soon Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, DieselDaisy said: North America was initially colonised by a mixture of crown appointed private adventurers and religious exiles, and often, at least in the early stages, the colonists were weaker than the natives. Yes, they were kept alive by the generosity of the Native peoples. All the while those duplicitous drones plotted to steal the land. Then when they had the numbers they began genocide and colonization against those who welcomed and cared for them. Edited January 11, 2018 by soon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 30 minutes ago, soon said: Yes, they were kept alive by the generosity of the Native peoples. All the while those duplicitous drones plotted to steal the land. Then when they had the numbers they began genocide and colonization against those who welcomed and cared for them. I believe that is a rather simplified and skewed version of American history. It is a lot more complicated than that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soon Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 Just now, DieselDaisy said: I believe that is a rather simplified and skewed version of American history. It is a lot more complicated than that. They weren't colonizing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 Just now, soon said: They weren't colonizing? They were settlement colonies, yes, but the rest of your post is an incredibly simplified interpretation of historic fact. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soon Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 3 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said: They were settlement colonies, yes, but the rest of your post is an incredibly simplified interpretation of historic fact. do tell... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 6 minutes ago, soon said: do tell... Who are 'they'? You mention a 'they' in your post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soon Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 1 minute ago, DieselDaisy said: Who are 'they'? You mention a 'they' in your post. Mainly English and French. Who were the colonizers of NA that you were talking about? Oh, I guess I should say vikings too, given the thread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 (edited) 8 minutes ago, soon said: Mainly English and French. Who were the colonizers of NA that you were talking about? Oh, I guess I should say vikings too, given the thread It certainly cannot be England as a centrifugal state as England remained politically and military distant until, at the earliest the 1750s. It cannot be the colonists themselves as there was no geo-political unity between settlements - heck, there was barely any unity after the American War of Independence! Most of these settlements had completely different vested interests. Some (MA Bay Colony) were settled upon religious grounds as a sort of 'New Jerusalem', in rebuttal to England's somewhat 'wet' (Catholic) reformation; Maryland was actually the reverse of that, a Catholic settlement. Some were mercantile companies which were granted Royal Charters and settled to manufacture tobacco for the old world. Some were rather pie in the sky ventures, seeking gold. And that is without proceeding into the complexity of Native-American nations. The nations settlers came in contact with in the 17th century were completely different to the nations Americans came in contact with from c. 1840s onward, different culturally, linguistically, socio-economically. There is simply so much wrong with your over-simplified view that I do not know where to start. Edited January 12, 2018 by DieselDaisy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graeme Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 6 hours ago, Kasanova King said: So you believe a group of genocidal barbarians are awesome? Yet you're very critical of Colonists? I guess when speaking of your own ancestors, they're awesome. When speaking of other people's ancestors, they're genocidal, evil people. Sort of racist, don't you think? Mainly because in the Nordic nations they don't have a big party every year where they commemorate raiding and pillaging the coasts of Northern Europe, a festival that focuses on the benefits the loot brought to their society and glosses over the suffering that was caused. Also, it happened a much longer time ago such that the effects are far more diffuse, no-one can really point to a modern day governance system and trace endemic social inequality back to a viking raid. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibson87 Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 I saw the title and thought this thread was about the Minnesota Vikings. I was ready to come in and start some shit 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted January 12, 2018 Author Share Posted January 12, 2018 12 hours ago, soon said: I wasnt sure if there were class implications for who warriors were back in those times maybe? In terms of getting to Valhalla, I believe any fighting free man could get there if they should enough fighting prowess and died in battle. There were very few professional warriors back in the early Viking era (750-850), later on (850-1100) a professional class of warriors had been formed due to extensive warfare, especially round kings and other royal persons who needed an army and retinue. In the latter period the viking raids had also grown in size and intent (with a constant presence in parts of the British Isles and elsewhere), and allowed full-time warriors to exist. But most people were still farmers and fishermen, yet all had weapon's training to defend their farmstead and to fight in wars against other kingsdoms and to go on foreign raids ("to go viking") when needed, and could potentially reach Valhalla if they did well. 12 hours ago, Jakey Styley said: I recently read that the Vikings had very progressive ideas on gender equality (relative to the times). It wasn't exactly equality of the sexes, there were strict gender roles, but it seems like both women and men were cherished for their parts. As christendom came, in some ways it meant women lost some freedom and status. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted January 12, 2018 Author Share Posted January 12, 2018 11 hours ago, Kasanova King said: So you believe a group of genocidal barbarians are awesome? Yet you're very critical of Colonists? I don't consider the Norse to have been more barbarious then any other people of that time. They are painted to be more vile in christian sources, like Ancuin's letters, but that's propaganda. So within the context of living in a highly cruel period of time where lives didn't matter much, they stood out as really awesome. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted January 12, 2018 Author Share Posted January 12, 2018 11 hours ago, dontdamnmeuyi2015 said: Exactly. That's what every race of people did when they discovered America. They raped and destroyed villages and people and children too. The sources doesn't suggest any attempts at this when the Norse established their first colonies in America. There were squabbles with the locals, sure, and hostages taken, probably some rape, too, and some got killed, on both sides, but it seems like the intent of the colony was trade rather than conquest. Eventually the Norse gave up, probably likely they got driven off by the locals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lio Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 5 hours ago, Graeme said: Mainly because in the Nordic nations they don't have a big party every year where they commemorate raiding and pillaging the coasts of Northern Europe, a festival that focuses on the benefits the loot brought to their society and glosses over the suffering that was caused. Also, it happened a much longer time ago such that the effects are far more diffuse, no-one can really point to a modern day governance system and trace endemic social inequality back to a viking raid. While this is true, it doesn't take away from what KK says. No matter how long ago, Vikings were cruel warriors who looted and raped. Imagine if I was to make a thread titled 'Leopold II is awesome!' I guess I'll have to wait at least a few centuries. TBH I don't mind the Vikings and find them interesting, but KK has a point, I think. Furthermore, I think you should substantiate your claim more, @SoulMonster. What makes them so awesome? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted January 12, 2018 Author Share Posted January 12, 2018 26 minutes ago, Lio said: Furthermore, I think you should substantiate your claim more, @SoulMonster. What makes them so awesome? We really don't know that much about the Norse people in the early Viking Age, except for a few runic texts, they left little original written material. But if we are to take later sources, Snorre's for instance, and other sagas, as valid, they paint a picture of a very lively and simple (in a good sense) people. They didn't over-complicate their lives, they took pleasure where it was to be found and accepted their fate with stoicism. They also had a highly entertaining mythology where humor was important. As alluded to elsewhere, compared to many other societies at the time, Norse society was not female-unfriendly. Males and females had different roles in society, but both men and women could become powerful and respected within their genders. For instance could only women become priests (vølva), and many historians also believe that women could become warriors. I also like the styles of art that was developed by the Norse, especially the borre and urnes styles of art, with intricate. deep-set reliefs of beasts fighting. Google pictures of Urnes Stavkirke for more examples of still-existing Viking art. The written sources also suggests a straightforward style of poetry with a strong focus on alliterative verses and kennings. Something I appreciate. The "saga style" is recognized for an almost clipped way of verse, where short rhyming sentences are important, against suggest a no-nonsense people who quickly got to the point. They didn't really dwell on things. Main topics to them were heroic stories and adventure. Not much sentimental stories, it was all about action and drama. Love was important, like everywhere, but usually more hinted to rather than being the main topics. As far as technology goes, their main achievement was the ocean-going longships. Beautiful designs. Of course this allowed them to perform surprise attacks on previously isolated and safe places (like the coast of the British Isles) which has resulted in people only thinking of Vikings as nothing but barbarians. But there is no reason to think they were more bloodthirsty compared to their contemporaries, their ocean-going technology and fighting prowess simply meant they were very good at it. It also allowed them to travel anywhere and become a main tradesmen in Europe and beyond at the time. The Norse also had a strong interest in exploration, not only to colonize but also apparently because they were a curious and brave people. This meant they discovered and settled in new lands in very harsh regions (Iceland, Greenland and what is today Canada). In short, their society seems to be more fair than many other at the time, and suggests just the type of people I'd want to be around: fun-loving, lively, curious and plain awesome. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted January 12, 2018 Author Share Posted January 12, 2018 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 3 hours ago, SoulMonster said: I don't consider the Norse to have been more barbarious then any other people of that time. They are painted to be more vile in christian sources, like Ancuin's letters, but that's propaganda. So within the context of living in a highly cruel period of time where lives didn't matter much, they stood out as really awesome. There are a few ruined buildings on my coastline which say otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 The weirdest thing about Scandinavian people in general is how you went from this, to this, What happened? You went from the most macho hairy-arsed warrior society ever to the campest? The Japanese when they gave up the Samurai malarky didn't suddenly don sequins!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted January 12, 2018 Author Share Posted January 12, 2018 44 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said: There are a few ruined buildings on my coastline which say otherwise. Any people would have done the same given longships. 32 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said: The weirdest thing about Scandinavian people in general is how you went from this, to this, What happened? You went from the most macho hairy-arsed warrior society ever to the campest? The Japanese when they gave up the Samurai malarky didn't suddenly don sequins!! The first picture shows Norse vikings, the later today's Swedes. Don't compare Norwegians to Swedes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazey Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 1 minute ago, SoulMonster said: Any people would have done the same given longships. #targetpractice #pillage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 5 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: Any people would have done the same given longships. The first picture shows Norse vikings, the later today's Swedes. Don't compare Norwegians to Swedes. You're all Viking stock, aren't you, and a bit (dare I say) 'Eurovision'. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted January 12, 2018 Author Share Posted January 12, 2018 5 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said: You're all Viking stock, aren't you, and a bit (dare I say) 'Eurovision'. I suppose you could argue that Swedes were vikings, too, right, and most historians do, but I don't. They were weak and puny. Not the guys exploring the arctic seas westward nor fought in the British Isles, etc. (They did some raids and exploring in the East, though) . It really is a shame to mix them in with the Northmen (Norse) and the Danes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 8 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: I suppose you could argue that Swedes were vikings, too, right, and most historians do, but I don't. They were weak and puny. Not the guys exploring the arctic seas westward nor fought in the British Isles, etc. (They did some raids and exploring in the East, though) . It really is a shame to mix them in with the Northmen (Norse) and the Danes. You undervalue them. They conquered the Slavs, eastward founding proto-Russian states Novgorod and Kievan Rus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted January 12, 2018 Author Share Posted January 12, 2018 Just now, DieselDaisy said: You undervalue them. They conquered the Slavs, eastward founding proto-Russian states Novgorod and Kievan Rus. I guess they could be considered Viking-wannabees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazey Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 As an aside, has anybody else noticed that Norway/Sweden/Denmark etc looks like a massive cock and balls? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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