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Cultural/Political/Social Trends & Divergence Thread


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Listen, it ain't fuckin' rocket science, its simple maths, if you ain't black don't fuckin' call no black person it unless you want to give em the needle.  Are you fuckin' disallowed from sayin' it, no, if you're in court sticking up for a guy who got called n!gger before someone shot him you can use it, if you are reading a serial killers letter to the San Francisco Chronicle and he says it you can use it, you can use it just about any fuckin' time you feel like but call a black person it and its not a friendly thing and if you ever wannabe unfriendly to a black person, thats a good way of going about it. 

You are absolutely free to use the word but as with anything in life there are repercussions, words carry along with them repercussions, if I'm on a train with a bunch of Brazillians and I address them with the phrase 'listen up all you Brazillian cunts' then there's a good chance someone might kick me in the bollocks over it.  And then some.  Its an insult.  It will illicit a similar reaction as bitch or whore or cunt used when addressing someone.

 

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1 hour ago, Len Cnut said:

Listen, it ain't fuckin' rocket science, its simple maths, if you ain't black don't fuckin' call no black person it unless you want to give em the needle.  Are you fuckin' disallowed from sayin' it, no, if you're in court sticking up for a guy who got called n!gger before someone shot him you can use it, if you are reading a serial killers letter to the San Francisco Chronicle and he says it you can use it, you can use it just about any fuckin' time you feel like but call a black person it and its not a friendly thing and if you ever wannabe unfriendly to a black person, thats a good way of going about it. 

You are absolutely free to use the word but as with anything in life there are repercussions, words carry along with them repercussions, if I'm on a train with a bunch of Brazillians and I address them with the phrase 'listen up all you Brazillian cunts' then there's a good chance someone might kick me in the bollocks over it.  And then some.  Its an insult.  It will illicit a similar reaction as bitch or whore or cunt used when addressing someone.

 

But why can black people call other black people the n-word then? I don't get that. Those Brazilian cunts wouldn't be calling themselves Brazilian cunts, would they?

Only black people can call themselves that, all other coloured people are excluded from saying the n-word. Because that would be racist. I find that ironic.

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44 minutes ago, Lio said:

But why can black people call other black people the n-word then? I don't get that. Those Brazilian cunts wouldn't be calling themselves Brazilian cunts, would they?

Only black people can call themselves that, all other coloured people are excluded from saying the n-word. Because that would be racist. I find that ironic.

Well its simple really.  I'm asian right, if another asian person calls me an asian related insult it don't sting the same.  Now pretend asian insults have a multi-centuries long history of a particular slur being used to dehumanize and degrade them, with the attendant history of slavery and shit attached to it.  I mean this stuff is thrown around like a sociological football lately but, I dunno, go look at old 1800s newspapers adverts of 'Strong N!gger for sale, good stock, experienced in field and livestock, x amount of dollars', go read about selective breeding, go read about the deliberate seperation from education so as not to give rise to 'smart n!ggers', go read about 12 yr old Emmett Till getting beaten to death by grown men for, allegedly, whistling at a white woman', its hard to encapsulate all this shit into a little post on a rock bands forum but then think about that shit for just a little bit, its not hard to understand why for black folks n!gger might be more jarring than your average.  I'm not trying to sound patronising, I'm sure you know all this and more and I'm not some kind of authority on black history but...c'mon, is it hard to understand why? 

I can sympathise, or try to empathise...and even I can reach that conclusion, so what must it be like for an black fella in America or what have you.  I don't know, I can't speak for other people, I just don't find the shit hard to understand, in the same way I don't find it hard to understand why it's probably not a good idea to make jokes about the Shoah to Jewish folks. 

And anyway, its not like all other people are excluded by some kind of mandate, to me its just common sense, something you don't do out of the goodness of your heart, otherwise no ones stopping you, not really, skinhead groups, nazi's...and even just normal people do it every day, I'm sure everyone that raps along to songs ain't that adept at avoiding it, but do it publically and it will get a response.  Also slavery is kind of recent history, civil rights etc is even more recent, there are people alive who lives through segregated lunch counters and back of the bus and firehoses and dogs sicced on em and CIA COINTELPRO basically shutting down and destroying black activist movements, those people are alive today, so you can point out that, y'know, slavery was a LOOONG time ago (like there is some kind of statute of limitations on when you should be sensitive about this stuff) but all that other stuff really wasn't.  Its been a very gradual untying of the knot and, clearly, based on recent history its not completely untied. 

If you were to be cold about it, I mean clinical, yeah, there is an irony there but we're human beings and everything isn't about 100% cold robotic assessments of shit, we're human beings, flesh and blood, we have sensitivities that aren't always best represented by cold clinical reasoning.  Perhaps with time it'll be less of an issue, maybe centuries from now when slavery is lower down on the list of human atrocities (Lord forbid we have similar in the future to add) it'll be less of a problem but at of the early 21st Century, its still a sensitve point and its not difficult, for me at least, to understand why.

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32 minutes ago, Lio said:

But why can black people call other black people the n-word then? I don't get that. Those Brazilian cunts wouldn't be calling themselves Brazilian cunts, would they?

Only black people can call themselves that, all other coloured people are excluded from saying the n-word. Because that would be racist. I find that ironic.

Because context. The word was used to dehumanize black people. To make it easier to enslave them, to lynch them, to justify legally forcing them out of what passed for civilized society during the Jim Crow apartheid, for making it easier to ignore the institutional racism that has existed always and still endures now. 

It takes on a different context when used by black people (which is not to say that all or most black people use the word amongst themselves or are comfortable with others doing it either). And with all due respect, I don’t understand how that’s not blatantly obvious.

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1 minute ago, Len Cnut said:

Well its simple really.  I'm asian right, if another person calls me an asian related insult it don't sting the same.  Now pretend asian insults have a multi-centuries long history of a particular slur being used to dehumanize and degrade them, with the attendant history of slavery and shit attached to it.  I mean this stuff is thrown around like a sociological football lately but, I dunno, go look at old 1800s newspapers adverts of 'Strong N!gger for sale, good stock, experienced in field and livestock, x amount of dollars', go read about selective breeding, go read about the deliberate seperation from education so as not to give rise to 'smart n!ggers', go read about 12 yr old Emmett Till getting beaten to death by grown men for, allegedly, whistling at a white woman', its hard to encapsulate all this shit into a little post on a rock bands forum but then think about that shit for just a little bit, its not hard to understand why for black folks n!gger might be more jarring than your average.  I'm not trying to sound patronising, I'm sure you know all this and more and I'm not some kind of authority on black history but...c'mon, is it hard to understand why? 

I can sympathise, or try to empathise...and even I can reach that conclusion, so what must it be like for an black fella in America or what have you.  I don't know, I can't speak for other people, I just don't find the shit hard to understand, in the same way I don't find it hard to understand why it's probably not a good idea to make jokes about the Shoah to Jewish folks. 

And anyway, its not like all other people are excluded by some kind of mandate, to me its just common sense, something you don't do out of the goodness of your heart, otherwise no ones stopping you, not really, skinhead groups, nazi's...and even just normal people do it every day but do it publically and it will get a response.  Also slavery is kind of recent history, civil rights etc is even more recent, there are people alive who lives through segregated lunch counters and back of the bus and firehoses and dogs sicced on em and CIA COINTELPRO basically shutting down and destroying black activist movements, those people are alive today, so you can point out that, y'know, slavery was a LOOONG time ago (like there is some kind of statute of limitations on when you should be sensitive about this stuff) but all that other stuff really wasn't.  Its been a very gradual untying of the knot and, clearly, based on recent history its not completely untied. 

If you were to be cold about it, I mean clinical, yeah, there is an irony there but we're human beings and everything isn't about 100% cold robotic assessments of shit, we're human beings, flesh and blood, we have sensitivities that aren't always best represented by cold clinical reasoning. 

Yeah, I understand all that. I won't go around calling anyone the n-word. I just think it's odd they would call themselves that. Hm, we have a word for that in Dutch, but I can't find an English word that grasps that meaning specifically, to me at least. It's like a sort of honourary name a certain group gives themselves, that originated as a term of abuse of said group. (Like for example gay people being proud to call themselves poofs.) Thinking about it, I suppose that might be exactly what it is.

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8 minutes ago, Lio said:

Yeah, I understand all that. I won't go around calling anyone the n-word. I just think it's odd they would call themselves that. Hm, we have a word for that in Dutch, but I can't find an English word that grasps that meaning specifically, to me at least. It's like a sort of honourary name a certain group gives themselves, that originated as a term of abuse of said group. (Like for example gay people being proud to call themselves poofs.) Thinking about it, I suppose that might be exactly what it is.

Its not too dissimilar from the way friends or people within a group can kinda throw insults around and it not be hurtful but if someone else does it you might get a slap.  Obviously there's a bit more depth to it than that but its a version thereof.  And as Angelica pointed out, its not like ALL black people do it, a great many find the word, and indeed the culture of using it the way it is among some black folks, abhorrant. 

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Just now, Lio said:

Yeah, I understand all that. I won't go around calling anyone the n-word. I just think it's odd they would call themselves that. Hm, we have a word for that in Dutch, but I can't find an English word that grasps that meaning specifically, to me at least. It's like a sort of honourary name a certain group gives themselves, that originated as a term of abuse of said group. (Like for example gay people being proud to call themselves poofs.) Thinking about it, I suppose that might be exactly what it is.

It’s about taking the power of the word away. My cousin and I have called each other kike and various other anti-Semitic terms since we were kids out of a similar impulse. 

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And its not exclusive to black people too, as someone of a muslim background I kinda have certain sensitivites where I kinda always have in the back of my mind where I don't wanna like...come off like some stereotype of muslims to christian and jewish people.  The negative aspects.  I mean don't get me wrong, I don't run up to Hassidic Jews and pump handshake and give em eye contact and go 'Hey, hi, how are you?  Its GREAT that you're a jew!' or anything but...y'know, its kinda always there.  I'm a fuckin' atheist anyway but I don't LOOK like one, if that makes any sense at all :lol:  And I'd hate to come across like some fuckin'...I dunno, prejudiced person.  I mean push me to a point and I don't care what anybody fuckin' things but I don't walk around with some kind of hair trigger Axl Rose attitude, in a day to day sense I don't wanna come off like a cunt to anybody.  I'd like to be cool generally, to people.  Not Steve McQueen cool, I mean like, y'know, alright to em.

And I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with that, as long as you're not patronizing to people, we all, conciously or subconciously, carry a little bit of the weight and sensitivities of our backgrounds, I think.  Or maybe its just me.

Edited by Len Cnut
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14 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

And its not exclusive to black people too, as someone of a muslim background I kinda have certain sensitivites where I kinda always have in the back of my mind where I don't wanna like...come off like some stereotype of muslims to christian and jewish people.  The negative aspects.  I mean don't get me wrong, I don't run up to Hassidic Jews and pump handshake and give em eye contact and go 'Hey, hi, how are you?  Its GREAT that you're a jew!' or anything but...y'know, its kinda always there.  I'm a fuckin' atheist anyway but I don't LOOK like one, if that makes any sense at all :lol:  And I'd hate to come across like some fuckin'...I dunno, prejudiced person.  I mean push me to a point and I don't care what anybody fuckin' things but I don't walk around with some kind of hair trigger Axl Rose attitude, in a day to day sense I don't wanna come off like a cunt to anybody.  I'd like to be cool generally, to people.  Not Steve McQueen cool, I mean like, y'know, alright to em.

And I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with that, as long as you're not patronizing to people, we all, conciously or subconciously, carry a little bit of the weight and sensitivities of our backgrounds, I think.  Or maybe its just me.

This. But from an atheist from a Sephardic Jewish background. 😂

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3 hours ago, Len Cnut said:

You are absolutely free to use the word but as with anything in life there are repercussions, words carry along with them repercussions, if I'm on a train with a bunch of Brazillians and I address them with the phrase 'listen up all you Brazillian cunts' then there's a good chance someone might kick me in the bollocks over it.  And then some.  Its an insult.  It will illicit a similar reaction as bitch or whore or cunt used when addressing someone.

:lol:

In Brazil you cant say any of that to black people because they can sue you. It's real, they've taken it really serious.

There was one Argie football player who called a Brazilian player racial slurs during a game and they got him arrested, plus had to pay a fine.

And when I got there for the first time, I was warned of keeping my mouth shout if I was going to act like I never seen a black person before, which is typical of Argie to go idiot about it. :ph34r::ph34r:

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The term "Christian" was an insult that was reclaimed to disempower the negativity too. Today in my neck of the woods a lot of people identify as "queer," but mainstream olds would still hear that as an insult so it can get confusing, and dangerous even. Like the more queer friends you have, the greater the odds that you'll end up getting labeled a homophobe by normals because of confusion over something you said.

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Its actually probably loosening in terms of acceptability, any number of white people around hip hop have started dropping that shit, look on youtube and you see white kids with their black mates droppin' it in some scatty little hood somewhere, if that was the 80s they'd hang em up by the fuckin' bollocks. Tom Hankses son says that shit left right and centre, even tried to explain it away with what was possibly the worst explanation since Axl tried to explain One in a Million.  In America its more accepted anyway, its certainly not over here, call a black man that in London town and you'll get fuckin' leathered.  

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1 hour ago, -W.A.R- said:

White people shouldn't say it because you sound stupid whether you're using it to be racist or to be "down"

Nothing is more more cringy then some pasty white guy or girl saying it to be cool.

 

:lol:

I dunno why white is uncool in the minds of so many young people, some of the greatest icons of cool are white guys, why would a white guy want to be anything else? :lol:  Why would any fuckin' body for that matter but you guys have Steve McQueen, Marlon Brando, Jimmy Dean, John Lennon, John Lydon, Jim Morrison, I could go on for days.  I could name you as many cool white guys as I could black guys.  The list of white bad motherfuckers is not lacking by any means.  I mean spare a thought for us Asian cunts, in the whole entire continent that stretches over fuck knows how many nations all we have is Bruce Lee :lol: 

Edited by Len Cnut
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2 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

:lol:

I dunno why white is uncool in the minds of so many young people, some of the greatest icons of cool are white guys, why would a white guy want to be anything else? :lol:  Why would any fuckin' body for that matter but you guys have Steve McQueen, Marlon Brando, Jimmy Dean, John Lennon, John Lydon, Jim Morrison, I could go on for days.  I could name you as many cool white guys as I could black guys.  The list of white bad motherfuckers is not lacking by any means.

Yeah but white kid's don't look up to those guys these days, most of 'em wouldn't know them from adam :lol:

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18 minutes ago, janrichmond said:

Yeah but white kid's don't look up to those guys these days, most of 'em wouldn't know them from adam :lol:

They only know what they see on TV (Youtube).

I had my blunder years of wearing baggy clothing and a gaudy Jesus piece chain i bought at the mall....I DON'T EVEN BELIEVE IN JESUS!!! :lol:

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2 hours ago, janrichmond said:

Yeah but white kid's don't look up to those guys these days, most of 'em wouldn't know them from adam :lol:

Well alright then, Johnny Depp, Gary Oldman, Tim Roth, Mickey Rourke, Shaun Ryder (perhaps a bit older!), Ian Brown, (again perhaps a bit older), Kurt Cobain (alright he's dead but I'm sure kids have heard of him and he's still pretty rated), Christian Bale, Tom Hardy, Leonardo Di Caprio, Woody Harrelson, Hank Williams III, Keith Richards (enough people have heard of The Stones to know him to be a cool fucker).

You could point out that a lot of these guys, in fact probably all are over 40 and middle aged so kids don't rate em like that but then fuck me, by that rationale 90% of the people I ever thought were cool, as in proper cool, the definition of cool, stylish, poised, with a certain lairyness about em were WAY before my time, Steve McQueen, Marlon Brando and all the other ones I mentioned, they're hardly of my time.  The word icon is chucked around a lot but, to me, to be an icon of something, like style or cool, you have to have been around for a little while to be sort of ingrained in the public consciousness as an icon of whatever thing it is.  Even when you're a lad and you're into some band, the people in it are like often of an whole other generation.  I mean fuck me, Axl Rose is five years younger than my Dad.  Oliver Reed, Michael Caine, I rated them as a kid and they are nowhere near my generation.  Technically they ain't even of my old mans generation but they were just icons of cool growing up.  Stuff you saw on posters.  

Alain Delon, now there's fuckin' cool for ya, this arrogant french fucker that smoked a cigarette like he was born with it:

The-Rake-Alain-Delon-01-1200x800.jpg

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@Len Cnut you are an old soul, if you know what i mean :lol: Your idols are great actors/singers that are admired by people of all ages but i dunno if the 'yoof' of today have strong opinions about artists. I work with some young uns so i'm gonna ask them who their idols are and get back to you. Did your mates have the same view as you, in regards to idols? You're 36 right?

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39 minutes ago, janrichmond said:

@Len Cnut you are an old soul, if you know what i mean :lol: Your idols are great actors/singers that are admired by people of all ages but i dunno if the 'yoof' of today have strong opinions about artists. I work with some young uns so i'm gonna ask them who their idols are and get back to you. Did your mates have the same view as you, in regards to idols? You're 36 right?

35.  Those friends that were bothered about pop culture would probably give similar answers, yeah, similar-ish, Clint Eastwood is one that'd be in there.  See to me cool is a very specific thing.  I mean let me be clear here, there's types of cool.  There's the cool where something is OK with you and then there's cool cool, like style icons and that.  Younger people (and people of my age group and older too come to that) would probably name football players of their generation too, George Best, again, style icon.  Some nowadays might name David Beckham but see I remember him as the gay voiced little twat from Man Utd so he doesn't carry the same currency to me as he might do to a younger person who knows him more for being a smartly dressed aftershave advert bloke.  Eminem I guess many would mention who to me, though a pretty cool character, isn't like...a style icon.  Thats what cool is to me, its a very specific thing and it would have to be explained like that, icons of style, before you could get the real answers.

It'd be an interesting idea for a thread actually, icons of cool and who your ones are.  And mine are quite typical really, someone like Steve McQueen is a great example of like...y'know, decent clothing brands like Barbour to this day release 'The Steve McQueen Collection' and it fuckin' sells, watch brands like Rolex use him, or like car companys like Ford and Mustang, or the famous Tag Monaco watch is marketed using Steve McQueens image, he must have some sort of like...appeal in real terms for him to be that sort of a functional marketing tool.  Even when you go down Portobello Road and see those poster sells more often than not he's in there, even furniture stores will have some kinda new age living room lay out and they'll be a framed poster of Bullitt, its too ubiquitous to be a niche thing.  

Perhaps its to do with star quality, X factor or whatever other buzzword there is but its something that some people have that can't be attached to just anybody.  Some of them are kinda fringe figures and counter culture icons but a lot of em are like...pretty routinely known around the world.  Marilyn Monroe is another one.  But its an interesting idea you've thrown up about kids of today and who they'd name, I'm not sure I could answer that.  I guess you kind of have to be into fashion and clothes and stuff too.  Take for example like Mod style, to this day Mod is fuckin' cool, I mean Liam Gallagher basically started a clothing line Pretty Green that is just all Mod knock offs cuz that look is just kind of timeless.  Muhammad Ali is another one, Bruce Lee is another one, they're kind of icons of cool, whatever they were doing they looked good doing it, often dressed in shit that would make me or you look stupid.  I'm sure a lot of young people today would name Muhammad Ali.

Its interesting that as a straight guy I've named only one woman :lol:  I could name tons though, Audrey Hepburn, Brigette Bardot, Winona Ryder, Drew Barrymore for a while had it, though she lost it.

A great example actually of my estimation of cool would be Guns n Roses.  Guns n Roses only really had two cool members, which is Slash and Izzy. Cuz they always looked cool whatever the fuck they were wearing, they carried it off perfectly and their personalities had that unflappable unaffected quality to them.  Axl, though he came close, was never that because Axl Rose gives the impression of someone who is the polar opposite of unflappable.  Also, dress-wise, he sometimes made some crap choices.  Don't get me wrong, he probably pulled off as many daring choices or more than bad choices he made but overall he ain't the whole package, never was.  He was way too neurotic to ever be the kind of cool I'm talking about. Any man that reactive could never be truly cool.  Not to say a lot of the aforementioned weren't also quick tempered individuals but they also had a degree of temperance or at very least the appearance of it.

Edited by Len Cnut
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3 hours ago, Len Cnut said:

Its actually probably loosening in terms of acceptability, any number of white people around hip hop have started dropping that shit, look on youtube and you see white kids with their black mates droppin' it in some scatty little hood somewhere, if that was the 80s they'd hang em up by the fuckin' bollocks. Tom Hankses son says that shit left right and centre, even tried to explain it away with what was possibly the worst explanation since Axl tried to explain One in a Million.  In America its more accepted anyway, its certainly not over here, call a black man that in London town and you'll get fuckin' leathered.  

Idk, where I’m from you’ll still get your wig split for letting it fly. You might get away with it if you’re with your boys and kinda listening and quoting a song, but as far as just using it as normal slang and throwing it around it’s still not cool.

On an odd opposite note, I’ve actually been called it a lot. Yo this is J, he’s my hooray for tolerance!. Nah J’s cool that’s my hooray for tolerance!. J, what up my hooray for tolerance!. J you gonna that that blunt today or tomorrow hooray for tolerance! :lol:

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4 hours ago, Len Cnut said:

:lol:

I dunno why white is uncool in the minds of so many young people, some of the greatest icons of cool are white guys, why would a white guy want to be anything else? :lol:  Why would any fuckin' body for that matter but you guys have Steve McQueen, Marlon Brando, Jimmy Dean, John Lennon, John Lydon, Jim Morrison, I could go on for days.  I could name you as many cool white guys as I could black guys.  The list of white bad motherfuckers is not lacking by any means.  I mean spare a thought for us Asian cunts, in the whole entire continent that stretches over fuck knows how many nations all we have is Bruce Lee :lol: 

But look at the cool white guys to identify with now. All the cool ones are dead. 

I guess with kids you just like what you like then start acting like them. My exposure to those words were mainly through rap like NWA and Snoop. But I never took on their personas or identified with them like hood kids might now. At the end of the day they buy the music. 

Another thing is we only hear from the ones talking like rappers. Some white guy who thinks he’s Kurt or Morrissey doesn’t get as much attention as Eminem. Like I don’t know the lead singers of My chemical romance, BFMV, or that other band I can’t remember. 

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2 hours ago, janrichmond said:

@Len Cnut you are an old soul, if you know what i mean :lol: Your idols are great actors/singers that are admired by people of all ages but i dunno if the 'yoof' of today have strong opinions about artists. I work with some young uns so i'm gonna ask them who their idols are and get back to you. Did your mates have the same view as you, in regards to idols? You're 36 right?

I agree with you here.... kids dont look up to people over 40 today. Even when I was kid, I was worried about Axl's age because I thought he was TOO OLD for me and I had the hots for him but I thought that was wrong because I was kid :lol:

Nowadays kids idols or icons dont come exclusively from music like in our times. They look up to technology people, YouTubers, Instagramers, people who are much more reachable than Hollywood celebrities, other kids like them and also, there's a lot of niche stuff. Like, massive idols dont exist anymore. It's all niche stuff from the Internet.

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