Why is Chinese Democracy so hated?

[PatrickS77]

44 minutes ago, Sosso said:

Most of UYI doesn't sounded like classic GN'R either. 

Yes. And many people say those albums suck because of it.

[DieselDaisy]

I'm honestly not sure how much Slash and Duff would've improved Chinese Democracy being that Rose would still be writing excruciatingly embarrassing lyrics like, '''sitting in a Chinese stew''. Would they've been able to rein in Rose's penchant for overdubs and late-90s rock? They failed to check the proliferation of Illusion overdubbing after all!

[Sosso]

10 minutes ago, PatrickS77 said:

Yes. And many people say those albums suck because of it.

Those people are in the minority

[PatrickS77]

1 hour ago, Silent Jay said:

Slash knows Prostitute, Sorry and Catcher in the Rye. Even if his guitar solos are a bit rough, I bet he enjoys playing these songs live. 

At this point, the band should keep the pace and try to perform If The World, Street Of Dreams and Oh My God next summer.

And all of those mentioned songs suck ass big time. I hope come summer they have forgotten to play them. Other than Chinese, Better, This I love, Madagascar and There was a time, none should be played at my shows. I could live with Shackler's, minus those electronic noises.

[Powderfinger]

2 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

I wouldn't say I hate it but I certainly don't consider it a particularly good album irrespective of the personnel.

I’m with DieselDaisy. Irrespective of personnel it doesn’t stand up against the rest of Albums.

If it had been released as a solo Axl album or a side project it might have been received differently. 

The last time people bought a new Guns record they got UYI 1&2, no matter the personnel on CD it was always going to be hard follow up those records.

They had to release 2 records to follow up Appetite! I think I read an interview where one of them said they wanted to bury Appetite with those records. 

I went to whateverthefuck that movie was and sat until the end to hear Oh My God for the first time. I loved it, and I thoughts the lyrics were fucking great. I was hoping CD would be more of that type of stuff. It was a cool blend of rock and industrial to me while still retaining the spirit of Guns. 

The leaks before it was released sounded good also I thought, I can’t fully remember but I think IRS, Better, TWAT and at least one or two other songs leaked and I think I preferred those mixes to what I heard on the album. I did like album version of TWAT. 

Axl’s a talented musician, and anything released he has written is worth exploring. There’s always going to be something I like. But I liked GNR. And that’s Axl, Izzy, Slash & Duffs ideas In a melting pot and put together with how each contributed to the sound of the band and the sound that shaped those songs. Each players nuances or instincts musically made the songs unique. 

I could hear moments of Guns N Roses in CD but it was far less than would make me listen to that album more than once a year. 

The OP saying he likes it better than the others records makes sense, it sounds so different to all the rest, and he likes that sound. It’s nice to get the neutral point of view. 

I just prefer the sound and songs of the rest. 

[PatrickS77]

7 minutes ago, Sosso said:

Those people are in the minority

Hmm. Well, almost twice as many people bought AFD than the illusion albums. So that point is arguable.

[DieselDaisy]

6 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

Well, I would say you hate it!

Nope, it doesn't quite descend to the depths of my ''hate'' category, a place encompassing U2's entire discography and a certain post-millennial Metallica record.

[Gibson87]

24 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

Chinese Democracy, Any U2 album, St. Anger.

You have to fuck one, marry one, kill one. Go.

Fuck the U2 album, marry CD, kill St. Anger

[Modano09]

I think it's kind of resented because it's seen as what Axl chose to do over continuing the original band. 

Edited January 28, 2018 by Modano09

[Tucknroll]

I hate it.  Especially because contraband was so good and just imagine how much better it would have been with axl.  If he sang on it rather than Scott then it might have been right up there with appetite. Instead he put out a CD with nobody's that was like a whole MY WORLD album 

[Damn This Jail]

I've listened to the album quite a bit. The bad mix betrays the sophistication of the artistry. It's multifaceted in an some amazing ways but in some aspects is way overdone. Sometimes when you give a musician too much time they can definitely overthink certain things. To be artistically multifaceted without overthinking certain aspects of music that oughta remain pure is an incredibly hard line to walk and Chinese Democracy proves that. Also, the songwriting for me personally is hit and miss.

It's good enough for any old album but the long wait sort of decontextualized the album overall and softened any impact it might of had- especially if it had been released in 2002 or something. 

It was just wrong place and wrong time by 2008. The album under the moniker of GNR is weird- for me, delightfully weird. But a large chunk of fans didn't think so. Plus it's not exactly Back in Black or Dark Side Of The Moon, so for most people, maybe not even worth the wait- especially for semi casual fans of the band. Truth is, it probably shouldn't have been called a GNR album. Horrible PR and it's obvious. Public relations is a huge part of music. And historically speaking, we all know this band/Axl has had issues in that department to say the least. 

[Order of Nine]

3 hours ago, Draguns said:

If Slash and Duff were on the album, it would have been totally different. 

CD songs were not that well received  by the average fan on the tour. During the two shows that I went to, I saw a lot of people going to the bathrooms or getting food during "This I Love" and "Better".  Madgascar was played during the encore. There weren't as many people leaving their seats due the song being towards the end of the show.

It's not an immature reason. Being in Guns N' Roses should have lifted their careers to new heights. It didn't. That says something about them.  Buckethead  has talent, but not enough to really be that well known. I said this in a previous thread. In the late 90s, I used to watch a show called "La Femme Nikita". It was a good show, but not great. It had a cult following because it served a niche. That's the same thing in regards to Buckethead. He's a niche because he's good, but not great. 

Material wise? Highly probable. And as far as casual fans and hardcore fans embracing it yes absolutely and it would have gotten many more miles of traction from a marketing standpoint, the industry would have known a bigger pay day was at stake.

Not from the show I was at, of course people take breaks in a 2 or 3 hour show durring songs they aren't familiar with. To think that the entire casual fan base that came to hear Sweet Child and Paradise City didn't like any of the newer material is off base. 

"Being in guns should have lifted thier careers to new heights" That's implying that your back to the mindset of not having a commercial rock album = obscurity. So by your logic Izzy, who is known worldwide from Guns should have had a similar career after he left Guns in his solo projects, clearly he didn't. And back to my point I'm sure he doesn't care, cause he wanted to make the music he wanted to make. Didnt Gary Cherone sing in Van Halen for a bit, so everything he's done since Van Halen should have "lifted him to new heights"?So it must all be about the money?Playing stadiums? Is that what all true musicians are inspired by? Bucket had a cult following and it grew after he had exposure in Guns, so Guns actually gave him more of a spot light. Case in point, I learned about him thru Guns in 2000. It's definitely a subjective argument/opinion about the style or taste of music. However, I can assure you Bucket has huge respect from peers if you look at him from the perspective of a guitarist. I happen to love alot of his solo stuff and I think it's above what has been released by Izzy, Duff, and Slash since each of them has left Guns. The post Guns solo efforts are cringe worthy most of the time for me. Of course there's some things I like here and there but I always compare it to Guns, it's not even in the same league. Also, Bucket really isn't a "niche" guy, he's all over the map, he's played with Bootsy Collins, Primus, has done video game soundtracks, and alot of his solo stuff covers a variety of styles. Bucket is a freak of nature, to call him "good" just shows me how out of touch you are in respect to abilities and accomplishments with different style sets. And I listened to Brains podcast last week he mentioned he got some big offers after he left Guns. He turned them down..did he miss the boat on "reaching new heights"? Maybe his pocket book did but I can assure you that is not always a piviotal factor when your searching to quench your muse. 

[RONIN]

I became a fan of GnR as a teen in the early 00's so I can sort of relate to where you're coming from. I caught the tail end of all the Chinese Democracy mystique in late '02 - '04 before it turned into a joke in '05 onwards.

The thing is this, GnR defined a generation with AFD and they peaked as pop culture icons w/ Illusions. By the late 90's, they had achieved legendary status and the Chinese album was built up as a potential masterpiece. The media and music fans saw Axl as a rock messiah - a rock genius. Everyone including his haters were intrigued and looking forward to hearing what he was going to come up with. I remember back in the early 00's, even hip/hop stars like Pharrell were talking about Axl. 

Expectations were huge. And as much as old school fans were salty and Axl haters wanted to see him fail - there was a ton of interest and people genuinely wanted to see Axl pull it off. By the late 90's/early 00's - Slash, Duff, Izzy, etc were IRRELEVANT. That's a fact that often gets lost in the argument. It wasn't about those guys anymore. Most people were onboard with Axl "updating" the band with new, more relevant band members. He had an all-star team and an unlimited budget. Axl was peaking as an artist in the mid to late 90's into the early 00's - he was still in his prime back then. So what happened?

1. The fucking thing took too long. He missed his window of opportunity. The dude basically sat out his entire 30's and watched the world move on without him. What could and should have been a blockbuster in the late 90's/early 00's turned into collective apathy by 2008. Nobody cared anymore. It could have been the greatest thing ever and people would have yawned. GnR and Axl were irrelevant by then. Original fans had moved on and casual fans couldn't give two fucks about Axl. The same album that would have gotten enthusiastic reviews in 2002 received lousy apathetic reviews in 2008. 

2. The tracks were ruined in the final album. The original demos sounded way better back during the first nu-guns tour in 2002. He basically ruined his own songs by overcooking them and doing inexplicable things like removing Brian May and adding Bumblefoot on top. Like I said before, he was in decline as an artist post 2002. His musical instincts/tastes were off the mark. The original demo for Catcher (whether you like it or not) is a classy affair especially by Axl standards and it just turns into this bloated hard rock mess once he reconfigures the song.

3. Axl entered his George Lucas/Prequel trilogy phase where it becomes more about the tech wankery and finding the latest whizbang bleeps and effects to bling out the songs rather than just creating a great song with strong lyrics. So it's technically proficient but the songs feel soulless and just lacking somehow compared to the earlier stuff. Illusions had the same problem but atleast he was working with great material that had the original players - even when he added all that shit to it, those songs may have been diminished but they were still awesome (just not as awesome as AFD). 

4. The material isn't strong enough. Weak lyrics and songs that while strong at times, simply don't rise up to the level of AFD and UYI. It just isn't all that good and that's really the bottom line and why people didn't rediscover it years later. It's a cult album rather than something where people feel they overlooked it the first time and then reassessed it positively. This album is still niche 10 years later because it just ain't that good. The problem is that it definitively proves that Axl, while important, was still only one piece of the ingredients needed for GnR. Imagine November Rain and Estranged without Slash or Don't Cry without Izzy and Slash - imagine how those songs would sound with Buckethead, Finck, and Stinson. That's Chinese Democracy. Those latter guys are good but they could not elevate Axl's material to classic status like Slash and company. 

5. Doesn't have as much replay value and memorability like the original stuff. No videos to imprint the material either and sell you with visuals to accompany the music. 

I actually really like Chinese Democracy and feel it's a strong album but it's nowhere near as good as the previous albums. I feel like it desperately needs Izzy, Slash and Duff to say "Nah - cut that shit, it sucks. Add this instead. No - too many layers dude, we don't need a choir here. etc etc" Basically - the guy needs an editor. He needs a strong producer and bandmates who are equals to say "this is classic but this other stuff sucks." This dude like Lucas and his prequels, just indulged himself without anyone to reign him in. So you get some great stuff mixed in with a lot of "WTF - WHY....Oh that's kinda cool - yeah, right on --- what the....wait...oh that just sucks..."

6. The way these songs were put together and created is truly an abomination. It's like a lab experiment. If he had just gone into a studio and jammed with Bucket, Finck, and Tommy - done his studio schtick of adding layers and had a producer put the whole thing together, it could have been great. Not GnR per se, but strong nontheless. But the redhead took tapes and tapes of these guys riffing in a studio and cut and pasted the fucking thing into random songs and added lyrics over the thing. It's just a completely incomprehensible way of creating an album. None of these guys actually were able to have creative input or truly create the song from the ground up, they just jammed and then had their riffs cut up into pieces and cut/pasted. Imagine constructing a song from a throwaway 15 second take from hours and hours of Buckethead jamming and having that become the centerpiece for a song. Fucking insane. These guys weren't a band. Axl was trying to be an auteur and use all these talents as session musicians instead of having them become true collaborators. Unfortunately for Axl, he just isn't that talented to pull off something like this. 

7. He broke up the old band for a mediocre album. That's the bottom line at the end of the day. Had the album been great, all would have been forgiven. But it wasn't. I was totally on board for Chinese. I was expecting Illusion 3. What I got was some odd mix of trendy music styles from 1994-2002 thrown into a blender w/ Axl vocals. 

8. His voice. The last time Axl sounded like Axl was 1994 on Sympathy for the Devil. I don't know what happened afterwards but he sounds noticeably different on Chinese. Another reason he should have made an album with Slash in '96 or put out Chinese Democracy in the late 90's when he still had his vintage voice.

Edited January 28, 2018 by RONIN

[RONIN]

3 hours ago, Powderfinger said:

 

I went to whateverthefuck that movie was and sat until the end to hear Oh My God for the first time. I loved it, and I thoughts the lyrics were fucking great. I was hoping CD would be more of that type of stuff. It was a cool blend of rock and industrial to me while still retaining the spirit of Guns. 

 

It was the Arnold Schwarzenegger masterpiece End of Days that you're thinking of.

"Oh My God" was a kickass song. I'm not even a fan of Industrial per se but that song was great. Why didn't we get an album of those types of songs? It's like the negative reception scared him away from the more experimental styles he was thinking of. Chinese Democracy is actually way more of a conventional rock record than what fans were promised back in the late 90's/early 00's. I feel like he lost his nerve and watered down the album so it could have mainstream appeal which was a mistake in retrospect.

Also, as good as Oh My God was, did it really need the industrial soundscapes? How awesome would that song have been with Slash and Izzy wailing over it with Duff's raw basslines? I kinda get why Duff and Matt thought it was crap - why not just do that song with the classic GnR style?

That's the other thing - I felt like Chinese was shoehorning all these random elements (instruments, layers, effects) that didn't really need to be there or even belong in the song - it's like Axl thought it sounded cool and that's the only reason it's in the song. Reminds me of Slash talking about Illusions and wondering why Axl was adding all this weird shit to songs that were already perfect as is. 

Edited January 28, 2018 by RONIN

[gnfnrs1972]

For being the 4th or 5th album, depending on if you count UYI as 1 or 2 albums, it is quite a good effort for a brand. Most bands cant pull off good albums past the first 1 or 2.

[-Jaro-]

Some parts sound like Ross on keyboards in Friends.... Axl's voice is changed and overproduced in female pop singers way (he has Rihana's guitarist also...). And you add freak show - you have not so loved album...

From Guns I expect rock band, from rock band I expect guitars, drums, bass, some good to great lyrics and I can live with piano (even little bit of key effects) - but CD has nothing of it... or has everything too much...

Fuck - St.Anger is better for me

 

 

[DieselDaisy]

7 minutes ago, -Jaro- said:

Some parts sound like Ross on keyboards in Friends.... Axl's voice is changed and overproduced in female pop singers way (he has Rihana's guitarist also...). And you add freak show - you have not so loved album...

From Guns I expect rock band, from rock band I expect guitars, drums, bass, some good to great lyrics and I can live with piano (even little bit of key effects) - but CD has nothing of it... or has everything too much...

Fuck - St.Anger is better for me

 

 

Auto-tuned. I've long suspected Rose's vocals have been auto-tuned on that album, ''If the World'' especially so.

[t-p-d-a]

I don't say Slash is GN'R but no Slash, no GN'R

At the time in 2011 - 2014. Slash with Myles Kennedy sounded more like GN'R than NuGN'R... and Slash in concerts was more fun than NuGN'R concerts..

Guns N' Roses in Munich and Hannover in 2017 was absoluty fun! Even the CD Songs were cool.. I can't wait for Berlin and Leipzig 2018

 

[Padme]

11 hours ago, TheGeneral said:

Okay, so there have probably been a million threads about this but I'm sorry I just don't get it.

I am 18, so a younger fan of GNR. I started listening around 2014/15. I wasn't around for the pre-CD Era so I don't get that connection-feeling for the AFD5 which I think is actually a good thing since I can be neutral on many topics.

I got to be neutral on AFD, Lies, UYI, Spaghetti Incident and also Chinese Democracy. I enjoyed them all, but CD always stood out to me. I had to get used to it, to the sound of the songs and Axls voice but thats what I love about it: It's something completely different. I like the many 'layers' it has. I like everything about it. I even like the songs that I would consider 'bad'. 

After reading on the forums the only reason many people hate it is because it was released under the name "Guns N Roses"...but who cares about that? Yeah, it was Axl alone. But I bet if Slash stayed in the band and the album would have consisted of Axl, Slash & NuGNR nobody would have complained. It doesn't really matter to me anyway since to me GNR is Axls voice, to others it may be Slashs riffs. And thats okay with me. To each their own.

I also think CD gave us one of the best GNR songs ever: Better.

I'm not trying to attack anyone here on their beliefs on who or what GNR is, just please explain to a young GNR fan that is new to this forum why there are so many haters because I think it is a great album.

I just don't like most of the songs. I don't understand what the songs are about. It was too much of a departure from original GN'R. You like Better? Please explain me what the song is about. I don't like that baby Axl voice in the intro. For most of the album I really miss the kind of intros we have in songs like  WTTJ or YCBM.

The lyrics in general are boring and bad. I sense a lot of self pitty from Axl's part in songs like TWAT or Madagascar

For you GN'R is Axl's voice. Well for me GN'R is Axl's voice, Slash riffs and the songs both of them wrote with Izzy and Duff

[Tadsy]

It's just really not that good. 

Slash doing CD songs on this tour adds about 20% to the songs themselves, but it's still bang average stuff. 

 

Slash or no slash, those songs the way they were released just stink. 

 

 

[Natty]

I was 14 when i fell in love with GNR. it was before illusions came out. my first concert with 15 or 16 unfortunately already with Matt on drums. 

why I dont like CD? The music. it s not hardrock , I dont know what it is but I dont like the melodys nor lyrics nor do I feel something... If I hear songs from the previous albums I start to sing out loud, jump, headbang or whatever. when i hear cd I just dont feel it and remain seated. Presence of Duff and slash wouldn t change it if they songs wouldnt be completely different. 

[PirateRadio]

Because Axl used the brand Guns N‘ Roses on the thing. It’s really that simple. The songs are good and fun to listen to. But ouch...Axl just HAD to make it a Guns release. Big big backfire.

[PirateRadio]

21 hours ago, RONIN said:

I became a fan of GnR as a teen in the early 00's so I can sort of relate to where you're coming from. I caught the tail end of all the Chinese Democracy mystique in late '02 - '04 before it turned into a joke in '05 onwards.

The thing is this, GnR defined a generation with AFD and they peaked as pop culture icons w/ Illusions. By the late 90's, they had achieved legendary status and the Chinese album was built up as a potential masterpiece. The media and music fans saw Axl as a rock messiah - a rock genius. Everyone including his haters were intrigued and looking forward to hearing what he was going to come up with. I remember back in the early 00's, even hip/hop stars like Pharrell were talking about Axl. 

Expectations were huge. And as much as old school fans were salty and Axl haters wanted to see him fail - there was a ton of interest and people genuinely wanted to see Axl pull it off. By the late 90's/early 00's - Slash, Duff, Izzy, etc were IRRELEVANT. That's a fact that often gets lost in the argument. It wasn't about those guys anymore. Most people were onboard with Axl "updating" the band with new, more relevant band members. He had an all-star team and an unlimited budget. Axl was peaking as an artist in the mid to late 90's into the early 00's - he was still in his prime back then. So what happened?

1. The fucking thing took too long. He missed his window of opportunity. The dude basically sat out his entire 30's and watched the world move on without him. What could and should have been a blockbuster in the late 90's/early 00's turned into collective apathy by 2008. Nobody cared anymore. It could have been the greatest thing ever and people would have yawned. GnR and Axl were irrelevant by then. Original fans had moved on and casual fans couldn't give two fucks about Axl. The same album that would have gotten enthusiastic reviews in 2002 received lousy apathetic reviews in 2008. 

2. The tracks were ruined in the final album. The original demos sounded way better back during the first nu-guns tour in 2002. He basically ruined his own songs by overcooking them and doing inexplicable things like removing Brian May and adding Bumblefoot on top. Like I said before, he was in decline as an artist post 2002. His musical instincts/tastes were off the mark. The original demo for Catcher (whether you like it or not) is a classy affair especially by Axl standards and it just turns into this bloated hard rock mess once he reconfigures the song.

3. Axl entered his George Lucas/Prequel trilogy phase where it becomes more about the tech wankery and finding the latest whizbang bleeps and effects to bling out the songs rather than just creating a great song with strong lyrics. So it's technically proficient but the songs feel soulless and just lacking somehow compared to the earlier stuff. Illusions had the same problem but atleast he was working with great material that had the original players - even when he added all that shit to it, those songs may have been diminished but they were still awesome (just not as awesome as AFD). 

4. The material isn't strong enough. Weak lyrics and songs that while strong at times, simply don't rise up to the level of AFD and UYI. It just isn't all that good and that's really the bottom line and why people didn't rediscover it years later. It's a cult album rather than something where people feel they overlooked it the first time and then reassessed it positively. This album is still niche 10 years later because it just ain't that good. The problem is that it definitively proves that Axl, while important, was still only one piece of the ingredients needed for GnR. Imagine November Rain and Estranged without Slash or Don't Cry without Izzy and Slash - imagine how those songs would sound with Buckethead, Finck, and Stinson. That's Chinese Democracy. Those latter guys are good but they could not elevate Axl's material to classic status like Slash and company. 

5. Doesn't have as much replay value and memorability like the original stuff. No videos to imprint the material either and sell you with visuals to accompany the music. 

I actually really like Chinese Democracy and feel it's a strong album but it's nowhere near as good as the previous albums. I feel like it desperately needs Izzy, Slash and Duff to say "Nah - cut that shit, it sucks. Add this instead. No - too many layers dude, we don't need a choir here. etc etc" Basically - the guy needs an editor. He needs a strong producer and bandmates who are equals to say "this is classic but this other stuff sucks." This dude like Lucas and his prequels, just indulged himself without anyone to reign him in. So you get some great stuff mixed in with a lot of "WTF - WHY....Oh that's kinda cool - yeah, right on --- what the....wait...oh that just sucks..."

6. The way these songs were put together and created is truly an abomination. It's like a lab experiment. If he had just gone into a studio and jammed with Bucket, Finck, and Tommy - done his studio schtick of adding layers and had a producer put the whole thing together, it could have been great. Not GnR per se, but strong nontheless. But the redhead took tapes and tapes of these guys riffing in a studio and cut and pasted the fucking thing into random songs and added lyrics over the thing. It's just a completely incomprehensible way of creating an album. None of these guys actually were able to have creative input or truly create the song from the ground up, they just jammed and then had their riffs cut up into pieces and cut/pasted. Imagine constructing a song from a throwaway 15 second take from hours and hours of Buckethead jamming and having that become the centerpiece for a song. Fucking insane. These guys weren't a band. Axl was trying to be an auteur and use all these talents as session musicians instead of having them become true collaborators. Unfortunately for Axl, he just isn't that talented to pull off something like this. 

7. He broke up the old band for a mediocre album. That's the bottom line at the end of the day. Had the album been great, all would have been forgiven. But it wasn't. I was totally on board for Chinese. I was expecting Illusion 3. What I got was some odd mix of trendy music styles from 1994-2002 thrown into a blender w/ Axl vocals. 

8. His voice. The last time Axl sounded like Axl was 1994 on Sympathy for the Devil. I don't know what happened afterwards but he sounds noticeably different on Chinese. Another reason he should have made an album with Slash in '96 or put out Chinese Democracy in the late 90's when he still had his vintage voice.

You may be the smartest and most well written poster on here, and I agree with most of your opinions in this post ... accept the thought that the public was pining for anything Axl in the late 90s/early 00s. Just my opinion, but I felt that music, as a whole, sucked during this time period, and there was less credibility given to the music industry. So if Axl was the Messiah, it was the blind leading the blind. 

 

The rest of old Guns were very irrelevant, like you wrote, but Slash was still Slash, and a savable brand. What the fuck was Axl?! — A weirdo. It was a confusing time in music back then. The rock genre was no more, and Axl wasn’t bringing in back. If anything, he was just a little weirder that anybody else, which is saying a lot. 

 

But anyways, thank you, Ronin, for posting on here for so long and so thoughtfully. You’re a real talent! Loved your post!

Edited January 29, 2018 by PirateRadio

[Original]

Because it is under the (false) premise that its “Guns n Roses”.   It should be called Axl Rose (solo).    No one considers it a GnR album. 

[Hollywood Gunner]

because its the worst gnr album. i dont hate it but if i had a choice between listening to CD or TSI from front to back id chose TSI