Iron MikeyJ Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 (edited) 6 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: Again, I am arguing against a specific claim made here, I was challenged to argue for why I believe humanity would be better off without theism, and I then pointed out that there is no need to fear that losing our religion would lead to hell on earth (because many people seem to believe this). To prove that you can have high quality of life in highly secular societies, I pointed to Norway. I was a theist once. But I am not arguing from personal and subjective experiences, but from studies done by others. Are you arguing that the studies are wrong? This is a straw man argument... Edited February 22, 2018 by Iron MikeyJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 10 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said: Such as the BELIEF mankind would be better WITHOUT religion. You have STILL not proven this belief my friend... I started to make the argument but it got derailed quickly by stupidity. The point is that we would get rid of all the bad stuff that follows with theism yet we could keep most of the good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soon Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 7 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: Again, I am arguing against a specific claim made here, I was challenged to argue for why I believe humanity would be better off without theism, and I then pointed out that there is no need to fear that losing our religion would lead to hell on earth (because many people seem to believe this). To prove that you can have high quality of life in highly secular societies, I pointed to Norway. I was a theist once. But I am not arguing from personal and subjective experiences, but from studies done by others. Are you arguing that the studies are wrong? Again, Im not speaking about any studies. Im merely pointing out two things: you are the only person to say that people think their would be a societal breakdown with out theism. And two: you are unable to measure the quality of life that a reconciled relationship with the Creator brings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron MikeyJ Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 1 minute ago, SoulMonster said: I started to make the argument but it got derailed quickly by stupidity. The point is that we would get rid of all the bad stuff that follows with theism yet we could keep most of the good. Ad Hominem falacy... How many more do you want to go for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said: This is a straw man argument... No, I was pre-emptively countering an argument that I know from past experience someone will bring up whenever the benefits of secularism is discussed. Edited February 22, 2018 by SoulMonster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 1 minute ago, soon said: Again, Im not speaking about any studies. Im merely pointing out two things: you are the only person to say that people think their would be a societal breakdown with out theism. And two: you are unable to measure the quality of life that a reconciled relationship with the Creator brings. I have met that argument here on this forum before. To not get tangled in that debate again, I thought I should deal with it immediately How people can measure quality of life? Well, they can look at metrics connected with it, like life expectancy, suicide rates, equality, employment rates, and so on, or by asking people how they rate their lifes. The latter method is usually hard to use between countries, so I suppose the former is more frequently used. Does it take into account the value one get from a relationship with the Creator beings? Only as far as it has a significant effect on any of the metrics used. Most people would probably argue that if it has no such effect, it isn't worth considering as part of quality of life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron MikeyJ Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 7 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: No, I was pre-emptively encountering an argument that I know from past experience someone will bring up whenever the benefits of secularism is discussed. Setting up a false argument that you can clearly debunk is the definition of a straw man argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 8 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said: Ad Hominem falacy... How many more do you want to go for? It depends, how many things are you going to not get? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron MikeyJ Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 2 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: It depends, how many things are you going to not get? Lol, because I am the one using falacies 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron MikeyJ Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 4 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: I have met that argument here on this forum before. To not get tangled in that debate again, I thought I should deal with it immediately How people can measure quality of life? Well, they can look at metrics connected with it, like life expectancy, suicide rates, equality, employment rates, and so on, or by asking people how they rate their lifes. The latter method is usually hard to use between countries, so I suppose the former is more frequently used. Does it take into account the value one get from a relationship with the Creator beings? Only as far as it has a significant effect on any of the metrics used. Most people would probably argue that if it has no such effect, it isn't worth considering as part of quality of life. Because "theists" are the ones that commit suicide the most? So you assume to know what "most people" would argue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soon Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 5 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: I have met that argument here on this forum before. To not get tangled in that debate again, I thought I should deal with it immediately How people can measure quality of life? Well, they can look at metrics connected with it, like life expectancy, suicide rates, equality, employment rates, and so on, or by asking people how they rate their lifes. The latter method is usually hard to use between countries, so I suppose the former is more frequently used. Does it take into account the value one get from a relationship with the Creator beings? Only as far as it has a significant effect on any of the metrics used. Most people would probably argue that if it has no such effect, it isn't worth considering as part of quality of life. I didnt ask how quality of life is measured by states and UN. I understand that very well, thank you. Someone having said something to you before doesnt quite explain why you brought it up here. Actually it kinda makes it seem that you have pre-fabed debate models. And in this case its been proven that those models dont even apply to believers to the extent you thought. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 Just now, Iron MikeyJ said: Setting up a false argument that you can clearly debunk is the definition of a straw man argument. It wasn't a false argument, I was challenged by you to argue for why humanity would be better off without theism, and I briefly explained why by also countering a common objection that is doomed to be raised. If you would never have raised that point, if you are not one of those who believe that only theism can lead to good societies, then more power to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 26 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said: Because "theists" are the ones that commit suicide the most? So you assume to know what "most people" would argue? I don't know the answer to your first question, and yes to the second. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 23 minutes ago, soon said: Someone having said something to you before doesnt quite explain why you brought it up here. Actually it kinda makes it seem that you have pre-fabed debate models. And in this case its been proven that those models dont even apply to believers to the extent you thought. It is not the first time I get to explain why theism is bad for us, and invariably people argue that if it weren't for theism societies would collapse. So yes, I chose to deal with that immediately. Sorry if it wasn't relevant to you personally I don't think the fact that you or Mike aren't among those that believe theism is required for good societies, means I ought to reassess anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soon Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 7 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: It is not the first time I get to explain why theism is bad for us, and invariably people argue that if it weren't for theism societies would collapse. So yes, I chose to deal with that immediately. Sorry if it wasn't relevant to you personally I don't think the fact that you or Mike aren't among those that believe theism is required for good societies, means I ought to reassess anything. Your assumption has made this confusing and unproductive. So I'm all for you continuing that model in your quest to destroy Christianity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron MikeyJ Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 14 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: It wasn't a false argument, I was challenged by you to argue for why humanity would be better off without theism, and I briefly explained why by also countering a common objection that is doomed to be raised. If you would never have raised that point, if you are not one of those who believe that only theism can lead to good societies, then more power to you. It was irrelevant though, making it a straw man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace Nova Posted February 22, 2018 Author Share Posted February 22, 2018 Most mass shooters/serial killers/mass murderers/murderous regimes throughout history were either atheist or agnostic. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 2 hours ago, Kasanova King said: Most mass shooters/serial killers/mass murderers/murderous regimes throughout history were either atheist or agnostic. Even if true, how is that relevant to the discussion at hand? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Iron MikeyJ said: It was irrelevant though, making it a straw man. Pointing out that secular societies can result in high quality of life to people, is not irrelevant to point out when discussing why theism is bad for us. I claimed that we are better off without theism, and argued that we'd get rid of all its drawbacks while most of its benefits could be transferred to other organisations/institutions, and the one thing you protest against is the fact that you think I shouldn't have pointed out that secular societies can be really great because you find it irrelevant? Edited February 22, 2018 by SoulMonster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron MikeyJ Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 2 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: Pointing out that secular societies can result in high quality of life to people, is not irrelevant to point out when discussing why theism is bad for us. I claimed that we are better off without theism, and argued that we'd get rid of all its drawbacks while most of its benefits could be transferred to other organisations/institutions, and the one thing you protest against is the fact that you think I shouldn't have pointed out that secular societies can be really great because you find it irrelevant? No, you are deflecting. It wasn't relevant to the debate we were having. I was responding to your posts directly, pointing out the flaws in your arguments. Which you then tried to change the narrative, THAT was why it was irrelevant to the discussion. I HAVE been engaging you through the rules of debate. It's something QUITE a few Catholics have learned when debating Atheists. Atheists like to hang their hats on science, so I have been engaging you on an intellectual level. Which again, you will find MANY (but not all of course) Catholics are surprising proficient at. That's all I've been doing, which (if I'm honest) appears to have caught you quite off guard, hence your need to deflect, change the narrative, or respond with fallacies. It's ok though SoulMonster. I STILL dont feel you are evil, just confused. I LOVE you and Jesus does too!!! 😗 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron MikeyJ Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 Here is MY favorite Catholic debater against an ATHEIST. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazey Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said: Here is MY favorite Catholic debater against an ATHEIST. Hitchens: “Hold my drink!” Edited February 22, 2018 by Dazey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soon Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 4 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said: You guys have conflated and confused SoulMonster's point. It is absolutely true that a common argument/claim of many religious folks is "Without religion, there is no point to anything. We would descend into chaos." I'm sorry, but that is factually an argument that comes up. The point he's making is simply that that is wrong, that religion is not necessary at all for things like morals, order and happiness. If you guys don't share that particular common theist line of thinking then that is good indeed and you can point that out but that does not counter or debunk his point. Also, I think it is at best facetious at worst very disingenuous particularly of @Iron MikeyJ to now suddenly claim that he does not believe religion/Catholicism is necessary for society, clearly he does think that, just to bolster his desire to disregard what SoulMonster says. Not in the slightest. We have stated clearly that we're confused why he brought that up out of no where. Its not an argument Ive ever brought up nor witnessed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soon Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 Just now, Oldest Goat said: He brought it up because it's a common argument religious folks make. Maybe you don't, but Mikey and many, many others do. He brought it up as part of a line of thinking that if we're honest simply showcases that he had an off day. That normally he's a clearer thinker and more reasonable debater. I bet he's glad you and dazed finally showed up. One does not start making one point, bring in something thats not really all that related and then say its what we were probably going to say. That has been correctly called a straw man argument. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron MikeyJ Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 @Oldest Goat, Find the post where I said ANYTHING you just claimed I've said. SoulMonster was losing the debate so he tried to change the narrative to a conversation he has had with other theists where perhaps he won. Which perhaps he DID win, but how is that relevant now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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