The Religion/Spirituality Thread

[DieselDaisy]

4 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

Right so you admit that it's all man-made then?

I do not know why you are throwing that question at me? I'm merely relaying you the academic theories of comparative mythology.

[DieselDaisy]

2 minutes ago, Dazey said:

A load of bollocks by any other name ... 

Winter Solstice? It was an astronomical date actually marking the longest night of the year. Many societies ritually celebrated it. 

[SoulMonster]

2 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Winter Solstice? It was an astronomical date actually marking the longest night of the year. Many societies ritually celebrated it. 

Yep, and Jul was connected to it, too. 

[DieselDaisy]

Just now, Oldest Goat said:

Sorry if it sounded aggressive, was more of an underarm throw because everything you said backs up that it's simply a man-made cultural phenomena, which is one of the points I wish to make.

I do not think there is any doubt that many aspects of religion are man-made. Most religions do not hide that fact and even go as far as celebrating it. The temporal nature of Jesus of Nazareth is central to the Christian faith. Siddhartha had to be very corrupt and ''worldly'' before he became the Buddha - as did Paul of Tarsus before his conversion on the road to Damascus. 

[The Real McCoy]

2 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Why is that an unshakeable belief of yours? That your god someone manipulated you into moving to a new place seems like such a trivial thing to not question at all. Do you think everything in your life is directed by your god or is it just this moving that you for some reason believe was orchestrated by your god? What's so special about it? I understand that it is an important thing to YOU, like all major life-changes moving to a new city really changes everything, but why would it be so important to your god that HE decided to interfere?

Without getting in too many personal details about my life, this is the best that I can explain it.

Up until a few years ago, if something didn’t go my way in say, a relationship, for example, I was the first to blame God. Obviously, I’m ashamed of that in more recent years, but I went through a long stretch of having lost my faith at best, or being a heretic at worst.

So, I met my ex, and her faith was and is the most important thing in her life - so, I started going to church again (first times in a non Catholic Church), and I felt that it was something that I could relate to more than Catholicism. 

Anyway, fast forward, a year and a half later, she and I break up (and I had planned on proposing to her), but in the past, where I would have blamed God, I just said “alright, Lord, I don’t get this. I don’t understand this, but I’m not losing my faith again.”

For a month or two, I was clearly out of sorts, coping with the break up, and the mental and emotional fallout that goes with something like that, and after a few months of just feeling miserable, and feeling that things were heading in a negative direction all around for me, I prayed the hardest that I’ve ever prayed in my entire life.

I basically said, “Lord, clearly I have no idea what I’m doing with my life. I can’t do this on my own, so I need to you steer me to your will, and to guide the way, because clearly, I’m lost.” I said the sinners’ prayer, and got back to a new church (that was one of the best decisions that I’ve ever made), and committed to joining a Bible study / life group. It was a more contemporary church with a congregation that was more in my demographic (college, post grad, etc) and I learned a lot, and made some great friends there that I miss dearly.) 

But between reaffirming my faith and felon God to steer me to where he meant for me to be, things turned around for me drastically. I had some personal revelations that I won’t share here prophesied over me, and within months, I landed my new job in a new state, and two weeks later I met the woman that I plan on marrying.

If that’s not God / Christ at work, then I don’t know what is. 

Like I said, I’ve been lagging in joining a church here, and I’m not proud of that, but my faith in Christ is unshakable at this point.

I’m not a perfect Christian, but I believe. I also believe it’s everyone's free choice to believe or not to believe. I can only share my testimony and leave it up to others to decide what’s best for them. 

I just know that my life got a whole lot better when I went all in for Jesus, and that’s good enough for me.

[DieselDaisy]

1 minute ago, Oldest Goat said:

Name one aspect that is God-made? The Bible is supposed to be written by God...proof? All signs point to it being purely man-made and as a historian you know that.

Ehh yes, and nobody has claimed otherwise. The OT is written by the Israelite. The NT is written by ''Matthew, Mark, Luke, John'' and St Paul. 

[SoulMonster]

3 minutes ago, The Real McCoy said:

If that’s not God / Christ at work, then I don’t know what is. 

Yeah, because only god could make someone move to a new city and get a new job

Have you considered that not everything is either god's fault or praise, but that we sometimes make bad or good decisions and that life is something simply shitty? It might make life easier for you.

[The Real McCoy]

2 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Yeah, because only god could make someone move to a new city and get a new job

Have you considered that not everything is either god's fault or praise, but that we sometimes make bad or good decisions and that life is something simply shitty? It might make life easier for you.

Considering the fact that none of the other jobs that I applied for over the years ever came to fruition until I told God to steer me and lead the way, I can’t simply chalk it up to a coincidence.

Like I said, I’m not here to tell you or anyone else how to live your life. I’m just telling you what I believe.

[SoulMonster]

Just now, The Real McCoy said:

Considering the fact that none of the other jobs that I applied for over the years ever came to fruition until I told God to steer me and lead the way, I can’t simply chalk it up to a coincidence.

You know what, that is exactly what a coincidence is. I mean, if anything could be considered coincidental it is exactly that. Two thing happening to happen at the same time, and then one assumes causality when it is just correlation. Maybe it even has a bit of cognitive bias thrown in.

Regardless, I am genuinely happy for you

[The Real McCoy]

2 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

You know what, that is exactly what a coincidence is. I mean, if anything could be considered coincidental it is exactly that. Two thing happening to happen at the same time, and then one assumes causality when it is just correlation. Maybe it even has a bit of cognitive bias thrown in.

Regardless, I am genuinely happy for you

Thanks, man. It’s been a long haul. Many of the long time posters on here have seen me at worst, and while I don’t post nearly as much as I used to (far too busy), I can truly say that I’ve never been happier personally or professionally. 

[DieselDaisy]

13 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

 

So no God-made aspects? Just men who allegedly knew Jesus and what he got up to and wrote about it many years after his death.

Isn't a big part of Christianity that the Bible is supposed to be written by God/his word?

P.S. Just got a 504 gateway error! I regret everything!

The NT is considered a ''sacred'' scripture but it is very much man made and is part of a broader Koine Greek historiographical tradition. The Gospel of Mathew is called that because it was written by a chap called Matthew. The Gospel of Mark is called that because it was written by a chap called Mark. Paul's Epistles are called that because they were... - see what I mean? 

The Torah/Pentateuch is traditionally believed to have been ''written by Moses'' but many scholars now believe in a dual authorship. 

[DieselDaisy]

Just now, Oldest Goat said:

So how can something, like a book, be sacred if it is merely man-made? Isn't that blasphemy and the height of all arrogance?

The deeds it recounts, that and being the fountain of Judaeo-Christian theology and guidance. 

[DieselDaisy]

I wouldn't care to dictate to anyone how a book should be interpreted.

It is a straw man argument, arguing against human agency to a Christian. Christianity is inherently built upon a human edifices, various texts, statutes and institutions - not just The Bible but the Nicene Creed of 325 AD et al. Broadly they are all historical documents which seek to bring forth the circumstances of Christ's birth, ministry, crucifixion and resurrection. St Paul's writings concern the earliest Christian communities. 

You have to remember that, before the Reformation the majority did not even have access to a Bible. In Western Christendom Christianity revolved around the sacraments, not the Bible. There was no Bible present to even read let alone worship!

[Dazey]

31 minutes ago, The Real McCoy said:

Considering the fact that none of the other jobs that I applied for over the years ever came to fruition until I told God to steer me and lead the way, I can’t simply chalk it up to a coincidence.

Like I said, I’m not here to tell you or anyone else how to live your life. I’m just telling you what I believe.

I agree with SM about the god/coincidence part of this but it is really good to see you doing well after all the false starts you've had over the years.

[The Real McCoy]

1 hour ago, Dazey said:

I agree with SM about the god/coincidence part of this but it is really good to see you doing well after all the false starts you've had over the years.

#FeelsGoodMan

[DieselDaisy]

5 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

It's not that I care how people interpret a book. That's their business ultimately, beyond getting other people's insights/opinions I couldn't care less. It's the injustice and repercussions that are perpetuated by their interpretations of this fictional book that I find so wrong and unacceptable.

It's one of the things I find so maddening about this world. The legitimization of irrationality and desperation.

Yet I never see you get so irate about Das Kapital!

[DieselDaisy]

1 minute ago, Oldest Goat said:

Anything wrong about communism is forever shit on.

Anything wrong about Christianity is forever tolerated or even praised.

Not on mygnr haha.

You think so? Christians have to put up a tremendous amount of illiberal, ignorant and thoroughly disgusting abuse from people like you, Dazey and Soul - especially since that Dawkins book which seems to have instigated a new brand of virulent atheism. 

[Ace Nova]

3 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

Yeah, because only god could make someone move to a new city and get a new job

Have you considered that not everything is either god's fault or praise, but that we sometimes make bad or good decisions and that life is something simply shitty? It might make life easier for you.

That's a pretty shitty comment...even coming from you.  At the very least, you should be respectful when people pour out their stories and emotions.  

[DieselDaisy]

9 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

I'm not atheist. What have I said that's disgusting/ignorant?

I was speaking more generally but ''ignorant'': a few hours ago you thought god had gotten his bic biro out and penned the gospels.

[DieselDaisy]

I was speaking more generally.

If a christian - as you guys never seem to attack other religions for some odd reason - came here, I doubt he would find it very friendly, what between Dazey's ''it is all bollocks'' and Soul's mammoth demonstrations of supremacy and self-righteousness. If I was a Christian I'd clear off and join Poison's forum to be honest. 

[dontdamnmeuyi2015]

I was raised Roman Catholic. Went to Catholic school for 7 years. It sucked. I had nuns that were total bitches.

The Catholic doesn't want you to think for yourself or question anything about the Bible or anything else. They just want you to believe. I never could do that.

There's tons of guilt that goes along with being Catholic too, so I haven't been to church since my grandfather died. Too many rules.

the only reason my grandmother agreed to a Church service because when she asked the Priest to say something at the wake, he refused until she agreed to have the church funeral, which cost tons of money. It's all about money. it makes me sick.

I loved hearing stories about Jesus because no matter how flawed he was, he always tried to see the good in people and never judged. The Catholic Church is all about judging you. It makes me sick.

Also how many wars were started or fought because of religion? If people would just treat each other the way you want to be treated and let people believe in whatever God they want to, the world wouldn't be such a fucked up place.

Read the book, The Passover Plot. You will see Jesus in a whole new way. Excellent book because if makes you think.

My brother is a yoga instructor and I tell you their believes make so much sense. This I can get behind.

Edited January 12, 2018 by dontdamnmeuyi2015
more

[soon]

As a Christian I am sincerely thrilled to read many people making clear that their dislike for Christianity is based on their fundamental misunderstanding of Christianity.  

So you can let go of all that baggage.  And who knows what happens after you treat the subject with honesty and clearly-warranted humility?

Edited January 12, 2018 by soon

[Blackstar]

Apart from the similar mythological patterns that were developed independently from each other in different parts of the world, it was very common for religions to take elements from other religions and make them their own, to identify other divinities with their own, merge different deities to one etc. (there was no copyright  ). Especially in the Hellenistic and Roman world, which was a melting pot of religions and philosophical schools.  Deities from the East were hellenised/romanised and there was mobility between religions.

Most pagan religions had mid-winter and spring festivals, so, when, for example, an emperor launched a new cult, the new holiday replaced the old one absorbing elements of it. In a similar manner, christianity made its own mid-winter holiday incorporating traditions of Saturnalia and other festivals. Easter was a combination of the Jewish Passover and pagan spring festivals for the rebirth of nature (the concept of resurrection fits in there).

On 11/1/2018 at 5:59 PM, soon said:

Its always fascinated me that as Marx spoke against his (flawed) concept of the Church, he was also utilizing aspects of Hegels work that were directly informed by Hegels Christianity.  Perhaps with out being equipped to see Christianity in them?  I can recall Marx addressing and critiquing Hegels faith, so Im not saying he wasnt aware in general.  But I do believe that a lot of the Christian 'back drop' made it through into Marx's writing as well as the later works of other communist theorists.  Some through secularization; like The Ideal Man, perhaps?  But others just sit there; "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" being exactly how the Early Christians lived.  This is perhaps why so many Christians have identified as Communist and sought to join parties?  Like Pete Seeger, Woody Guthrie or many of the ELZN/Zapatista's

 The context of Marx's critique on religion was its role in his era, more specifically in the mid-19th century Germany which was in the process of industrialization and the church was part of the still ruling old regime; and ideologically, the heritage of the Enlightenment and the belief in the progress of humanity with reason as the driving force and with religion being a remnant of the old age that kept humantity bound in ignorance and superstition. Marx rejected that kind of -"bourgeois", as marxists call it- criticism though as he focused on material conditions as the cause and (in the famous quote that ends with "religion is the opium of the people" ) he acknowledged that relgion was also a protest (of the low, deprived and alienated class) against suffering. He didn't write about early Christianity as far as I know, but he referred to the Peasant War as the most radical fact in German history.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1843/critique-hpr/intro.htm

Engels wrote about early christianity and distinguished it from the state religion it developed into (like Hegel had, but Engels' perspective was of course materialistic). He paralleled the early church to the socialist movement of his time, with the difference being that christianity sought salvation in the afterlife.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1894/early-christianity/index.htm

(I post the links in case anyone else is interested)

The intention was seemingly to point out that socialism wasn't unprecedented in history.Engels' analysis had some factual inaccuracies though: he said that the members of the early church were from the working classes of the era, the poor and the slaves, whereas in fact they were from all classes, with a big portion being rather middle class.

Edited January 13, 2018 by Blackstar

[SoulMonster]

9 hours ago, soon said:

As a Christian I am sincerely thrilled to read many people making clear that their dislike for Christianity is based on their fundamental misunderstanding of Christianity.  

My primary dislike is due to it being based on a belief in a supernatural creature. Secondary, all the shitty things it has led to.

[soon]

15 hours ago, Blackstar said:

 

 The context of Marx's critique on religion was its role in his era, more specifically in the mid-19th century Germany which was in the process of industrialization and the church was part of the still ruling old regime; and ideologically, the heritage of the Enlightenment and the belief in the progress of humanity with reason as the driving force and with religion being a remnant of the old age that kept humantity bound in ignorance and superstition. Marx rejected that kind of -"bourgeois", as marxists call it- criticism though as he focused on material conditions as the cause and (in the famous quote that ends with "religion is the opium of the people" ) he acknowledged that relgion was also a protest (of the low, deprived and alienated class) against suffering. He didn't write about early Christianity as far as I know, but he referred to the Peasant War as the most radical fact in German history.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1843/critique-hpr/intro.htm

Engels wrote about early christianity and distinguished it from the state religion it developed into (like Hegel had, but Engels' perspective was of course materialistic). He paralleled the early church to the socialist movement of his time, with the difference being that christianity sought salvation in the afterlife.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1894/early-christianity/index.htm

(I post the links in case anyone else is interested)

The intention was seemingly to point out that socialism wasn't unprecedented in history.Engels' analysis had some factual inaccuracies though: he said that the members of the early church were from the working classes of the era, the poor and the slaves, whereas in fact they were from all classes, with a big portion being rather middle class.

Thanks for this.  I appreciate the links too as Ive studied a lot of these works, but dont sit with them the way a Communist would.  Ill have to look into what Im remembering about Marx critiquing Hegel for his faith.  Our non-sectarian potluck is at my place this month so Ill see if I can ask for input with out the MLP's arguing with the CPC's, lol.

Engels The Origin of the Family, Private Property, and the State is on my book shelf and there too I see a parallel with Genesis chapters 3-11.  An used it in Bible study for this.

The earliest Christians were occupied people with an internal class structure that left most impoverished.  Their earliest members with wealth gave it up as a indivisible aspect of their salvation. Most of that wealth was the traitors who worked for the Empire. And then with the Hellenistic influences arriving through a growing movement the issue of Class really came to the fore.  The famous St Stephen was one elected to address the class issues with the redistribution's of wealth.  The resources were relinquished and shared, but the entitlement of previous class identify remained.  Shortly after, many wealthy Greek women are noted in scripture as providing infrastructure and resources for travels.  And also reading the letters and Gospel and teaching to read and write.   

How would you transpose Marx's statement that was about the mid-19th century German Church to be applicable to todays Church?

Edited January 13, 2018 by soon