Why is Chinese Democracy so hated?

[TheGeneral]

Okay, so there have probably been a million threads about this but I'm sorry I just don't get it.

I am 18, so a younger fan of GNR. I started listening around 2014/15. I wasn't around for the pre-CD Era so I don't get that connection-feeling for the AFD5 which I think is actually a good thing since I can be neutral on many topics.

I got to be neutral on AFD, Lies, UYI, Spaghetti Incident and also Chinese Democracy. I enjoyed them all, but CD always stood out to me. I had to get used to it, to the sound of the songs and Axls voice but thats what I love about it: It's something completely different. I like the many 'layers' it has. I like everything about it. I even like the songs that I would consider 'bad'. 

After reading on the forums the only reason many people hate it is because it was released under the name "Guns N Roses"...but who cares about that? Yeah, it was Axl alone. But I bet if Slash stayed in the band and the album would have consisted of Axl, Slash & NuGNR nobody would have complained. It doesn't really matter to me anyway since to me GNR is Axls voice, to others it may be Slashs riffs. And thats okay with me. To each their own.

I also think CD gave us one of the best GNR songs ever: Better.

I'm not trying to attack anyone here on their beliefs on who or what GNR is, just please explain to a young GNR fan that is new to this forum why there are so many haters because I think it is a great album.

[gnfnrs1972]

Its a big world out there. And lots of assholes in it.

[DieselDaisy]

I wouldn't say I hate it but I certainly don't consider it a particularly good album irrespective of the personnel.

[kever20]

I think musical tastes are so subjective, especially given the nostalgia factor of a band from the 80s. 

Due to the nostalgia factor, I think many fans could not accept a different vision or version of GNR than they experienced from 85 to 93- it wasn't the same as the remembered so fondly, so they didn't want to give it a chance. 

Some fans, like myself, used to login daily for rumors, crappy quality audio leaks, and other news due to the dry spell up until November 2008. The rumors of the grandiosity of Chinese Democracy never made sense to me, as AFD was so dirty and UYI was a huge progression where styles were concerned, so how could an album either recapture the original spirit or outshine it? Still, I felt compelled to see just what they were working on, starting with buying a CD bootleg of RIR 3, just for the "new songs," until I eventually got cable internet and would spend some afternoons downloading shows from 2002, and later IRS and Catcher demos, and then all of the other legitimate leaks through 2013. The remix album tracks were fine, perhaps unnecessary, but songs lile Going Down could've been great on a future album, much like YOU had tracks contributed by Duff and Izzy. We just wanted proof that there was SOMETHING being worked on. I never did believe that 3 or 4 albums were ready to go, but I was indeed curious.

I still think Chinese is a decent album which could have benefited from better production and a slightly different tracklisting- an alternate mix of Better was awesome, and I feel like over the years there were different takes of The Blues and some others. There was no way it could live up to the fan hype  (media hype seemed to die down significantly by 2005, only to reignite in 2006 a bit), but I definitely bought mine Day 1. Some of the ballads would've fit on UYI easily, but surprises like SR and ITW were different enough that is be interested in hearing an album dedicated to each style (however, in SR case, numetal was on its way out long before it was recorded in 2004).

I think each album means something different to everyone, depending on where they were in their lives. I don't check the forums or entertainment sites that often anymore, but I'm interested in hearing any new releases this band, in any incarnation,  releases. 

[Draguns]

As an old time GNR fan, I can see why people didn't like it. First off is the obvious: no Slash nor any of the original GNR was on that album. It 's tough to change a band musically when a whole generation grew up on the original. It was never going to succeed because people have an image of the band. Axl wasn't going to be able to replace that image with guys who looked like they didn't belong. You had a weirdo dressed up in a Michael Meyers mask with a KFC bucket on his head that uses a puppet to talk.   You had another clown dressed up in an alien outfit with half of his head shaved off.  When I saw this during the MTV Awards, I was thinking WTF even though I was excited that Axl was back. The image just didn't suit  GNR. With GNR, you expected cool badasses. Not industrial freaks.

Second part is the music itself. While there are some good songs, none were great.  There some songs that were actually very poor like Scraped and Rhiad. The songs didn't have that memorable hook musically. There weren't  many songs that had memorable riffs like previous GNR material. I was excited and gave it a favorable review when it came out due to Axl coming back. Now, I wouldn't. It's an average album.

Lastly, the time that it took to get the album out. It just took too long even though there were challenges that needed to be overcome. I think if Axl had released as a solo album in 99 or 2000, it would have been viewed more favorably.  

 

Edited January 27, 2018 by Draguns
typo

[ChristmasFnatic]

Does not sound like classic GN'R. And though it is normal for bands to adjust their tune to fit the times(Aerosmith for example), the only original member there is Axl. Hard to support that.

[ZoSoRose]

44 minutes ago, TheGeneral said:

Okay, so there have probably been a million threads about this but I'm sorry I just don't get it.

I am 18, so a younger fan of GNR. I started listening around 2014/15. I wasn't around for the pre-CD Era so I don't get that connection-feeling for the AFD5 which I think is actually a good thing since I can be neutral on many topics.

I got to be neutral on AFD, Lies, UYI, Spaghetti Incident and also Chinese Democracy. I enjoyed them all, but CD always stood out to me. I had to get used to it, to the sound of the songs and Axls voice but thats what I love about it: It's something completely different. I like the many 'layers' it has. I like everything about it. I even like the songs that I would consider 'bad'. 

After reading on the forums the only reason many people hate it is because it was released under the name "Guns N Roses"...but who cares about that? Yeah, it was Axl alone. But I bet if Slash stayed in the band and the album would have consisted of Axl, Slash & NuGNR nobody would have complained. It doesn't really matter to me anyway since to me GNR is Axls voice, to others it may be Slashs riffs. And thats okay with me. To each their own.

I also think CD gave us one of the best GNR songs ever: Better.

I'm not trying to attack anyone here on their beliefs on who or what GNR is, just please explain to a young GNR fan that is new to this forum why there are so many haters because I think it is a great album.

1. Took forever to come out

2. Was extremely expensive

3. Is from a completely different set of people than what GNR was

4. Sounds nothing alike classic GNR

5. People view it as a vanity project that usurped the originals continuing 

Personally, I am a huge fan of the record. I was a teenager like you when I discovered the band, and reading about Chinese intrigued me. It wasn't quite out yet at the time, so I was excited when it was released. That being said, I completely understand why a lot of fans do not like the record. To each their own, and this one is obviously a very controversial release. 

I absolutely think keeping the GNR name hurt Axl immensely. I don't care too much, but it really seems to have hurt his reputation in the grand scheme of things. It has been nice to see him turn his public persona around with AC/DC and the reunion

[Order of Nine]

One of the main reasons it's hated is cause Slash and Duff were not a part of it.

Many people can't even look past the disappointment that thier favorite players didn't contribute to it in any way shape or form and will hate on it forever.

Imho it proves who is the heavy hitter in the song writing department when you compare the old alumni releases to it, no comparison, Chinese has a few great songs that will stand the test of time.

I found out about Bucket like most people did when he joined Guns back in 2000. He is criminally under rated and I'm glad that he got some well deserved recognition and clout from the exposure he had in Guns. Bucket is a one man show all on his own, a true musician, not some one trick pony like alot of old school icons are. Bucket definitely raised the bar on a number of levels.

Considering all the things stacked up against it's release and the obvious decline within the music industry and purchase of music I think Chinese did well. 

[DieselDaisy]

It is unbelievably arrogant to believe people cannot dislike this record for any reason other than, ''Slash not being present''. 

Edited January 27, 2018 by DieselDaisy
Clarity.

[bucketfoot]

1 minute ago, ZoSoRose said:

1. Took forever to come out

2. Was extremely expensive

3. Is from a completely different set of people than what GNR was

4. Sounds nothing alike classic GNR

5. People view it as a vanity project that usurped the originals continuing 

Personally, I am a huge fan of the record. I was a teenager like you when I discovered the band, and reading about Chinese intrigued me. It wasn't quite out yet at the time, so I was excited when it was released. That being said, I completely understand why a lot of fans do not like the record. To each their own, and this one is obviously a very controversial release. 

I absolutely think keeping the GNR name hurt Axl immensely. I don't care too much, but it really seems to have hurt his reputation in the grand scheme of things. It has been nice to see him turn his public persona around with AC/DC and the reunion

Nailed it with those 5 points. It was never going to satisfy a lot of people due to the length of time it took to come out, it became this mythical thing which almost had to be the best album ever recorded, good luck with that. A lot of people, I would imagine, were always going to be against it because of your third and fourth points as well.

I love it, personally.

32 minutes ago, Draguns said:

You had a weirdo dressed up in a Michael Meyers mask with a KFC bucket on his head that uses a puppet to talk.   You had another clown dressed up in an alien outfit with half of his head shaved off.

[triad]

24 minutes ago, Draguns said:

Second part is the music itself. While there are some good songs, none were great.  There some songs that were actually very poor like Scraped and Rhiad. The songs didn't have that memorable hook musically. There weren't  many songs that had memorable riffs like previous GNR material. I was excited and gave it a favorable review when it came out due to Axl coming back. Now, I wouldn't. It's an average album.
 

For me, it's the bolded above.  I bought CD on the first day, and have listened to it intermittently over the last 10 years.  It's interesting, I don't hate it, but the melodies just aren't catchy or memorable, which is what I love about AFD, UYI, and even some of Lies.  The CD tunes are rather ponderous.  The personnel aren't that important to me.  I'm a Bucket fan, actually.  The TWAT solos are amazing and I adore the outro to Prostitute, but CD will never be one of my favorite albums. 

[Silent Jay]

It's really not. And it shouldn't.

Interestingly enough, Guns N' Roses went to play eight 'Chinese Democracy' tracks at the last US show in L.A. That's more 'CD' songs in a single show than any other since early 2010.

Slash knows Prostitute, Sorry and Catcher in the Rye. Even if his guitar solos are a bit rough, I bet he enjoys playing these songs live. 

At this point, the band should keep the pace and try to perform If The World, Street Of Dreams and Oh My God next summer.

Some fans should just embrace the album.

[Gackt]

Rockists simply don't understand the album, and therefore can't appreciate it.

[Order of Nine]

13 minutes ago, Gackt said:

Rockists simply don't understand the album, and therefore can't appreciate it.

Agreed and I think it's ahead of it's time even after being released so late. 

[-W.A.R-]

-It took 15 years to come out. No album will live up to the hype with that long of a wait.

-Its overproduced and sounds too computerized. Songs don't sound organic they sound very cut & paste.

Edited January 28, 2018 by -W.A.R-

[Draguns]

48 minutes ago, Order of Nine said:

One of the main reasons it's hated is cause Slash and Duff were not a part of it.

Many people can't even look past the disappointment that thier favorite players didn't contribute to it in any way shape or form and will hate on it forever.

Imho it proves who is the heavy hitter in the song writing department when you compare the old alumni releases to it, no comparison, Chinese has a few great songs that will stand the test of time.

I found out about Bucket like most people did when he joined Guns back in 2000. He is criminally under rated and I'm glad that he got some well deserved recognition and clout from the exposure he had in Guns. Bucket is a one man show all on his own, a true musician, not some one trick pony like alot of old school icons are. Bucket definitely raised the bar on a number of levels.

Considering all the things stacked up against it's release and the obvious decline within the music industry and purchase of music I think Chinese did well. 

It's not just because the original Gunners were not there. That's one of many reasons why old school GNR fans didn't like it.

There's a lot of good songs, but not great songs. The song writing was better on AFD, GNR Lies and UYI I and II.  Lyrics wise Axl did some good things on CD. However, musically and production wise, it wasn't as good. This brings up my next point.

Buckethead. There's a reason why the guy has 70 albums and not one great song from them. There was a reason why Bumblefoot was never heard of before CD.  There's a reason why you also have never heard of Robin Fink before GNR and after either. 

[Its Tino]

People who complain are just louder than people who praise. 

[DR DOOM]

I actually quite like most all of the songs, but not as they appear on the album- I refer to the 2000/01 live versions and leaks.

So while I technically like most of the songs I despise the album because they are all fucked with and don't sound half as good- title track, IRS and Riad in particular.

It's also a very melancholic album, it's mostly all about Axl feeling sorry for himself.

[bucketfoot]

6 minutes ago, DR DOOM said:

it's mostly all about Axl feeling sorry for himself.

This.

[Order of Nine]

31 minutes ago, Draguns said:

It's not just because the original Gunners were not there. That's one of many reasons why old school GNR fans didn't like it.

There's a lot of good songs, but not great songs. The song writing was better on AFD, GNR Lies and UYI I and II.  Lyrics wise Axl did some good things on CD. However, musically and production wise, it wasn't as good. This brings up my next point.

Buckethead. There's a reason why the guy has 70 albums and not one great song from them. There was a reason why Bumblefoot was never heard of before CD.  There's a reason why you also have never heard of Robin Fink before GNR and after either. 

If slash and Duff were a part of that CD it would have gotten the marketing and attention that it didn't get without them in it, it turn many people would have given it the time of day and actually listen to it instead of instantly dismissing it. Half of any releases attention revolves around the marketing and promotion. The stigma of Chinese not having at least Slash or Duff was a huge mental block for the casual fan and an instant dismissal for any regular rock fan. 

The good song great song factor is of course subjective but the fact that the Chinese songs are received relatively well on the new tour emphasises my point that the casuals just want to see Axl and Slash on the same stage. I agree to a certain point about the production, I think the guitar tracks in genneral have to much of a compressed sound. On the other hand I like how elaborate the tracks and parts are compared to the older material. To me when I listen to older material it just sounds to empty and basic, that goes for other bands as well. To me it's more of a prog/rock approach with the instrumentation the arrangements that are unorthodox and more complex, and the fact that it mixes a wide variety of styles. I think it's to advanced for the average guns fan. 

Buckethead and company being relatively unknown and not having huge commercial releases that are under a rock format is a really immature reason to imply these people are a joke. I would argue that they didn't really attempt or care to write a "hit" and that's really not what being a musician is about anyway. The music that they released in other projects before Guns happens to be influential to many of thier counterparts, NIN, Primus, The Replacements if you like them or not are all pioneer's in thier own ways.

[Sosso]

1 hour ago, ChristmasFnatic said:

Does not sound like classic GN'R. And though it is normal for bands to adjust their tune to fit the times(Aerosmith for example), the only original member there is Axl. Hard to support that.

Most of UYI doesn't sounded like classic GN'R either. 

Chinese Democracy is my favourite GN'R album. That album intoduced me to wonderful musicians like Buckethead, Robin Finck, Tommy Stinson, Bryan Mantia, Chris Pitman and others 

[IncitingChaos]

People equate money to quality and CD missed the mark

People felt it wasn’t “Guns N Roses” they released it as it though

It took too long and the mystery behind the album became cooler and more interesting than the band itself so when it released it was disappointing that there wasn’t something magical hiding in the mystique 

No Slash

No hit single 

over produced (too many layers) lacked the raw sound many hoped for or didn’t know they loved about the band.

Axl’s vocals were...different

Too many guitars. 

It still had mistakes despite the years it took were meant to perfect it. 

No promption after. 

 

 

[WhenYou'reTalkinToYourself]

I don't hate CD, in fact I like a few songs or parts of them, but:

• I don't like and cannot get used to the voice Axl used in most songs, no matter how many times I give it a try. That's the biggest problem for me with CD.
• Secondly, I don't really like his songwriting on many of those songs. He has raised the standards much higher with the lyrics in songs like Locomotive, Estranged etc..
• Also, I don't like the whole industrial thing

 

Slash's absence doesn't bother me that much since it was a given for that record...

 

[Draguns]

12 minutes ago, Order of Nine said:

If slash and Duff were a part of that CD it would have gotten the marketing and attention that it didn't get without them in it, it turn many people would have given it the time of day and actually listen to it instead of instantly dismissing it. Half of any releases attention revolves around the marketing and promotion. The stigma of Chinese not having at least Slash or Duff was a huge mental block for the casual fan and an instant dismissal for any regular rock fan. 

The good song great song factor is of course subjective but the fact that the Chinese songs are received relatively well on the new tour emphasises my point that the casuals just want to see Axl and Slash on the same stage. I agree to a certain point about the production, I think the guitar tracks in genneral have to much of a compressed sound. On the other hand I like how elaborate the tracks and parts are compared to the older material. To me when I listen to older material it just sounds to empty and basic, that goes for other bands as well. To me it's more of a prog/rock approach with the instrumentation the arrangements that are unorthodox and more complex, and the fact that it mixes a wide variety of styles. I think it's to advanced for the average guns fan. 

Buckethead and company being relatively unknown and not having huge commercial releases that are under a rock format is a really immature reason to imply these people are a joke. I would argue that they didn't really attempt or care to write a "hit" and that's really not what being a musician is about anyway. The music that they released in other projects before Guns happens to be influential to many of thier counterparts, NIN, Primus, The Replacements if you like them or not are all pioneer's in thier own ways.

If Slash and Duff were on the album, it would have been totally different. 

CD songs were not that well received  by the average fan on the tour. During the two shows that I went to, I saw a lot of people going to the bathrooms or getting food during "This I Love" and "Better".  Madgascar was played during the encore. There weren't as many people leaving their seats due the song being towards the end of the show.

It's not an immature reason. Being in Guns N' Roses should have lifted their careers to new heights. It didn't. That says something about them.  Buckethead  has talent, but not enough to really be that well known. I said this in a previous thread. In the late 90s, I used to watch a show called "La Femme Nikita". It was a good show, but not great. It had a cult following because it served a niche. That's the same thing in regards to Buckethead. He's a niche because he's good, but not great. 

[PatrickS77]

3 hours ago, TheGeneral said:

GNR is Axls voice

That's where you're wrong. Axl's voice is not GNR, as Slash is not GNR. But both of it is a part of GNR. And that's were he made his mistake and hurt the acceptance of the album. On top of that it sounds different than what GNR is supposed to sound. With only a couple of good songs. It's reputation would be much different, had he released it under a different name and not destroyed GNR for that.