The Religion/Spirituality Thread

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4 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

I talked about theism, not christianity, when I used the expression 'hero in the sky'. Of course many theists have through times believed in gods living in the heavens above us (Thor is literally a hero in the sky), but that was not really relevant to my point. Whether you as a goddict believe in a god that inhabits a particular place (heaven, Uhuru, Hel, bottom of the ocean, the back of a sea turtle, or wherever), is ubiquitous and everywhere, or is contained within us or within animals, doesn't change my point. 

And yes, some theists, including christians (people who call themselves christians) reject art they would otherwise enjoy because they are afraid it is against their religion. Not all of them, but some. Too many. 

I would say that it does change your point if applied to Christianity.  But I see that you werent - despite the conversation having centred around Christianty. Okay, so thats fine.

I think it could be true that some peoples dogmatic imaginations are strictly fear based.  I reject the idea that anytime a spiritual person opts in or out of anything worldly it is for the reason you say.  There are many reasons.  Some are no doubt difficult for an outsider to define.  But I dont see how it would be hard to understand that someone might want to fully immerse themselves in hymns and spirituals, therefore leaving aside secular music.  Just because they love being with God in music.  Or said differently; in touch with the sacred via music.  And for them secular music just feel like it gets in the way of what they are seeking in this profound thing that is music.  

Basically legalism isn the logical conclusion to jump to, even if there are those for whom that would be a fair concern.

[SoulMonster]

4 minutes ago, soon said:

I would say that it does change your point if applied to Christianity.  But I see that you werent - despite the conversation having centred around Christianty. Okay, so thats fine.

I think it could be true that some peoples dogmatic imaginations are strictly fear based.  I reject the idea that anytime a spiritual person opts in or out of anything worldly it is for the reason you say.  There are many reasons.  Some are no doubt difficult for an outsider to define.  But I dont see how it would be hard to understand that someone might want to fully immerse themselves in hymns and spirituals, therefore leaving aside secular music.  Just because they love being with God in music.  Or said differently; in touch with the sacred via music.  And for them secular music just feel like it gets in the way of what they are seeking in this profound thing that is music.  

Basically legalism isn the logical conclusion to jump to, even if there are those for whom that would be a fair concern.

I wasn't talking about theists choosing between religious music or secular music, but theists deciding that some forms of secular music shouldn't be listened to or some forms of paintings goes against the religion or whatever. Case in point catholics who can't listen to certain forms of rock because they feel the lyrics, or just the beat, or the effect it has on people, is anti-christian. This isn't merely an academic point. Such people exist. Back where I grew up we had kids who rejected almost all kinds of rock because it was the devil's music (except U2, ironically, because some members of that band was supposedly christians). Our resident catholic has illustrated this point, too. And it is not contained to only music. Other forms of arts may also be subjected to the same ridiculous censorship. I remember with horror a wedding I attended (because my girlfriend back then was best friends to the very religious bride - who later had an affair and divorced her husband) where the only entertainment allowed, because music and dancing was frowned upon - wait for it - was to pass round crap stuff the groom had made in carpenter's class. No alcohol, no music, no dancing, no fun, just faking admiration for shitty things. I remember hanging outside with some other shell-hocked non-relatives, sipping alcohol from a flask, hoping no one would see us. 

[soon]

8 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

I wasn't talking about theists choosing between religious music or secular music, but theists deciding that some forms of secular music shouldn't be listened to or some forms of paintings goes against the religion or whatever. Case in point catholics who can't listen to certain forms of rock because they feel the lyrics, or just the beat, or the effect it has on people, is anti-christian. This isn't merely an academic point. Such people exist. Back where I grew up we had kids who rejected almost all kinds of rock because it was the devil's music (except U2, ironically, because some members of that band was supposedly christians). Our resident catholic has illustrated this point, too. And it is not contained to only music. Other forms of arts may also be subjected to the same ridiculous censorship. I remember with horror a wedding I attended (because my girlfriend back then was best friends to the very religious bride - who later had an affair and divorced her husband) where the only entertainment allowed, because music and dancing was frowned upon - wait for it - was to pass round crap stuff the groom had made in carpenter's class. No alcohol, no music, no dancing, no fun, just faking admiration for shitty things. I remember hanging outside with some other shell-hocked non-relatives, sipping alcohol from a flask, hoping no one would see us. 

I dont believe Ive denied that this can be the case.  Legalism is the term I used to describe this.  But even about Mikey, he stated clearly that part of his needs in the passed was to avoid temptation.  And he said that for him, rock music hooked him back into aspects of his being that he was seeking to turn away from.  So good for him.  That wasnt legalism.  And none of us can claim to know the whys or hows of its temptation to him.

That said, I sure do disagree with him on some of what he said about his life today and his reasons. 

Also, an extreme example: if someone makes a video of self mutilation that leads to their death as a work of art; most of the world would choose not to watch it.  I for one am comfortable to exist on a spectrum of needs and desires.

Edit: forgot to LOL about that odd wittler

Edited February 21, 2018 by soon

[soon]

[ZoSoRose]

2 hours ago, Len Cnut said:

Mental innit?

Yup

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[Blackstar]

RE: The crown of thorns.

The fact alone that it's not mentioned in sources earlier than the 5th century makes its authenticity highly doubtful imo (probably those monks and pilgrims really believed it was genuine). Yes, the mentions of it are early compared to those about other relics, but it's still a long time from the event it's related to.

It's unknown when the crown was transferred to Constantinople, and even if it was the same as the one mentioned in the early sources. It was there in the 11th century along with many other relics, like supposed fragments of the cross, Jesus' garments, the sponge, the lance, nails, the so called Mandylion (something similar to the shroud of Turin) etc. There are stories about before the 11th century- I don't know how accurate they are and the sources they originate from - that Eastern Roman/Byzantine emperors gave thorns from that crown as presents to various leaders and churches, and they, in turn, gave some to others, so there are thorns which are claimed to be from the "original" crown in various locations all over Europe. The veneration of relics was very common in Byzantium, at least from the 6th-7th century.

All of those relics, along with many valuable artifacts, were taken from Constantinople after it was conquered by the Crusaders in 1204 and the Byzantine empire was replaced by "Latin Empire of Constantinople" - an empire only in name, as it was very weak politically (in its most part consisted of autonomous feudal states) and economically. The last emperor of the Latin Empire sold the crown and other relics to Louis IX of France through Venice; the Venetians took the crown as security for a loan to Baldwin and subsequently Louis bought it from them.

 

[Iron MikeyJ]

What you have to understand in regards to my decision is that during my teens and 20s I turned TO many of these practises. Even though I was born and raised Catholic, I felt a STRONG pull towards the occult. I went through some personal issues at this time as well, that made me want to search for God if you will, even if that meant searching in areas that were "evil". I practised occult rituals, tarot cards, other forms of fortune telling cards, I even read the Necronomicon (not the book from Evil Dead, but an actual book). The "truth" that I found in that search was that they don't contradict ANYTHING I learned in church, just more of the story, from a different perspective. But I DO very much believe they opened "doors" to things that I consider to be incorrect, and spiritually unhealthy. I'm not going to go into details, but I will say this, if you need to SEE in order to believe, this route knows that, and will feed that desire. But I HIGHLY recommend people DON'T go that route. I FIRMLY believe it opens you up to all sorts of "evil". Honestly, when I was in my early 20s, if I could have sold my soul like Robert Johnson did, I would have jumped at that opportunity. Which I DID have "things" approach me through music related avenues. But I was too much of a chicken to ever go through with it. So I VERY much believe that MANY famous musicians DID in fact go that route, to varying degrees. Now I pray for those souls that did, and I beg of others to NOT even try. My old band (Foxy and the Hounds) even had a song called Tarot Cards.

Honestly once I saw things and felt things, it only made me feel certain that an after life does exist. So I no longer "believe" I feel I KNOW. I began to ask myself though, if it's all true, which side do I want to be on? So I turned away from all of those things, and never looked back. I didn't return to the church immediately though. I didn't feel THAT pull until the birth of my son. But even then I had (and my family) had MANY encounters with "demons" if you will. We had to take protection from things that I let into our life. Now I keep holy water in our house, and sprinkle it around quite often. I carry a rosary in my pocket whenever I leave the house, and my wife and daughter wear necklaces that the church deems "protection" from unholy spirits. 

I'm sure many of you will think I'm just crazy, and that's fine. I say these things not to change or convert anyone (but if they do, that's awesome). I say these things because they are MY truths. They are a part of my story. So YES listening to the song Black Sabbath in particular, I find to be unhealthy. 

As for Crowley, MANY occultists actually mock him and consider him to be a joke. The fact that he tried SO hard though, and the things OTHERS have felt and experienced in his home is good enough for me. So even though Ozzy might have been mocking him, I take that Ozzy is deeper down that rabbit hole than people realize. 

[soon]

@Iron MikeyJ I think you might really enjoy and take from St Teresa of Avila's book, The Interior Castle.  Perhaps you have read it already?  It discusses the journey of spirituality and the process of revelations.  Like a 'practical guide for mystics' if you will, lol.  She was urged to write it during a time of suspicion and oppression in the Catholic church.  She was urged to write it so that her mysticism and its purpose could not be confused by the hierarchy.  It is very mystical and very concrete all at once.

 

PS: Really glad that you've returned from those others corners of spirituality!

[Len Cnut]

Fair dues if thats what you believe Michael but hand on heart here, not talking about your religious beliefs here, I'm talking about the occult...its all a load of bollocks.  Fuckin' show me this place where I can sell my soul and I will fuckin' do it right now and I guarantee you I'll wake up tommorow morning the same twat I went to bed as, its all a load of fuckin' flannel, its fuckin' geek stuff, thats all it is.  I understand its an on-going thing in human history and its valuable in that sense, from like a historian point of view but in terms of their being any substance to it, do me a fuckin' favour   I'll read any fuckin' book, bring the fuckin' Ladybird book of Witches out and all that, its bollocks. 

Seriously, tell me how to sell my soul and I'll do it right fuckin' now   As far as I'm concerned we're all flesh and bone and when thats done they'll stick us in the ground and we're fuckin' worm food, the end and if there is any fuckin' devil, any satan out there I hope you're listening son because if i can sell my fuckin' soul to play guitar like Robert Johnson you can have it, come get it now, there's a fuckin' soul going begging here Satan, I'm your fuckin' man, come on

Fuckin' Tarot Cards, my sister used to do that bollocks, Wicca and all that, its fuckin' hilairious   Y'know where she is now?  Living in town raising two fuckin' kids, thats where she is, fuck all happened to her

Edited February 21, 2018 by Len Cnut

[Iron MikeyJ]

As for sin and confession, confession isn't a free pass to sin. God knows that we humans are SINNERS though. As far as I know, only 4 humans were ever born without sin; Jesus, Mary, Adam, and Eve. Adam and Eve's failure is pretty obvious, so they didn't remain sinless. Jesus did of course, and as far as we know Mary did also. Many Saints came close, but I'm sure they sinned at times as well. So the rest of us... we NEED confession.

[Iron MikeyJ]

4 minutes ago, soon said:

@Iron MikeyJ I think you might really enjoy and take from St Teresa of Avila's book, The Interior Castle.  Perhaps you have read it already?  It discusses the journey of spirituality and the process of revelations.  Like a 'practical guide for mystics' if you will, lol.  She was urged to write it during a time of suspicion and oppression in the Catholic church.  She was urged to write it so that her mysticism and its purpose could not be confused by the hierarchy.  It is very mystical and very concrete all at once.

 

PS: Really glad that you've returned from those others corners of spirituality!

Good stuff!! Although I haven't read this book, I DID take a class (over the summer) at my church which was based on a lot her writings (as well as St. Faustina, and St. Ignatius, as well as others). Honestly it was REALLY powerful stuff, both my wife and I got a lot out of it.

[Iron MikeyJ]

9 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

Fair dues if thats what you believe Michael but hand on heart here, not talking about your religious beliefs here, I'm talking about the occult...its all a load of bollocks.  Fuckin' show me this place where I can sell my soul and I will fuckin' do it right now and I guarantee you I'll wake up tommorow morning the same twat I went to bed as, its all a load of fuckin' flannel, its fuckin' geek stuff, thats all it is.  I understand its an on-going thing in human history and its valuable in that sense, from like a historian point of view but in terms of their being any substance to it, do me a fuckin' favour   I'll read any fuckin' book, bring the fuckin' Ladybird book of Witches out and all that, its bollocks. 

Seriously, tell me how to sell my soul and I'll do it right fuckin' now   As far as I'm concerned we're all flesh and bone and when thats done they'll stick us in the ground and we're fuckin' worm food, the end and if there is any fuckin' devil, any satan out there I hope you're listening son because if i can sell my fuckin' soul to play guitar like Robert Johnson you can have it, come get it now, there's a fuckin' soul going begging here Satan, I'm your fuckin' man, come on

Honestly man, what need would he have to do that for you? He ALREADY has Atheists by default. Which I don't say that as condemning (so don't take it that way). 

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5 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

Good stuff!! Although I haven't read this book, I DID take a class (over the summer) at my church which was based on a lot her writings (as well as St. Faustina, and St. Ignatius, as well as others). Honestly it was REALLY powerful stuff, both my wife and I got a lot out of it.

Nice, man!  I read it with someone else and the conversation was really helpful.  As an aside, a Christian elder of mine used to take Ignatius spiritual retreats.  It escapes me what that entailed, but they got a lot outta it and by extension I suppose I did too.

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3 hours ago, Len Cnut said:

 Its like a very particular kind of dancing that you can do that the Bible allows, fuck knows what it is but I'm pretty sure it ain't twerking

 

Id posted this earlier but it seems fitting:

 

[Len Cnut]

11 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

Honestly man, what need would he have to do that for you? He ALREADY has Atheists by default. Which I don't say that as condemning (so don't take it that way). 

Oh shit, so I'm an agent of Satan?   Nice one!  Keep talking to me long enough and I'll drag you into the fold   It is mildly condemning though isn't it?  I mean if you believe I'm hellbound for being the way I am, and Gods whole set up is perfect which by definition it is then, well, you can't get more condemned than that, can you?   Its cool though because uh...its bullshit

Edited February 21, 2018 by Len Cnut

[Iron MikeyJ]

1 minute ago, soon said:

Nice, man!  I read it with someone else and the conversation was really helpful.  As an aside, a Christian elder of mine used to take Ignatius spiritual retreats.  It escapes me what that entailed, but they got a lot outta it and by extension I suppose I did too.

That's EXACTLY what my class was, it was based on Ignatius retreats. But they tend to be VERY costly, and VERY extensive. So my class was sorta condensed version, but also with additions from the others I mentioned. 

[soon]

4 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

That's EXACTLY what my class was, it was based on Ignatius retreats. But they tend to be VERY costly, and VERY extensive. So my class was sorta condensed version, but also with additions from the others I mentioned. 

Nice!  Makes me even more convinced you should check out The Interior Castle.

[Iron MikeyJ]

7 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

Oh shit, so I'm an agent of Satan?   Nice one!  Keep talking to me long enough and I'll drag you into the fold

Honestly man, that's how it works. God works through HIS believers, so me, Soon, and KK are clearly HIS representives around here, lol. 

Which Satan works the same way, but his message is more muddled. Sure he has Satanists, Occultists, but he also has non believers like Atheists. 

Agnostics tend to be the "middle ground". They can go either way. 

But don't fret Lenny, I love you!! It's not to late for you!! Sometimes it takes deathbed confessions, better late than never. 

BTW, I'm too strong in my faith for you to drag me down with you 😃

Edited February 21, 2018 by Iron MikeyJ

[Iron MikeyJ]

2 minutes ago, soon said:

Nice!  Makes me even more convinced you should check out The Interior Castle.

I WILL check it out.

[Whiskey Rose]

You know, I've always wondered if there was a correlation between those people who have religious experiences or the type of thing @Iron MikeyJ describes (thanks for sharing btw, very powerful stuff) and psychedlic drugs. And by that i mean, on psychedelics, your mind becomes a sort of conduit doesn't it, to things you wouldn't normally experience.. and so i wonder, what if certain people's brains, are not normally closed to that type of thing, what if they are already a conduit, without needing the drugs? And that's why certain people experience these things, and certain people don't. Fascinating stuff. 

[Len Cnut]

8 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

Honestly man, that's how it works. God works through HIS believers, so me, Soon, and KK are clearly HIS representives around here, lol. 

Which Satan works the same way, but his message is more muddled. Sure he has Satanists, Occultists, but he also has non believers like Atheists. 

Agnostics tend to be the "middle ground". They can go either way. 

But don't fret Lenny, I love you!! It's not to late for you!! Sometimes it takes deathbed confessions, better late than never. 

BTW, I'm too strong in my faith for you to drag me down with you 😃

I got a tattoo of the mark of Satan.  No shit, got it done on a wind up to annoy a believer friend of mine, bit of a whim thing and fair dues I'd have a few at the time, the reaction was worth it   Y'know what the problem with this whole argument is though, I'm never gonna win, I'll never get to say 'see? told you so!' cuz in my ending, the real one, we all end up in pine boxes, in your ending you'll at least be able to stop at the pearly gates, look down the escalator and go 'HA HA!'  

[Iron MikeyJ]

2 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

I got a tattoo of the mark of Satan.  No shit, got it done on a wind up to annoy a believer friend of mine, bit of a whim thing and fair dues I'd have a few at the time, the reaction was worth it   Y'know what the problem with this whole argument is though, I'm never gonna win, I'll never get to say 'see? told you so!' cuz in my ending, the real one, we all end up in pine boxes, in your ending you'll at least be able to stop at the pearly gates, look down the escalator and go 'HA HA!'  

I wouldn't do that though Len. I would pray for your soul. I would ask the Lord to have mercy on you.

[soon]

10 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

I WILL check it out.

Outta likes.  2 dolphins!