is not an attack on religion btw but more the religious racketeers whoose voices are prominent in politics in some parts of the world still. 

[SoulMonster]

2 hours ago, Len Cnut said:

I can't muster any more, its a constant source of distress for the missus   I don't think I'm incredibly nihilistic.  Yeah, I do think life is essentially pointless in terms of it having a greater meaning or end...destination or result. 

But that's me too, yet I always find that you have a more bleak outlook whereas I am more positive and optimistic. You are the one saying, "everybody are cunts," I am the one saying, "come one, we can do better, I know it!"

We might not have been put here for some divine purpose but that doesn't mean we can't have a great time and find meaning for ourselves in this glorious, insane existence.

[SoulMonster]

3 hours ago, Rovim said:

Norway is just one country though. How many countries similar to yours?

I think you can expand this to Scandinavia in general. Quite secular countries. But since I believe people are more or less the same everywhere, then I think there is no reason other countries can't become secular too and that people would enjoy it just as much as we do. It's got to be a gradual process though. Can't be forced in any way. Might take many generations for some countries. Probably won't happen for a long time, if it even happens at all.

[SoulMonster]

4 hours ago, action said:

[…] doesn't interest me one bit. All greed and jealousy. […]

Your life is just made up of grey and brown colours, concrete and cold. it's not friendly enough for me. Suicide levels would rise spectacularily.

Not sure why you would think a secular society would be more "greedy and jealousy", nor "just made up of grey and brown colours, concrete and cold."

Seems to me you think joie de vivre, warmth, friendship, enjoyment, etc, is an outcome of religion and not an outcome of humanity.

[Len Cnut]

44 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

But that's me too, yet I always find that you have a more bleak outlook whereas I am more positive and optimistic. You are the one saying, "everybody are cunts," I am the one saying, "come one, we can do better, I know it!"

We might not have been put here for some divine purpose but that doesn't mean we can't have a great time and find meaning for ourselves in this glorious, insane existence.

Thinking people are cunts ain't nihilistic necessarily.  Look at it this, in your estimation, do more people mean you harm in this world when compared to the amount that mean you good?  If the former is your opinion then you're pretty close to my position, you've got to have a bit of nouse in this world, you've got to be a bit lively on your toes because people will fuck you up.  The human race, generally, are cunts, I'm including me in that, we're out for ourselves and our own in this world, there are good people in this world sure but you can't live life on the chance that you're likely to bump into one of em, you look after your own.  You think cars have alarms, doors and windows have locks, shops have security guards because the world is full of all lovely smiley good folks all looking to do people good?  Thats just me being realistic about the world about me.  The hope in all this is peoples propensity to do good, which there is also a lot of, neighbours that do you a good turn, some bloke that goes out and does the shopping for some elderly infirmed person for gratis, the good people working for the NHS during the pandemic, there's loads of it about, its just in a day to day sense, you can walk the streets with your head full of such idealistic optimism, people will tear you a new one.   Some say behind every person with my sort of world view is an idealist whoose been burned, perhaps thats true.  

My thinking people are cunts or life is pointless isn't because of a lack of divine purpose, we're just not as important as physical entities in comparison to some of the grand concepts we are able to comprehend, thats probably closer to it, being the first or most prominent beings of consciousness we're in the position where we can concieve all kinds of mind-blowing shit...but physically we're no better or no greater or no longer lasting that a million other beings.  Cows seem satisfied being cows or horses or ants...but we're kind cursed with this greater conciousness that, ultimately, nothing really comes of it individually speaking.  It's more like...us as a collective, what we do, as a species, what we contribute to the furtherance of the human family.  But as an individual its ultimately a let down.  Wouldn't it be nice for Soulie and Len to be here in the year 4044 chatting shit about Man Utd and religion and all the other bollocks we talk about?  Aren't they ultimately feeble shells a terribly poor servant of our fantastic brains?  Mind you, the fuckin' brains give in too on a lot of models, don't they?  

But it is what it is, I'm a firm believer in accepting what is and making the best of it, I don't walk around all day in a long black anorak listening to Joy Division about it, hence my embracing of fuckin' booze and drugs and fuckin' about and not taking life ever so fuckin' seriously cuz ultimately it is tale told by an idiot with a lot of sound and fury, signifying fuck all as good ol' Shakespeare said.

[spunko12345]

On 27/05/2020 at 9:36 AM, action said:

when the doctor puts a needle in your arm to inject medicine, is he bad for hurting you? No, he is curing you, he has a purpose.

the bad things on earth are the needle.

The afterlife is the medicine / purpose.

An innocent child that gets killed, will experience a short moment of horror and pain. But then, it will enjoy afterlife.

As for it's remaining loved ones who remain in sorrow: they are put to the test. In every person's life, there comes a time where you will be tested. Everyone will lose a loved one or experience disease, no one can escape it. It is all a test of your morality.

That's fucked up mate.

[SoulMonster]

8 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

Thinking people are cunts ain't nihilistic necessarily.  Look at it this, in your estimation, do more people mean you harm in this world when compared to the amount that mean you good?  If the former is your opinion then you're pretty close to my position, you've got to have a bit of nouse in this world, you've got to be a bit lively on your toes because people will fuck you up. 

We have been through this before, I believe, and you probably remember that I am an advocate of the dualism of human nature. I am the first to argue against simplified notions of humans being either good or bad and pointing out how we have the potential for both, which is why nurture is so important, and building good societies that stimulate the good and suppress the bad.

So whether people are good or bad really depends on the circumstances. It depends on who you interact with. It depends on where you live. 

And as far as I am concerned, most of the people I meet, I work with, I spend time with, are good people who would come to my aid if needed. If someone falls over in the street, people come to help. I have locks on my house not because most people here are bad and would rob me if I hadn't, but because there are a few who would.

[spunko12345]

1 hour ago, SoulMonster said:

But that's me too, yet I always find that you have a more bleak outlook whereas I am more positive and optimistic. You are the one saying, "everybody are cunts," I am the one saying, "come one, we can do better, I know it!"

Len almost certainly can't 😄 Cuntiness is something that's too firmly rooted in him by this point.

[Len Cnut]

19 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

I hadn't read that Shakespeare quote before. Sums up my experience here quite aptly.

Macbeth...he didn't say 'fuck all' though, that was me, he said (or wrote) 'nothing'  

 

34 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

We have been through this before, I believe, and you probably remember that I am an advocate of the dualism of human nature. I am the first to argue against simplified notions of humans being either good or bad and pointing out how we have the potential for both, which is why nurture is so important, and building good societies that stimulate the good and suppress the bad.

So whether people are good or bad really depends on the circumstances. It depends on who you interact with. It depends on where you live. 

And as far as I am concerned, most of the people I meet, I work with, I spend time with, are good people who would come to my aid if needed. If someone falls over in the street, people come to help. I have locks on my house not because most people here are bad and would rob me if I hadn't, but because there are a few who would.

Well, what can I say, long may life continue in that way for you and yours.

Edited May 29, 2020 by Len Cnut

[SoulMonster]

18 hours ago, Len Cnut said:

Well, what can I say, long may life continue in that way for you and yours.

Thank you. 

It's like we come from different worlds, and in a sense we do. 

Hopefully your experiences from now on will be more like mine. 

[Len Cnut]

7 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Thank you. 

It's like we come from different worlds, and in a sense we do. 

Hopefully your experiences from now on will be more like mine. 

Perhaps its a mentality thing as well, which it might be, to a point.  I just feel like everyone constructs their personality in a sense, or designs it in a way where it best serves the sort of situations you end up in.  Every time I see pics of where you're at it all looks really idyllic.  Not that I live in some double fuckin' dangerous manor, its just like, y'know, the places where you associate or mix too. 

Actually I happened to go by the neighbourhood I grew up in the other day and it struck me how fuckin' quiet and lower middle class and like...just fucking dead it is.  Its about 20 mins walk from a pretty naughty council estate too but being England a lot of shit is bunched together.  It kinda made me think about why the things that appeal to me, extreme, provocative etc type things appeal to me, cuz where I grew up honestly, that little neighbourhood of like 25 to 30 odd streets, its so fucking staid.  Its why the overriding memory I have of childhood is boredom and then all the naughty little things you got up to as a remedy to that boredom.  From 16 onwards though I've been pretty much dead in the centre of town. 

[SoulMonster]

3 hours ago, Len Cnut said:

Perhaps its a mentality thing as well, which it might be, to a point.  I just feel like everyone constructs their personality in a sense, or designs it in a way where it best serves the sort of situations you end up in.  Every time I see pics of where you're at it all looks really idyllic.  Not that I live in some double fuckin' dangerous manor, its just like, y'know, the places where you associate or mix too. 

Actually I happened to go by the neighbourhood I grew up in the other day and it struck me how fuckin' quiet and lower middle class and like...just fucking dead it is.  Its about 20 mins walk from a pretty naughty council estate too but being England a lot of shit is bunched together.  It kinda made me think about why the things that appeal to me, extreme, provocative etc type things appeal to me, cuz where I grew up honestly, that little neighbourhood of like 25 to 30 odd streets, its so fucking staid.  Its why the overriding memory I have of childhood is boredom and then all the naughty little things you got up to as a remedy to that boredom.  From 16 onwards though I've been pretty much dead in the centre of town. 

I think definitely it is a combination of mentality (what goes around comes around) and the reality of where you live and who you interact with. I think we Norwegians are fortunate in the sense that we live comparatively stress-free lives with a lot of free time to enjoy ourselves. We don't work much, we have low unemployment rate, we know that even if we lose our jobs there will be safety nets, we don't have to spend hours in commute, we have lots of available nature which is good for the psyche, our salaries are relatively high allowing us time and money to travel quite a bit, and so on. We don't have a lot to be high-strung for, generally speaking.

I have travelled a bit and I don't think it is like this everywhere. For instance I always sense an edge of tension among many people in the USA. It's more cut-throat. People have to work more. Swallow more shit. 

Although we shouldn't exaggerate these regional differences, and stereotype people from different countries because it varies a lot, I do think this might explain some of it. The culture we live in affects how we behave. When life is good you don't get into petty fights and arguments with people over small things. You do when you are already angry or frustrated or just fed up with things and need an emotional outlet.

And of course I have painted a rosy-red version of Norway. It has it differences too, with people who fall through and live a more precarious existence. It's not like we are all this fortunate. There are different sub-cultures that are more edgy, of course.

Then there's personality. There will always be assholes no matter. people who are just wired in such a way that they behave more badly towards others. And of course we have those in Norway, too. People who are more liable to lash out and be cunts.

Lastly, personally I am kind of relaxed about things and extremely easy-going, this might influence how people interact with me (not implying you aren't).

I also grew up in a fairly quiet and boring neighbourhood. But I ended up living in one too after a shorter stint in an apartment in a more lively part closer to the city center. I prefer it for my kids. 

[Len Cnut]

58 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

I think definitely it is a combination of mentality (what goes around comes around) and the reality of where you live and who you interact with. I think we Norwegians are fortunate in the sense that we live comparatively stress-free lives with a lot of free time to enjoy ourselves. We don't work much, we have low unemployment rate, we know that even if we lose our jobs there will be safety nets, we don't have to spend hours in commute, we have lots of available nature which is good for the psyche, our salaries are relatively high allowing us time and money to travel quite a bit, and so on. We don't have a lot to be high-strung for, generally speaking.

I have travelled a bit and I don't think it is like this everywhere. For instance I always sense an edge of tension among many people in the USA. It's more cut-throat. People have to work more. Swallow more shit. 

Although we shouldn't exaggerate these regional differences, and stereotype people from different countries because it varies a lot, I do think this might explain some of it. The culture we live in affects how we behave. When life is good you don't get into petty fights and arguments with people over small things. You do when you are already angry or frustrated or just fed up with things and need an emotional outlet.

And of course I have painted a rosy-red version of Norway. It has it differences too, with people who fall through and live a more precarious existence. It's not like we are all this fortunate. There are different sub-cultures that are more edgy, of course.

Then there's personality. There will always be assholes no matter. people who are just wired in such a way that they behave more badly towards others. And of course we have those in Norway, too. People who are more liable to lash out and be cunts.

Lastly, personally I am kind of relaxed about things and extremely easy-going, this might influence how people interact with me (not implying you aren't).

I also grew up in a fairly quiet and boring neighbourhood. But I ended up living in one too after a shorter stint in an apartment in a more lively part closer to the city center. I prefer it for my kids. 

How did you find London, comparitively speaking, compared to your envoirnment?

[SoulMonster]

Just now, Len Cnut said:

How did you find London, comparitively speaking, compared to your envoirnment?

I have only been there three times or so. I found it like any other large city: bustling with energy and people in a hurry. I didn't really interact that much with locals to get a good impression of how people from London are so I can't really say. 

[Len Cnut]

Just now, SoulMonster said:

I have only been there three times or so. I found it like any other large city: bustling with energy and people in a hurry. I didn't really interact that much with locals to get a good impression of how people from London are so I can't really say. 

Did you stay central mostly or did you venture out a bit?

[SoulMonster]

1 minute ago, Len Cnut said:

Did you stay central mostly or did you venture out a bit?

Uhm, I can't remember the first time. The other two times I stayed in Kensington. 

[Ace Nova]

@soon

Roman Catholics and Protestants alike persecuted the Anabaptists, resorting to torture and execution in attempts to curb the growth of the movement. The Protestants under Zwingli were the first to persecute the Anabaptists, with Felix Manz becoming the first Anabaptist martyr in 1527. On May 20 or 21, 1527, Roman Catholic authorities executed Michael Sattler.[49] King Ferdinand declared drowning (called the third baptism) "the best antidote to Anabaptism". The Tudor regime, even the Protestant monarchs (Edward VI of England and Elizabeth I of England), persecuted Anabaptists as they were deemed too radical and therefore a danger to religious stability.

The burning of a 16th-century Dutch Anabaptist, Anneken Hendriks, who was charged with heresy.

The persecution of Anabaptists was condoned by the ancient laws of Theodosius I and Justinian I which were passed against the Donatists, and decreed the death penalty for anyone who practised rebaptism. Martyrs Mirror, by Thieleman J. van Braght, describes the persecution and execution of thousands of Anabaptists in various parts of Europe between 1525 and 1660. Continuing persecution in Europe was largely responsible for the mass emigrations to North America by the Amish, Hutterites, and Mennonites. Unlike Calvinists, Anabaptists failed to gain recognition in the Peace of Westphalia of 1648 and as a result, they continued to be persecuted in Europe long after that treaty was signed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabaptism#:~:text=Roman Catholics and Protestants alike,first Anabaptist martyr in 1527.

 

Anabaptists are Christians who believe in delaying baptism until the candidate confesses his or her faith in Christ, as opposed to being baptized as an infant.

Anabaptists were heavily persecuted during the 16th century and into the 17th century by both Protestants and Roman Catholics, including being drowned and burned at the stake.

Anabaptists were often in conflict with civil society because part of their belief was to follow scripture at all costs, no matter the wishes of secular authority.

Continuing persecution in Europe was largely responsible for the mass emigrations to North America by Amish, Hutterites, and Mennonites, some of the major branches of Anabaptists.

 

Roman Catholics and Protestants alike persecuted the Anabaptists, resorting to torture and execution in attempts to curb the growth of the movement. The Protestants under Zwingli were the first to persecute the Anabaptists, with Felix Manz becoming the first martyr in 1527. On May 20, 1527, Roman Catholic authorities executed Michael Sattler. King Ferdinand declared drowning (called the third baptism) “the best antidote to Anabaptism.” The Tudor regime, even the Protestant monarchs (Edward VI of England and Elizabeth I of England), persecuted Anabaptists, as they were deemed too radical and therefore a danger to religious stability. The persecution of Anabaptists was condoned by ancient laws of Theodosius I and Justinian I that were passed against the Donatists, which decreed the death penalty for any who practiced re-baptism. Martyrs Mirror, by Thieleman J. van Braght, describes the persecution and execution of thousands of Anabaptists in various parts of Europe between 1525 and 1660. Continuing persecution in Europe was largely responsible for the mass emigrations to North America by Amish, Hutterites, and Mennonites.

https://courses.lumenlearning.com/suny-hccc-worldhistory/chapter/the-anabaptists/

 

The vehemence and intransigence of the Anabaptist leaders and the revolutionary implications of their teaching led to their expulsion from one city after another. This simply increased the momentum of an essentially missionary movement. Soon civil magistrates took sterner measures, and most of the early Anabaptist leaders died in prison or were executed.

Despite increasing persecution, new Anabaptist communities and teachings emerged under new leaders. Balthasar Hubmaier (executed in Vienna in 1528) introduced Anabaptism to Moravia, whose ruling elite welcomed colonies of Anabaptists and other settlers. A unique type of Anabaptism, developed later in Moravia under the leadership of Jakob Hutter, stressed the common ownership of goods modeled on the primitive church in Jerusalem. The Hutterite colonies first established in Moravia survived the Reformation and are now located primarily in the western United States and Canada. Another important leader, Melchior Hofmann, established a large following in the Netherlands and inspired a number of disciples. He taught that the world would soon end and that the new age would begin in Strasbourg. He was imprisoned in that city in 1533 and died about 10 years later.

Some of Hofmann’s followers, such as the Dutchman Jan Mathijs (died 1534) and John of Leiden (Jan Beuckelson; died 1536), and many persecuted Anabaptists settled in Münster, Westphalia. Hofmann’s disciples were attracted to the city by dramatic changes that occurred there in the early 1530s. Under the influence of the Reformer Bernhard Rothman, Anabaptist sentiment was strong enough there to elect an Anabaptist majority to the city council in 1533. This was followed, under the direction of Mathijs and John of Leiden, by the expulsion and persecution of all non-Anabaptists and the creation of a messianic kingdom under John of Leiden. The city was surrounded in 1534 by an army of Catholics and Protestants, which perhaps encouraged further reforms, including the common ownership of goods and polygamy, both with the declaration of biblical precedent. The city was captured in 1535, and the Anabaptist leaders were tortured and killed and their bodies hung in steel cages from the steeple of St. Lambert’s church.

Historians regard the episode at Münster as an aberration of the Anabaptist movement. In the years following it, however, Protestants and Catholics increased their persecution of Anabaptists throughout Europe without discriminating between the belligerent minority and the pacifist majority. The pacifist Anabaptists in the Netherlands and northern Germany rallied under the leadership of the former priest Menno Simons and his associate Dirk Philips. Their followers survived and were eventually accepted as the Mennonite church.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Anabaptists

 

 

I don't remember "why" you asked me to research the persecution of Anabaptists.  But if you're asking me to defend certain "actions" "policies" etc of the Church, especially during the  middle-ages, I have not studied it in depth...not nearly enough to have a worthy discussion on the topic. 

But one thing I will say on the topic is that as unfortunate as those events were, they also lead to reformations within the Catholic Church..starting around the time when Anabaptists were persecuted. (Council of Trent)   Those reformations continued to the first Vatican Council and then the Second Vatican Council.  The Catholic Church of 2020 (Especially with Pope Francis) opposes persecution of other religions and other belief systems.  Pope Francis has gone on record stating things like, "Who are we to judge?" when asked about specific topics like "homosexuality" (which historically has always been opposed by the church). 

The move towards being a truly humanitarian establishment...one that represents the true values of Christ; not just in Spirit and through the sacraments but in good deeds, charity, education, healthcare, social work, etc etc etc....  is more evident now, than ever, imo.

 

 

Spoiler

I researched "one" of your topics.  The ball is in your court now. 

 

Edited July 22, 2020 by Kasanova King