Iron MikeyJ Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 2 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: My belief that humanity would be better off without theism is based on a cost-benefit analysis taking into account the problems with theisms and its various benefits. It is a rational approach. You might not agree with my conclusion, and I will be the first to point out it is a hard one, yet it is principally different from a belief in supernatural creatures. What is this cost-benifit anylsis you speak of? Is this an actual scientific study or just your personal beliefs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron MikeyJ Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 China is the country with the MOST Atheists, where would you rank the quality of life in China? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron MikeyJ Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 21 hours ago, SoulMonster said: Of course she won't let you spill your seed. You're right, I am not evil. But I do represent a wave of people who reject theism for various reasons, who find the belief in gods irrational, mindless and damaging. And we are growing in numbers. Already there are more atheists than theists in Norway, a country who repeatedly score at the top of all lists of welfare and happiness. I expect the same development in USA. With luck we will see this happen across the globe, and belief in gods, just like belief in any other supernatural creatures like unicorns, ghosts and Santa Clause, will die out. And humanity will be better off for it. These are YOUR words my friend. It VERY much sounds like you were drawing that conclusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 Just now, Iron MikeyJ said: China is the country with the MOST Atheists, where would you rank the quality of life in China? I don't know where to start. I have never claimed a secular society is guaranteed a high quality of life. Again, I am not arguing causality. It doesn't matter where I personally rank anything, DieselDaisy has already demonstrated how easily one can arrive at wrong conclusions when using subjective musings. (And IF I WAS arguing that this is caused by atheism - which I am not, and you should know this by now - the absolute number would be irrelevant). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 3 hours ago, SoulMonster said: It is also not an argument I have made My point, and you might want to pay attention now, is that highly secular societies can be leading in terms of quality of life and prosperity, and hence we don't need theism. I am not saying that secularism guarantees a great country, a secular country can be terrible, of course, just that it can work really, really well. As for Norway, only 48 % of those registered in the Church of Norway consider themselves christian, and one third of them say they are atheists Recent polls say that about 50 % of Norwegians don't consider themselves as believers. If someone is interested in actual studies on quality of life, and not the subjective musings of DieselDaisy, then this recent article should be interesting: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/01/how-s-life-where-you-are/ As can be seen, Norway and other highly secular countries perform really well. I am not arguing a causality, just that this proves we can create great societies without theism. Then it is not even an argument worth making! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 1 minute ago, DieselDaisy said: Then it is not even an argument worth making! What is not an argument worth making? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 1 hour ago, SoulMonster said: To follow up on my latest point, the graph below is from the aforementioned study. The y-axis shows quality of life. Norway tops with a score close to 10, followed by Finland, Iceland, Sweden, Switzerland, Denmark, The Netherlands and Canada (all between 7 and 9). Italy has a score between 3 and 4. The most dull snow-ridden countries on earth except for the pot-smoking Dutch. I mean Switzerland? Cuckoo Clocks? Nothing beats a good Catholic country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 17 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said: What is this cost-benifit anylsis you speak of? Is this an actual scientific study or just your personal beliefs? Heh, no, I highly doubt anyone has published a scientific study on the cost-benefit analysis if theism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron MikeyJ Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 5 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: I don't know where to start. I have never claimed a secular society is guaranteed a high quality of life. Again, I am not arguing causality. You DID say that you believe these things to be true though. So I'm simply asking you why this belief has any more merit than belief in God? Belief (of any kind) requires faith on the part of the believer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 1 minute ago, DieselDaisy said: The most dull snow-ridden countries on earth except for the pot-smoking Dutch. I mean Switzerland? Cuckoo Clocks? Nothing beats a good Catholic country. Apparently, in terms of quality of life, many countries beat catholic countries. But you are not good with facts that challenge your personal convictions, are you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron MikeyJ Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 1 minute ago, SoulMonster said: Heh, no, I highly doubt anyone has published a scientific study on the cost-benefit analysis if theism. So again, these are just simply YOUR beliefs? Do you see where I'm going with this yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 Just now, SoulMonster said: Apparently, in terms of quality of life, many countries beat catholic countries. But you are not good with facts that challenge your personal convictions, are you? I believe I am far more unbiased than you. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 12 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said: These are YOUR words my friend. It VERY much sounds like you were drawing that conclusion. I refuse to accept blame for you not understanding the difference between causality and correlation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron MikeyJ Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 1 minute ago, SoulMonster said: I refuse to accept blame for you not understanding the difference between causality and correlation. If you didn't BELIEVE they were correlated, than why did you even bring them up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 3 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said: You DID say that you believe these things to be true though. So I'm simply asking you why this belief has any more merit than belief in God? Belief (of any kind) requires faith on the part of the believer. Because my conclusion is based on a completely rational analysis whereas your faith is based on belief in something supernatural. Likewise, I also believe in evolutionary theory, in gravitation, and in atomic theory, all of which are highly rational explanations that never assumes the supernatural, and hence are principally different from theistic beliefs. Simply said, not all beliefs are equally well founded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron MikeyJ Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 3 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: Because my conclusion is based on a completely rational analysis whereas your faith is based on belief in something supernatural. Likewise, I also believe in evolutionary theory, in gravitation, and in atomic theory, all of which are highly rational explanations that never assumes the supernatural, and hence are principally different from theistic beliefs. Simply said, not all beliefs are equally well founded. I also believe in evolution... But that's besides the point. Who decided what beliefs are irrational or rational? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 6 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said: I believe I am far more unbiased than you. My argument is not based on whatever personal biases I might harbour, but on the results of an actual study made by others using objective and transparent criteria. You should try it once. It really strengthens your argument - just make sure you are using it on people who can understand it, otherwise you will quickly find yourself in a tsunami of confusion and irrelevant questions. 8 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said: If you didn't BELIEVE they were correlated, than why did you even bring them up? *sigh* My point was to show that we don't need theism to enjoy quality of life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 1 minute ago, SoulMonster said: My argument is not based on whatever personal biases I might harbour, but on the results of an actual study made by others using objective and transparent criteria. You should try it once. It really strengthens your argument - just make sure you are using it on people who can understand it, otherwise you will quickly find yourself in a tsunami of confusion and irrelevant questions. Smuggery and silliness. The point is you at least implied a causal relationship between atheism, the prevalence of, and the success of nation state. This causal relationship is obviously erroneous, for the aforementioned reasons stated. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 2 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said: Who decided what beliefs are irrational or rational? A rational belief would be a belief that doesn't require the violation of the physical laws as we know them and is the most likely explanation for something. An irrational belief is the belief in something despite a lack of proper evidence or despite it requiring a supernatural agent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soon Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 @SoulMonster I dont think that anyone here said theism was needed for quality of life the way a state or UN would measure it? Also as someone who has not discerned Gods love in their life; how can you set out a metric for measuring quality of life with so many categories remaining a mystery to you? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 1 minute ago, DieselDaisy said: Smuggery and silliness. The point is you at least implied a causal relationship between atheism, the prevalence of, and the success of nation state. I didn't. In fact I was very quick to point out I was not arguing causality (or even correlation). It is just that whenever you read something that smells of atheism you seem to experience some mental blockage and you lose your ability to follow simple arguments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron MikeyJ Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 3 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said: Smuggery and silliness. The point is you at least implied a causal relationship between atheism, the prevalence of, and the success of nation state. This causal relationship is obviously erroneous, for the aforementioned reasons stated. He's lost this debate, yet keeps grasping at straws. As ANYONE that has any knowledge of debating knows, the burden of proof lies with the one making a claim. He made a claim and used these "facts" to support his claim. When he got called out on the fact these are not related he's been all over the place since. Which is fine, just admit you lost 😉 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 Just now, SoulMonster said: I didn't. In fact I was very quick to point out I was not arguing causality (or even correlation). It is just that whenever you read something that smells of atheism you seem to experience some mental blockage and you lose your ability to follow simple arguments. I'd argue the same with you pertaining to religion, or ''theism'' as you like to put it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron MikeyJ Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 7 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: An irrational belief is the belief in something despite a lack of proper evidence or despite it requiring a supernatural agent. Such as the BELIEF mankind would be better WITHOUT religion. You have STILL not proven this belief my friend... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 11 minutes ago, soon said: @SoulMonster I dont think that anyone here said theism was needed for quality of life the way a state or UN would measure it? Also as someone who has not discerned Gods love in their life; how can you set out a metric for measuring quality of life with so many categories remaining a mystery to you? Again, I am arguing against a specific claim made here, I was challenged to argue for why I believe humanity would be better off without theism, and I then pointed out that there is no need to fear that losing our religion would lead to hell on earth (because many people seem to believe this). To prove that you can have high quality of life in highly secular societies, I pointed to Norway. I was a theist once. But I am not arguing from personal and subjective experiences, but from studies done by others. Are you arguing that the studies are wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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