The Religion/Spirituality Thread

[DieselDaisy]

 

[DieselDaisy]

1 minute ago, SoulMonster said:

And I am not saying it isn't more likely to be genuine just that it is unlikely to be genuine. 

It probably is one of the first extant, fake relics to have been made to exploit the gullibility of poor christian believers. 

It would be a poor historian to disregard the authenticity of every artifact simply because of (far) later interpolations and abuses. 

[Dazey]

Any fans of Cradle of Filth in here?  

[SoulMonster]

 

5 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

It would be a poor historian to disregard the authenticity of every artifact simply because of (far) later interpolations and abuses. 

No one is disregarding the possibility, just acknowledging its unlikelihood. 

[DieselDaisy]

3 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

No one is disregarding the possibility, just acknowledging its unlikelihood. 

And my point is that unlikelihood is far less than other relics - even relics derived from far later periods. These items did exist at one time; the chances are that, while the majority are fake medievalisms, one or two of them are probably genuine. I maintain that the Notre-Dame Crown of Thorns has a better claim to authenticity than any of the other relics from the New Testament because of its Patriarchal-Jerusalem origin.

If it first re-surfaced in Byzantium possession, or worse still Capetian possession, I'd agree with you.

[soon]

[Iron MikeyJ]

1 hour ago, ZoSoRose said:

Art is art (especially rock n roll). If you can't see that... whelp...

 

While to a certain degree I don't disagree with you, but the things that an artist's is into directly gets reflected in their art. So if an artist's personal beliefs are satanic, those influences WILL be in their work. At that point, we (as listeners) to either support or reject them. That's my point. If you are fine with it, then more power to you. 

As for the song Black Sabbath, it's QUITE apparent. 

According to the band, the song was inspired by an experience that Geezer Butler had in the days of Earth. Butler, obsessed with the occult at the time, painted his apartment matte black, placed several inverted crucifixes, and put many pictures of Satan on the walls. Ozzy Osbourne handed Butler a black occult book, written in Latin and decorated with numerous pictures of Satan. Butler read the book and then placed it on a shelf beside his bed before going to sleep. When he woke up, he claims he saw a large black figure standing at the end of his bed, staring at him. The figure vanished and Butler ran to the shelf where he had placed the book earlier, but the book was gone. Butler related this story to Osbourne, who then wrote the lyrics to the song based on Butler's experience.^[1] The song starts with the lyrics:

What is this that stands before me?
Figure in black which points at me

[classicrawker]

Always thought this clip from the movie " The Book of Eli" summed up the Catholic religion pretty well for me and the use of the Bible by the church to try to control peoples lives.

For those not familiar with the movie plot the world was damaged by some unknown  catastrophe  and most of the bibles were burned by the survivors. In this scene the local strong man, Gary Oldman, has been searching for a bible so he can use it to control people like a televangelist and expand his power.

 

 

[DieselDaisy]

8 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

While to a certain degree I don't disagree with you, but the things that an artist's is into directly gets reflected in their art. So if an artist's personal beliefs are satanic, those influences WILL be in their work. At that point, we (as listeners) to either support or reject them. That's my point. If you are fine with it, then more power to you. 

As for the song Black Sabbath, it's QUITE apparent. 

According to the band, the song was inspired by an experience that Geezer Butler had in the days of Earth. Butler, obsessed with the occult at the time, painted his apartment matte black, placed several inverted crucifixes, and put many pictures of Satan on the walls. Ozzy Osbourne handed Butler a black occult book, written in Latin and decorated with numerous pictures of Satan. Butler read the book and then placed it on a shelf beside his bed before going to sleep. When he woke up, he claims he saw a large black figure standing at the end of his bed, staring at him. The figure vanished and Butler ran to the shelf where he had placed the book earlier, but the book was gone. Butler related this story to Osbourne, who then wrote the lyrics to the song based on Butler's experience.^[1] The song starts with the lyrics:

What is this that stands before me?
Figure in black which points at me

Just a load of stoned Brummies.

[Iron MikeyJ]

During a July 2001 interview with Geezer Butler, Guitar World magazine explained that "having borrowed a 16th century tome of black magic from Osbourne one afternoon, Butler awoke that night to find a black shape staring balefully at him from the foot of his bed. After a few frightening moments, the figure slowly vanished into thin air." Geezer continued to describe how he "told Ozzy about it. It stuck in his mind, and when we started playing 'Black Sabbath', he just came out with those lyrics. It had to come out, and it eventually did in that song - and then there was only one possible name for the band, really

No!!!

• 6,666 views

[ZoSoRose]

15 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

While to a certain degree I don't disagree with you, but the things that an artist's is into directly gets reflected in their art. So if an artist's personal beliefs are satanic, those influences WILL be in their work. At that point, we (as listeners) to either support or reject them. That's my point. If you are fine with it, then more power to you. 

As for the song Black Sabbath, it's QUITE apparent. 

According to the band, the song was inspired by an experience that Geezer Butler had in the days of Earth. Butler, obsessed with the occult at the time, painted his apartment matte black, placed several inverted crucifixes, and put many pictures of Satan on the walls. Ozzy Osbourne handed Butler a black occult book, written in Latin and decorated with numerous pictures of Satan. Butler read the book and then placed it on a shelf beside his bed before going to sleep. When he woke up, he claims he saw a large black figure standing at the end of his bed, staring at him. The figure vanished and Butler ran to the shelf where he had placed the book earlier, but the book was gone. Butler related this story to Osbourne, who then wrote the lyrics to the song based on Butler's experience.^[1] The song starts with the lyrics:

What is this that stands before me?
Figure in black which points at me

 

6 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

During a July 2001 interview with Geezer Butler, Guitar World magazine explained that "having borrowed a 16th century tome of black magic from Osbourne one afternoon, Butler awoke that night to find a black shape staring balefully at him from the foot of his bed. After a few frightening moments, the figure slowly vanished into thin air." Geezer continued to describe how he "told Ozzy about it. It stuck in his mind, and when we started playing 'Black Sabbath', he just came out with those lyrics. It had to come out, and it eventually did in that song - and then there was only one possible name for the band, really

No!!!

• 6,666 views

Well I don't believe in Hell or black magic or anything like that.

I do believe Sabbath is a kick ass band. One of the best. 

This is one of my favorite all out jams, 

Geezer and Bill were magic together

 

[Iron MikeyJ]

So even Geezer himself said so, are you calling him a liar then? He just made the whole thing up?

[ZoSoRose]

6 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

So even Geezer himself said so, are you calling him a liar then? He just made the whole thing up?

I guess so, makes for a fun little "rock n roll" story

Or drugs, I think those guys liked 'em

[DieselDaisy]

It is ridiculous to decide how you enjoy art based on that person having opposing beliefs. You need to compartmentalise these things in life. I'd apply the same argument to Christians who don't listen to genuine satanic bands because of religion, Norwegian black metal and Slayer and all of that rubbish, as I still say that Sabbath were just a bunch of stoned Brummies who were into Hammer Horror films. And the Robert Johnson thing is one of those legendary apocryphal stories, almost like a ''rock n' roll'' founding myth that gets passed on like Chinese whispers; it really should not determine anything. 

Edited February 20, 2018 by DieselDaisy

[ZoSoRose]

2 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

It is ridiculous to decide how you enjoy art based on that person having opposing beliefs. You need to compartmentalise these things in life. I'd apply the same argument to Christians who enjoy genuine satanic bands, Norwegian black metal and Slayer and all of that rubbish, as I still say that Sabbath were just a bunch of stoned Brummies who were into Hammer Horror films. And the Robert Johnson thing is one of those legendary apocryphal stories, almost like a ''rock n' roll'' founding myth that gets passed on like Chinese whispers; it really should not determine anything. 

This 

I know you like a lot of those bands and artists, Mike. You shouldn't stop listening to them if you genuinely like the music. Goes against everything art and rock should stand for. 

[Len Cnut]

My take home from this is that the devils powers of inspiration are touch and go at best.  One the one hand he can inspire fuckin' brilliance like Robert Johnson...then on the other hand absolute bollocks like Black Sabbath   

56 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

It is ridiculous to decide how you enjoy art based on that person having opposing beliefs. You need to compartmentalise these things in life. I'd apply the same argument to Christians who don't listen to genuine satanic bands because of religion, Norwegian black metal and Slayer and all of that rubbish, as I still say that Sabbath were just a bunch of stoned Brummies who were into Hammer Horror films. And the Robert Johnson thing is one of those legendary apocryphal stories, almost like a ''rock n' roll'' founding myth that gets passed on like Chinese whispers; it really should not determine anything. 

Robert Johnson was naff at playing guitar, buggered off a bit and came back playing well, its called practise  

Edited February 20, 2018 by Len Cnut

[soon]

[bucketfoot]

1 hour ago, DieselDaisy said:

as I still say that Sabbath were just a bunch of stoned Brummies who were into Hammer Horror films.

I remember seeing a clip of Ozzy where he said the only thing he ever conjured up was a good fart in the morning.

[SoulMonster]

4 hours ago, soon said:

Chris's teachings.  Including not lying.  

Sure. But then you have all the people who call themselves christians yet say you can lie and still be a christian (our friend @Iron MikeyJ here has already explained how you can sin and then confess and all is good again). As a non-christian I am not going to go into that discussion, it is not for me to define what a christian is. The power to define that lies with those who claim to be christians, not those who aren't. If people say they are christian then I respect that. Period. 

But back to my point: I think it is obvious that christians (people calling themselves christians) back in the Middle Ages (and before and after) knew some of the relics they had were obvious forgeries. There simple couldn't be THAT many dishrevelled dicks of St. Dickus. In other words, christians (people calling themselves christians) deliberately lied about the realness of supposedly holy items, supposedly to attract religious pilgrims who would give prestige, power and money to whatever churches contained the forgeries. You might say that these people couldn't possibly be christians, because what they did weren't christian in nature. Fine. That is your axe to grind, not mine.

[SoulMonster]

Then we have come to another thing that is really moronic about theism: Believers refusing to enjoy art they'd otherwise like because it supposedly goes against whatever they think their particular hero in the sky would like. Talk about painting oneself into the stupid corner.

[Len Cnut]

The Devil would have to be one thick cunt to look at this planet full of fuckin’ potential people to do his dastardly work...and the best he could come up with is Geezer Butler and Ozzy Osbourne

[SoulMonster]

2 hours ago, Len Cnut said:

The Devil would have to be one thick cunt to look at this planet full of fuckin’ potential people to do his dastardly work...and the best he could come up with is Geezer Butler and Ozzy Osbourne

The Devil is not smarter than whoever believes in him. 

[Len Cnut]

There are those y'know, within the Christian faith, who believe that all music inherently encourages sin or else takes you away from Godly thoughts, except that which praises the Lord.  Even dancing too, which apparently is inherently sexual in nature.  There's only one way they're allowed to dance and its something to do with like, some thing in the bible where someone prances or something, I remember reference to a lamb in there but I might be wrong on that count.  Its like a very particular kind of dancing that you can do that the Bible allows, fuck knows what it is but I'm pretty sure it ain't twerking

In Islam, if you go by the exact letter of what the religion states, so I've heard, all music, anything with like, a rhythm or whatever is bad because like...rhythm is like intoxication, it takes over your mind and takes you away from praising the Lord, which apparently is the function of the human race.  No one I ever heard of actually lives like that but I wouldn't be surprised if they're out there.  Thats why they don't go for meditation and the repeating of mantras and that, cuz of the same principle, it apparently takes you away from your senses.  Mental innit?

[soon]

5 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

Then we have come to another thing that is really moronic about theism: Believers refusing to enjoy art they'd otherwise like because it supposedly goes against whatever they think their particular hero in the sky would like. Talk about painting oneself into the stupid corner.

But its you who harbours the incorrect notion that Jesus is in the sky.  It would be silly for Christianity to be based on that, but Christianity isn't based on that.  Christianity is based on the presence of God.  The Creator God, the indwelling of the Spirit, the relationship with Christ and the living word, etc.  These are very prominent, core aspects of the faith.

All of the believers in this discussion embrace secular art.  One guy just said he has a few reservations.  Its a fucking GNR site this discussion is taking place on, lol.  It almost looks like people might get excited when they recognize a subject enough to argue it; even if theres, in truth, no other side to argue it against.

[SoulMonster]

54 minutes ago, soon said:

But its you who harbours the incorrect notion that Jesus is in the sky.  It would be silly for Christianity to be based on that, but Christianity isn't based on that.  Christianity is based on the presence of God.  The Creator God, the indwelling of the Spirit, the relationship with Christ and the living word, etc.  These are very prominent, core aspects of the faith.

All of the believers in this discussion embrace secular art.  One guy just said he has a few reservations.  Its a fucking GNR site this discussion is taking place on, lol.  It almost looks like people might get excited when they recognize a subject enough to argue it; even if theres, in truth, no other side to argue it against.

I talked about theism, not christianity, when I used the expression 'hero in the sky'. Of course many theists have through times believed in gods living in the heavens above us (Thor is literally a hero in the sky), but that was not really relevant to my point. Whether you as a goddict believe in a god that inhabits a particular place (heaven, Uhuru, Hel, bottom of the ocean, the back of a sea turtle, or wherever), is ubiquitous and everywhere, or is contained within us or within animals, doesn't change my point. 

And yes, some theists, including christians (people who call themselves christians) reject art they would otherwise enjoy because they are afraid it is against their religion. Not all of them, but some. Too many.