Our Interview with Doug Goldstein (Former GNR Manager)

[Sydney Fan]

7 hours ago, downzy said:

Because it's on other people to get Axl to release new music?

Again, there are so many misconceptions as to what a manager actually does.  A manager isn't a psychiatrist or motivational speaker.  They handle the day to day affairs and help to execute for their clients on the business side.  

I know that. Im not asking whether the managers played a role in getting axl to release music. My question was more how their management style irked axl and was the reason for their downfall or services no longer required. Also i can bet their were managers with different artists who unfortunately had to be psychiatrists in order tok get certain jobs ddone, but agree being one is not in their job description.

Edited April 5, 2018 by Sydney Fan

[Ratam]

@sidman69you  Doug interview was post on TONE DEF👍

[Ratam]

Sorry@Sidman69 is TONE DEAF☺

[RONIN]

13 hours ago, Sydney Fan said:

Thanks ronin for all of this. So what was the issue with irving azoff. I understand that he is a prick and i know he managed the eagles and don felder had no major good things to say about him.

My impression of the situation there was that he was pushing for a reunion pretty hard which Axl was touchy about. Azoff/Interscope saw the writing was on the wall with nu guns after they missed the 2006 release date for CD - for all intents and purposes, it was over - they had missed their window of opportunity to be relevant commercially. I believe his plan (and probably Interscope's) was to just release CD asap - get that out in the marketplace and cut their losses so that they could focus on the massive reunion payday. That's why they took the best buy deal which would recoup most of the production budget but essentially curb the album's commercial prospects. Not that CD would have done fantastic numbers had it been a Walmart exclusive but it conceivably could have performed better. 

The issue got compounded by Axl expecting a marketing budget/red carpet release for the album befitting of early 90's Axl - the biggest rockstar in the world - not realizing that by 2008, he was irrelevant and very few people cared anymore about another GnR album. There was zero reason for Interscope to throw more money into the project after they lost their asses bankrolling Axl to the tune of 13 million - they knew the album was a flop and all they cared about at that moment was getting any ROI they could. Any reasonable artist/band would probably have seen the situation for what it was and compromised with the label to negotiate a proper release for CD (along with CD2) by giving them a backend reunion commitment. But this is GnR we're talking about. Azoff - no doubt motivated to join this Hindenburg-esque debacle for the remote possibility of a reunion - seized the opportunity.

Once Axl figured out what was going on he went full-Axl and punished them (and himself) by refusing to promote the album which doomed it further. Somewhere in this drama, the videos for the songs on the album were canceled (retaliation from Interscope?) while Axl prolonged the label's agony by waiting an entire year before touring. IIRC the rumor was that the CD tour may have been spurred by litigation from Azoff - Axl had to tour to pay what he owed Azoff. But don't quote me on that - just going off what I vaguely recall here. There was also talk from Axl and Tommy Stinson that the album was forced out of their hands by the record company and that it wasn't finished to their satisfaction(!). I remember some whining from Axl about not getting enough time with the cover art or something. Whatever it was, I think given Axl's MO, there's a really good chance the album would never have seen the light of day if Interscope hadn't pulled it from his hands. 

I imagine Axl probably felt Azoff sold him down the river and aligned with Interscope's interests by dumping CD with little fanfare so that they could get the reunion going asap. Azoff's reputation isn't all that great in the industry and Axl's rep is radioactive so you can bet that both sides played dirty. That being said, it looks like Azoff outmaneuvered Axl here and then washed his hands of the entire thing when he realized that Axl would rather tour a dead album to half empty arenas than make tens of millions reuniting the band and playing stadiums. That was probably Axl's final FU to Azoff and Interscope. Unfortunately for Axl, Interscope said FU by refusing to release any GnR album without Slash (allegedly) - hence, no CD 2. But the thing is, it would appear that Azoff made his money and got out of the Chinese Democracy business in better shape than Axl, Interscope, or any of the previous GnR managers. Most of those guys like Niven, Goldstein and Merck were dragged under the bus from their GnR experience. Not Azoff I'd venture. He seems to be the one and only party that knew exactly who he was dealing with and played the game accordingly. 

More below:

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In late March, when Guns n' Roses' former managers sued Axl Rose over a $1.9 million unpaid tour commission, the band's notoriously cantankerous leader remained uncharacteristically quiet. But today Rose responded to the suit filed by Irving Azoff's Front Line Management with a $5 million countersuit that includes some stunning claims. Rose says that during Azoff's short tenure as Gn'R's manager, Azoff secretly tried to hatch a plan to trick Rose into reuniting with his former Guns n' Roses bandmates for a tour, TMZ reports. According to the Hollywood Reporter, Rose's filing goes on to argue that Azoff — whose management company was acquired by Ticketmaster, who later merged with Live Nation — used his strong influence in the industry to try to "bully" the frontman, and ultimately "resigned and abandoned Guns n' Roses on the eve of a major tour, filing suit for commissions he didn't earn and had no right to receive."

In the countersuit, Rose claims Azoff tried "devising and implementing a secret plan to set up Rose and the [current] band for failure so that Rose would have no choice but to reunite with the original Guns n' Roses' members." As Rolling Stone previously reported, Front Line Management sued Rose — or "William Bill Bailey," as he's named in the initial complaint — for "failing and refusing" to pay Front Line tour commissions from Gn'R's recent treks of Southeast Asia and Canada. The lawsuit came just months after Rose split from Front Line — who the band hired in March 2008 to help broker the exclusive deal with Best Buy to release Chinese Democracy — and replaced Azoff with Kiss manager Doc McGhee.

Chinese Democracy wasn't a big seller, but a tour reuniting Rose with Slash, Duff McKagan and the rest of his former Roses bandmates would have been a blockbuster. Rose's Chinese Democracy trek with his current band has yet to come to the U.S.; the group's Canadian dates launched January 13th with a three-hour marathon of the band's biggest hits.

Rose also claims that Azoff knowingly referred to him as "William Bailey" in the lawsuit to cause him harm because he had told Azoff that the name "carries significant emotional damage from Rose's childhood."

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/axl-rose-says-managers-had-secret-plan-to-reunite-guns-n-roses-20100518

 

 

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And yesterday, when told of Axl's lawsuit, Azoff did it again. In a statement, he said: "On advice of counsel I cannot respond at this time, but will discuss in my upcoming book, My Life With William Bill Bailey." 

http://www.vulture.com/2010/05/hero_manager_gets_sued_trying.html

 

 

Edited April 5, 2018 by RONIN

[RONIN]

12 hours ago, StrangerInThisTown said:

What's this logic behind your statement wtf? Why would that question stop him from getting guests?

I think the point is you have to gauge the guest's comfort level and then ask questions accordingly - and maybe Sid just didn't feel the moment was right to ask such a question or he may not even care enough about the question to ask it. If the guest enjoys their interview and feels they were represented fairly on the show, there's a decent chance they may refer Sid and the show to other VIP guests which would be valuable. They may even come back for a round 2 interview - which would be a better opportunity to ask more pointed questions since there's some trust established between Sid and the guest. The more high profile interviews Sid does, the more his interviews get circulated in other media outlets which leads to further opportunities for the show. It's in his best interest to do interviews the way he's doing them now. Besides, you'd be surprised by how often a seemingly innocent question can backfire with a guest during an interview if they don't know or trust you. It doesn't take much.

Given the caliber of people Sid is interviewing, I think he probably knows what he's doing. 

[sidman69]

22 hours ago, RONIN said:

I think the point is you have to gauge the guest's comfort level and then ask questions accordingly - and maybe Sid just didn't feel the moment was right to ask such a question or he may not even care enough about the question to ask it. If the guest enjoys their interview and feels they were represented fairly on the show, there's a decent chance they may refer Sid and the show to other VIP guests which would be valuable. They may even come back for a round 2 interview - which would be a better opportunity to ask more pointed questions since there's some trust established between Sid and the guest. The more high profile interviews Sid does, the more his interviews get circulated in other media outlets which leads to further opportunities for the show. It's in his best interest to do interviews the way he's doing them now. Besides, you'd be surprised by how often a seemingly innocent question can backfire with a guest during an interview if they don't know or trust you. It doesn't take much.

Given the caliber of people Sid is interviewing, I think he probably knows what he's doing. 

thanks, that basically sums it up. If people want to ask those questions I look forward to their podcasts. We have a lot of discussions off the record which i won't share, but it becomes clear to me what I can and can't ask. 

[Fashionista]

On 4/3/2018 at 2:39 PM, RONIN said:

I think the Doug situation is a bit more complicated as Blackstar touched on earlier. He's someone that has fallen out with nearly everyone within the GnR camp which I think speaks volumes. If you want some insight into how Doug operates, check out Duff's book. 

As for MJ, Slash played with him before '95 - he's on Dangerous which came out in 1991. He also shot a video with MJ for Give in To Me in 1992 when he was on the Illusions tour. If Axl had a huge issue with that, there's no way he would have flown out with Gilby and Teddy Zig Zag to shoot a video with MJ. Slash has also said that this story from Doug was BS. 

But Give In To Me was before the child molestation allegations though. The allegations came out in August 1993 and MJ settled out of court in January 1994, Give In To Me as you said is (June) 1992. Is it not possible that Axl's view of MJ changed when the child molestation stuff came out? Axl was pretty serious about sexual abuse in the early 1990s, I really don't think he'd have liked a guy accused of molesting a boy. Maybe it wasn't THE breaking point in Slash & Axl's relationship, in fact, I doubt it was - but Dougie has mentioned it enough for me to believe that Axl did take issue with Slash playing with MJ in 1995, after MJ was thought of as a child molester by many. Even if Axl didn't FULLY believe it, it was just another thing Slash was doing (from Axl's POV) to piss Axl off that year. 1995 was probably when their arguing turned from bad to ugly anyway. Slash going out playing with someone Axl didn't like surely didn't help matters, you know? I don't believe Dougie in that it broke up the band, but I do believe it upset Axl greatly at the time, enough so that it sticks out in Doug's memory. We're talking about events which are nearly a quarter of a century ago - perhaps in his memory, Axl bitching a hell of a lot in 1995 about Slash playing with MJ has been conflated with the myriad of things that led to them breaking up.

Edited April 7, 2018 by Fashionista

[RONIN]

1 hour ago, Fashionista said:

But Give In To Me was before the child molestation allegations though. The allegations came out in December 1993, Give In To Me as you said is 1992. Is it not possible that Axl's view of MJ changed when the child molestation stuff came out? Axl was pretty serious about sexual abuse in the early 1990s, I really don't think he'd have liked a guy accused of molesting a boy. Maybe it wasn't THE breaking point in Slash & Axl's relationship, in fact, I doubt it was - but Dougie has mentioned it enough for me to believe that Axl did take issue with Slash playing with MJ in 1995, after MJ was thought of as a child molester by many. Even if Axl didn't FULLY believe it, it was just another thing Slash was doing (from Axl's POV) to piss Axl off that year. 1995 was probably when their arguing turned from bad to ugly anyway. Slash going out playing with someone Axl didn't like surely didn't help matters, you know? I don't believe Dougie in that it broke up the band, but I do believe it upset Axl greatly at the time, enough so that it sticks out in Doug's memory. We're talking about events which are nearly a quarter of a century ago - perhaps in his memory, Axl bitching a hell of a lot in 1995 about Slash playing with MJ has been conflated with the myriad of things that led to them breaking up.

Yeah - in a prior post here I came to the same conclusion as you that perhaps this may have been an issue Axl was stewing about privately in '95. Maybe Slash knew nothing about it because Axl didn't directly say anything to him. Anything is possible I suppose. Doug also mentioned in an earlier interview that Axl's insistence to change GnR into a 3-guitar band broke Slash's heart - something that is quite plausible and believable - certainly moreso than the MJ stuff. The thing you have to remember about Doug is that the guy will literally say anything to push his agenda forward. But in-between all the BS, there's kernels of truth and half-truths somewhere in there.

'95 is an interesting year for GnR. I remember Blackstar mentioning to me sometime back that Doug Goldstein's contract was up for renewal by the end of that year. Oddly enough '95 is also the final year that Axl was in the partnership prior to starting nu-guns and demoting Duff and Slash to hired hands (who conceivably wouldn't be able to veto Axl's choice of manager). I wonder if those two events were connected. 

[DieselDaisy]

I remember reading somewhere that Rose was jealous when Slash started playing with Jackson but cannot remember where I read it.  

[Blackstar]

On 4/7/2018 at 4:58 AM, Fashionista said:

But Give In To Me was before the child molestation allegations though. The allegations came out in August 1993 and MJ settled out of court in January 1994, Give In To Me as you said is (June) 1992. Is it not possible that Axl's view of MJ changed when the child molestation stuff came out? Axl was pretty serious about sexual abuse in the early 1990s, I really don't think he'd have liked a guy accused of molesting a boy. Maybe it wasn't THE breaking point in Slash & Axl's relationship, in fact, I doubt it was - but Dougie has mentioned it enough for me to believe that Axl did take issue with Slash playing with MJ in 1995, after MJ was thought of as a child molester by many. Even if Axl didn't FULLY believe it, it was just another thing Slash was doing (from Axl's POV) to piss Axl off that year. 1995 was probably when their arguing turned from bad to ugly anyway. Slash going out playing with someone Axl didn't like surely didn't help matters, you know? I don't believe Dougie in that it broke up the band, but I do believe it upset Axl greatly at the time, enough so that it sticks out in Doug's memory. We're talking about events which are nearly a quarter of a century ago - perhaps in his memory, Axl bitching a hell of a lot in 1995 about Slash playing with MJ has been conflated with the myriad of things that led to them breaking up.

On 4/7/2018 at 6:27 AM, RONIN said:

Yeah - in a prior post here I came to the same conclusion as you that perhaps this may have been an issue Axl was stewing about privately in '95. Maybe Slash knew nothing about it because Axl didn't directly say anything to him. Anything is possible I suppose. Doug also mentioned in an earlier interview that Axl's insistence to change GnR into a 3-guitar band broke Slash's heart - something that is quite plausible and believable - certainly moreso than the MJ stuff. The thing you have to remember about Doug is that the guy will literally say anything to push his agenda forward. But in-between all the BS, there's kernels of truth and half-truths somewhere in there.

'95 is an interesting year for GnR. I remember Blackstar mentioning to me sometime back that Doug Goldstein's contract was up for renewal by the end of that year. Oddly enough '95 is also the final year that Axl was in the partnership prior to starting nu-guns and demoting Duff and Slash to hired hands (who conceivably wouldn't be able to veto Axl's choice of manager). I wonder if those two events were connected. 

There are some other things that puzzle me about the MJ story, besides Axl's speech at the VMAs.

- If the story was all fabricated by Doug, why would he choose to place it in 1992 and not in 1995, which would have made it more believable, since the scandal had become fully public by then and it's closer to the break up? Of course, if Axl did have an issue in 1992, he would still have it in 1995; and he was really sensitive about the child molestation stuff. But Doug doesn't say anything about '95 and insists in claiming that what happened in '92 was the beginning of the band's demise, although, as Slash said in his response, the band stayed together long after that.

- Slash called Doug's allegations bullshit. He didn't totally deny, however, that there might have been "something", but said it was minor and didn't have any effect ("Even if it did piss someone off, it went away quickly").

- Doug says he told Slash to provide him with an excuse for doing the MJ video, like the money he would make from it, so that he would be able to "sell" it to Axl; but he couldn't "sell" it because all Slash would get was a TV. If it was such an important issue for Axl, though, would it matter if Slash was paid?

- There was no reaction from Axl's camp when Doug first made these claims. I don't mean direct reaction, because I don't think Axl will ever talk publicly about stuff like that again; but he could have someone renounce the claims indirectly and unofficially.

I think - just a theory - that it may have been partly a retrospective thing. Axl may have taken issue with that in 1992, but not anything too big, since there were only rumours about MJ and the band was on tour. There is a 1992 quote from Axl (in the interview where he talked about the idea of his solo project with Navarro etc)  saying how happy he was that Slash played with other people.

Forward to '95: The lack of communication between them is complete and their relationship is very bad due to the known issues (Paul Tobias, Snakepit, etc.). Slash has made a solo album and then he plays with MJ again, appearing with him on live TV. Axl sees it as Slash trying to build a career for himself outside GnR, so that he won't need him anymore. And that with MJ, both a huge star (*) and someone who has been accused of something which Axl is very sensitive about. At that point and later, when Slash left, it's possible that Axl reviewed in his mind what happened in '92 and saw it as part of a plan Slash already had; i.e. he projected '95 to '92 including Slash ignoring his sensitivities.

(*) Also in reference to this:

On 4/4/2018 at 10:22 PM, RONIN said:

If Axl had an issue with MJ, I'd guess he may have felt that associating GnR with the gloved one would have undermined their street cred. But playing with Elton John on a 10 minute ballad with background singers in the midst of grunge probably did way more damage on that front. Or it could have been that he resented Slash for giving away a riff to MJ - this seems a bit more plausible. Axl was not enthusiastic about Slash playing with artists outside of their little rock bubble - and he didn't like Slash doing solo projects since he felt that material belonged to GnR.

I don't think Axl's problem was that MJ wasn't rock, but that he was an artist of such big caliber and popularity, plus the allegations. Axl was never shy about his admiration and affinity for MJ and other pop artists (George Michael, Pet Shop Boys etc. - he even said he listened to Bananarama ). One of his two favourite songs for 1988 was by MJ.

On 4/7/2018 at 6:27 AM, RONIN said:

 Doug also mentioned in an earlier interview that Axl's insistence to change GnR into a 3-guitar band broke Slash's heart - something that is quite plausible and believable - certainly moreso than the MJ stuff. The thing you have to remember about Doug is that the guy will literally say anything to push his agenda forward. But in-between all the BS, there's kernels of truth and half-truths somewhere in there.

I have doubts that the three guitar band idea dates from back then. Not only because Slash has never mentioned it, but also because Doug contradicts himself about this one too: he says he told Slash and Duff to find another guitarist instead of Paul Tobias and that if they had done that, the problem would have been solved; so the only issue in the guitar department was Tobias. I think it's not too far-fetched to assume that Zakk Wylde may have been brought in by Doug. Didn't Doug say that he was managing Zakk at the time?

Moreover, when Axl started NuGnR, it was a two guitar band. And that band wrote and recorded a lot of material (plus Axl recording vocals). It doesn't seem to me that Axl intended to make it a 3-guitar band before Buckethead came in and then Finck came back.

Edited April 9, 2018 by Blackstar

[Jw224]

I don't really understand why you guys here give this guy any credibility. He clearly just makes stuff up to keep his name relevant. 

[sidman69]

On 4/5/2018 at 3:27 PM, lit_up said:

Nice interview, you did a great work as usual 

Thanks we've still got a few interviews up our sleeves. 

[Fashionista]

On 4/6/2018 at 11:27 PM, RONIN said:

Yeah - in a prior post here I came to the same conclusion as you that perhaps this may have been an issue Axl was stewing about privately in '95. Maybe Slash knew nothing about it because Axl didn't directly say anything to him. Anything is possible I suppose. Doug also mentioned in an earlier interview that Axl's insistence to change GnR into a 3-guitar band broke Slash's heart - something that is quite plausible and believable - certainly moreso than the MJ stuff. The thing you have to remember about Doug is that the guy will literally say anything to push his agenda forward. But in-between all the BS, there's kernels of truth and half-truths somewhere in there.

'95 is an interesting year for GnR. I remember Blackstar mentioning to me sometime back that Doug Goldstein's contract was up for renewal by the end of that year. Oddly enough '95 is also the final year that Axl was in the partnership prior to starting nu-guns and demoting Duff and Slash to hired hands (who conceivably wouldn't be able to veto Axl's choice of manager). I wonder if those two events were connected. 

Yeah he could've been stewing angrily every single day in 1995 about it to Dougie and Axl and Slash may never have known. It seems to me by 95 Dougie probably knew which way the wind was blowing and was probably closer to Axl than Slash by this point.

I also believe that though. Axl was trying to push Slash and Zakk with Paul in 95 and while it might not have broken Slash's heart - that's a bit melodramatic - it probably did hurt and did turn him off. Like, what, I'm not good enough? You have to bring Zakk Wylde in to compete with me? You bring in this bedroom guitar player and I'm supposed to treat him as my equal? 

Go back through interviews. In 1994 Slash is relatively quiet. In 1995 he explodes to the press. He says in one interview that Axl thinks GN'R is his solo project. Another one he talks about how Axl has lead singer syndrome. Another one how Axl wants to jump on every new trend and do MTV Unplugged and how Axl turned down his idea of a club tour for TSI. In 1995, Slash becomes VERY vocal about how unhappy he is. You also have Izzy wavering in and out of working with the band, which is something else I find interesting.

1995 is the year that broke GN'R. What's funny, that you mention that (Doug's contract being up for renewal on 12/31/1995) is that Axl's contract demoting Slash and Duff went into effect on 12/31/1995. I have to imagine that yeah, Doug probably pushed Axl to invoke the name clause of the 1992 contract to protect himself. He may have seen that Duff and Slash didn't like him and would want him gone. In a GN'R partnership with Axl, Slash and Duff as equal partners, Dougie would be gone at the end of 95...But with a new GNR partnership consisting only of Axl...He was safe. Axl fired off that memo announcing the coming end of the partnership at the end of August 1995. I wonder what set it off.

Slash didn't quit until October 1996, and Duff didn't quit until 97, and there were recording sessions between 96 and 97 but for me GN'R is over on January 1st 1996, the day Axl's contract goes into effect. The band of brothers fully ceases to be and is now Axl's show with him trying to get Slash and Duff on board.

Edited April 9, 2018 by Fashionista

[RONIN]

On 4/7/2018 at 7:07 PM, Blackstar said:

There are some other things that puzzle me about the MJ story, besides Axl's speech at the VMAs.

- If the story was all fabricated by Doug, why would he choose to place it in 1992 and not in 1995, which would have made it more believable, since the scandal had become fully public by then and it's closer to the break up? Of course, if Axl did have an issue in 1992, he would still have it in 1995; and he was really sensitive about the child molestation stuff. But Doug doesn't say anything about '95 and insists in claiming that what happened in '92 was the beginning of the band's demise, although, as Slash said in his response, the band stayed together long after that.

I didn't catch the 1992 part - huh. Fascinating. As per the timeline, in '92 right around the time of the Paris gig (June) is when Slash filmed the Give in to Me music video w/ MJ in Germany iirc. So as per Doug, whatever issue there was w/ MJ would have arisen at this point. '92 is at the height of Axl's megalomania/public meltdown so I suppose anything is possible. I guess this would put Axl's really odd MJ comment at the VMA's into context since the VMA's took place 3 months afterwards. Around this time Slash was also making cameo appearances on the Dangerous tour. I think he even showed up for an MJ gig around the time of the 92 VMA's. 

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- Slash called Doug's allegations bullshit. He didn't totally deny, however, that there might have been "something", but said it was minor and didn't have any effect ("Even if it did piss someone off, it went away quickly").

Exactly. Nice catch there. The plot thickens.#GnRCSI

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- Doug says he told Slash to provide him with an excuse for doing the MJ video, like the money he would make from it, so that he would be able to "sell" it to Axl; but he couldn't "sell" it because all Slash would get was a TV. If it was such an important issue for Axl, though, would it matter if Slash was paid?

This is probably bullshit imho. You know what this sounds like? Ol' Dougie may have been a tad miffed that he was cut out of the deal making process for this. He probably hoped to make a quick payday negotiating Slash's fee for guesting on Dangerous. 

Besides - why would he need to sell Axl on anything having to do with MJ in 1990-early '91 when the Dangerous sessions were going down? Makes zero sense. The band were ostensibly waiting for Axl to finish his work on Illusions around this time period - there was plenty of downtime to do other stuff in the meantime. 

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- There was no reaction from Axl's camp when Doug first made these claims. I don't mean direct reaction, because I don't think Axl will ever talk publicly about stuff like that again; but he could have had someone renounce the claims indirectly and unofficially.

Agreed. But there's plenty of obvious BS others have said that he hasn't refuted either so I don't know if that necessarily helps Doug's case. Generally Axl or his proxies only emerge once in awhile to tackle a Slash comment publicly. He's been pretty silent about Doug in general. I'm not sure what went down there between them, but TB/Axl seem to have zero interest in him. Even Niven is relevant enough to get an occasional jab from Team Axl unlike Doug.  

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I think - just a theory - that it may have been partly a retrospective thing. Axl may have taken issue with that in 1992, but not anything too big, since there were only rumours about MJ and the band was on tour. There is a 1992 quote from Axl (in the interview where he talked about the idea of his solo project with Navarro etc)  saying how happy he was that Slash played with other people.

Agreed. It reminds me of that quote from Matt Sorum about how Axl was smart about having GnR team up with other big acts like Queen or guesting briefly at a U2 concert - these associations made the band larger than life. It was an intentional effort on Axl's part to turn GnR into a supergroup. Well, who was bigger than MJ in the 90's? Slash playing with MJ would fit perfectly into Axl's greater goals for the band. 

If there were any mixed feelings in '92, I suspect Axl probably kept it private or briefly voiced it to Doug who probably blew it out of proportion later to drive a rift between the two. 

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Forward to '95: The lack of communication between them is complete and their relationship is very bad due to the known issues (Paul Tobias, Snakepit, etc.). Slash has made a solo album and then he plays with MJ again, appearing with him on live TV. Axl sees it as Slash trying to build a career for himself outside GnR, so that he won't need him anymore. And that with MJ, both a huge star (*) and someone who has been accused of something which Axl is very sensitive about. At that point and later, when Slash left, it's possible that Axl reviewed in his mind what happened in '92 and saw it as part of a plan Slash already had; i.e. he projected '95 to '92 including Slash ignoring his sensitivities.

A plausible scenario. The band is on its last legs and Slash is off touring snakepit and playing with MJ. It's not really a secret that Axl was threatened by Slash's budding solo career in '95. I've always suspected that him leaving the partnership was a power move in retaliation to Slash going solo w/ Snakepit. A way to checkmate Slash's creative/legal power in the band and also put limits on his solo career. Didn't Bumblefoot gripe about his solo career taking a hit because of GnR management putting restrictions on him?

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(*) Also in reference to this:

I don't think Axl's problem was that MJ wasn't rock, but that he was an artist of such big caliber and popularity, plus the allegations. Axl was never shy about his admiration and affinity for MJ and other pop artists (George Michael, Pet Shop Boys etc. - he even said he listened to Bananarama ). One of his two favourite songs for 1988 was by MJ.

 

Very good point. I forgot he was a fan of George Michael around that time. 

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I have doubts that the three guitar band idea dates from back then. Not only because Slash has never mentioned it, but also because Doug contradicts himself about this one too: he says he told Slash and Duff to find another guitarist instead of Paul Tobias and that if they had done that, the problem would have been solved; so the only issue in the guitar department was Tobias. I think it's not too far-fetched to assume that Zakk Wylde may have been brought in by Doug. Didn't Doug say that he was managing Zakk at the time?

Not sure on the connection between Doug and Zakk but essentially what Doug alleged was that Axl wanted Slash to give up solos and share them with guys like Zakk and Dave Navarro. The '95/'96 album, from what we know, was at one time going to feature a lot of cameos from big musicians (Axl's material anyway) so Doug's assertion here does sort of line up with what we know of this time.

I could imagine Slash thinking the entire thing was outrageous and an insult given what a huge star he was back then. Maybe Doug is getting the timeline wrong and conflating these guest players with Axl's 3 guitar idea...that's how I interpreted that comment of his.

Going off on a slight tangent here, from what Marc Canter has said, in his opinion, the rhythm guitar situation was the biggest sore point between Axl/Slash and was the straw that broke the camel's back. Doug is alleging that Slash didn't bring any names to the table to take Izzy/Gilby's spot and iirc Axl has said something similar, that Paul was just there to help facilitate things until Slash found Gilby's replacement - which as per Axl, Slash didn't take the initiative to do.  

This is pretty hard to believe given that Slash/Duff have a history of being proactive finding replacements. They found Sorum. Slash was the guy who brought Gilby into the picture to replace Izzy after trying fruitlessly to meet Dave Navarro. I think it's reasonable to assume that Axl (and Doug) were blocking Izzy/Gilby from returning and were also shooting down replacement choices that Duff/Slash were presenting. This would line up with their assertions that whatever ideas they were presenting were out right rejected during '94-'96.

In '96, Slash is even backtracking in interviews and talking about how his chemistry with Izzy was natural and effortless and that their playing styles complemented each other. Could there have been a desperate last ditch attempt from Slash in late '96 to bring Izzy back and eject Paul that was blocked by Axl? That could even add context to Marc Canter's comment about Izzy having 50 songs and intending to join the Fall '96 sessions. Could it be that Marc wasn't mistaken with this comment? It would certainly line up with what many of us already suspect - that the rhythm guitarist choice was a power play to keep one of Axl's guys in the band to counterbalance Duff/Slash.  And that power dynamic hasn't shifted even with the reunion.

Quote

Moreover, when Axl started NuGnR, it was a two guitar band. And that band wrote and recorded a lot of material (plus Axl recording vocals). It doesn't seem to me that Axl intended to make it a 3-guitar band before Buckethead coming in and then Finck coming back.

Agreed that does seem to make the most sense. 

But wasn't Zakk intended originally as an Izzy replacement? Tobias is already in the picture playing with the shadow band around this time in early '95. If Axl was intending for Zakk to potentially join the band (which was the plan as per Zakk) and he still wanted to keep Paul around - that would make it a 3 guitar setup there. The genesis of the 3-guitarist idea could have germinated in '95 potentially. It's a stretch but that's the only theory that would support what Doug's alleging.

I suspect GnR became a 3-guitar band because Axl had an emotional attachment to Finck's work but was dazzled by Buckethead and he wanted both of those guys in the band - he couldn't choose one over the other. The rumor was that Bucket came into Nu-Guns thinking he was going to be the only lead guitarist and felt betrayed that Finck was allowed to rejoin with a co-lead spot. It would seem that GnR became a 3-guitar band as a necessity to accommodate both of Axl's muses. 

Edited April 10, 2018 by RONIN

[RONIN]

5 hours ago, Fashionista said:

Yeah he could've been stewing angrily every single day in 1995 about it to Dougie and Axl and Slash may never have known. It seems to me by 95 Dougie probably knew which way the wind was blowing and was probably closer to Axl than Slash by this point.
 

Doug probably knew which way the wind was blowing even prior to Adler getting fired in '90 if you ask me. He's a sharp guy - he chose which horse he was backing the minute he saw the escalating tension between Axl and Niven in '89.

 

Quote

I also believe that though. Axl was trying to push Slash and Zakk with Paul in 95 and while it might not have broken Slash's heart - that's a bit melodramatic - it probably did hurt and did turn him off. Like, what, I'm not good enough? You have to bring Zakk Wylde in to compete with me? You bring in this bedroom guitar player and I'm supposed to treat him as my equal? 

Yep. The rhythm guitarist issue is believed to be the primary reason (of many potential reasons) for why Slash left the band.

What Axl was doing would be analogous to Slash arranging sessions for Chris Cornell to drop in and sing with the band as a potential co-lead singer w/ Axl. Just a pointless and misguided idea - another one of those "what was he thinking??" moments for this band. 

 

Quote

Go back through interviews. In 1994 Slash is relatively quiet. In 1995 he explodes to the press. He says in one interview that Axl thinks GN'R is his solo project. Another one he talks about how Axl has lead singer syndrome. Another one how Axl wants to jump on every new trend and do MTV Unplugged and how Axl turned down his idea of a club tour for TSI. In 1995, Slash becomes VERY vocal about how unhappy he is. You also have Izzy wavering in and out of working with the band, which is something else I find interesting.

Simple reason for the press griping in '95: Paul Huge. He's also presented with the infamous nu-guns contract in spring/summer '95 iirc. 

I think it's quite plausible that Izzy's return was blocked by Axl. I suspect Slash was flirting with the idea in mid '95 and then probably seriously considered it in '96 when the band was on life support but by then it was too late and things had spiraled too far out of control.
 

Quote

1995 is the year that broke GN'R. What's funny, that you mention that (Doug's contract being up for renewal on 12/31/1995) is that Axl's contract demoting Slash and Duff went into effect on 12/31/1995. I have to imagine that yeah, Doug probably pushed Axl to invoke the name clause of the 1992 contract to protect himself. He may have seen that Duff and Slash didn't like him and would want him gone. In a GN'R partnership with Axl, Slash and Duff as equal partners, Dougie would be gone at the end of 95...But with a new GNR partnership consisting only of Axl...He was safe. Axl fired off that memo announcing the coming end of the partnership at the end of August 1995. I wonder what set it off.

Probably masterminded by Doug and Axl's lawyers. The record company was also on Axl's side - miscalculating foolishly that helping him consolidate power in the band would lead to an album coming out faster - that was their hedge against the band breaking up. David Geffen also ends his term around this time - there's a management shakeup with the record company which probably made it easier to push the new agenda through.

Needless to say the GnR entourage/hangers-on all saw a massive upside to the power vacuum with Duff/Slash demoted or potentially gone. Team Brazil, Del James, and Doug's influence on Axl would be that much more magnified with Duff/Slash removed from the band's decision making process. Blocking Izzy from returning would also help them secure their place in Axl's life. 

All these people from Paul to Del and Doug had goals that were in alignment during this time and they would have faced more scrutiny with Slash/Duff in the picture. I think Axl intended to take full control of the band legally once he lost control of the Snakepit material but the hangers-on probably inflamed a really bad situation and pushed him further over the edge. With them filtering everything that was reaching his ears it's no wonder that everything imploded soon after.
 

Quote

Slash didn't quit until October 1996, and Duff didn't quit until 97, and there were recording sessions between 96 and 97 but for me GN'R is over on January 1st 1996, the day Axl's contract goes into effect. The band of brothers fully ceases to be and is now Axl's show with him trying to get Slash and Duff on board.

 

I'd even say that the band is over in Spring '94 when Axl rejects the snakepit material. Slash's decision to go solo basically cements the end of the band and serves as a catalyst for Axl leaving the partnership. The Sympathy for the Devil sessions in late '94 is a dying band's last gasp. Everything afterwards was simply prolonging the inevitable imho. 

"In late 1994, Axl called and we talked about plans for the band, trying to figure out what to do. The conversation went on for more than an hour. We started to talk about GN’R’s accomplishments - something that none of us had ever acknowledged or discussed together prior to this...

It took getting sober and contemplative about the whole situation, but now it struck me as sad that we hadn’t stood face-to-face and congratulated one another - alone, without management or minions around. At this point, it would have been just Axl, Slash, and me, but there would still have been value in doing it...

Axl was definitely behind the idea, but I never set up any kind of meeting. 
Somehow it was already too late." 
(Duff, autobiography)

Edited April 10, 2018 by RONIN

[Blackstar]

50 minutes ago, RONIN said:

This is probably bullshit imho. You know what this sounds like? Ol' Dougie may have been a tad miffed that he was cut out of the deal making process for this. He probably hoped to make a quick payday negotiating Slash's fee for guesting on Dangerous. 

Besides - why would he need to sell Axl on anything having to do with MJ in 1990-early '91 when the Dangerous sessions were going down? Makes zero sense. The band were ostensibly waiting for Axl to finish his work on Illusions around this time period - there was plenty of downtime to do other stuff in the meantime. 

My understanding is that Doug is talking about the Give It To Me video in '92, not the Dangerous sessions. I'll have to check it again.

54 minutes ago, RONIN said:

Agreed. But there's plenty of obvious BS others have said that he hasn't refuted either so I don't know if that necessarily helps Doug's case. Generally Axl or his proxies only emerge once in awhile to tackle a Slash comment publicly. He's been pretty silent about Doug in general. I'm not sure what went down there between them, but TB/Axl seem to have zero interest in him. Even Niven is relevant enough to get an occasional jab from Team Axl unlike Doug.  

Well, publicising that embarrassing letter was quite a jab, wasn't it?

The reason I pointed out the lack of reaction from Axl's camp was the timing of Doug's MJ claims. It was April 2015, the reunion was at works and Axl had already talked to Slash on the phone. Doug says that after the interview Axl's lawyer called him telling him he wasn't entitled to speak on behalf of Axl and to shut his mouth, then Axl called him and told him to stop talking because he was "trying to repair a past relationship". Maybe the part in quotes is made up by Doug, but anyway, it doesn't change the fact that at that fragile point it was important to not put the negotiations at risk by letting rumours and claims like that floating around.

I agree with the rest about the MJ story.

 

[Blackstar]

15 hours ago, RONIN said:

Not sure on the connection between Doug and Zakk but essentially what Doug alleged was that Axl wanted Slash to give up solos and share them with guys like Zakk and Dave Navarro. The '95/'96 album, from what we know, was at one time going to feature a lot of cameos from big musicians (Axl's material anyway) so Doug's assertion here does sort of line up with what we know of this time.

I could imagine Slash thinking the entire thing was outrageous and an insult given what a huge star he was back then. Maybe Doug is getting the timeline wrong and conflating these guest players with Axl's 3 guitar idea...that's how I interpreted that comment of his.

...

But wasn't Zakk intended originally as an Izzy replacement? Tobias is already in the picture playing with the shadow band around this time in early '95. If Axl was intending for Zakk to potentially join the band (which was the plan as per Zakk) and he still wanted to keep Paul around - that would make it a 3 guitar setup there. The genesis of the 3-guitarist idea could have germinated in '95 potentially. It's a stretch but that's the only theory that would support what Doug's alleging.

Yes, Doug maybe merged the later 3 guitars idea with the guest players one in '96. Or with the Zakk Wylde sessions because Paul Tobias was still there, but from Slash's words and other indicators it doesn't look like Axl wanted to have both of them in the band officially.

I think Slash wouldn't mind the guest guitars idea alone that much, because it would be an one-off thing after all. But Axl's insistence to pair him with another lead guitarist certainly hurt his feelings and ego.

It seems that the idea had stuck in Axl's head since Izzy left. He had somehow seen it as a key factor for updating the band's sound and at the same time as an equivalent to the Slash-Izzy interplay on AFD. He didn't want two lead guitars to play the "same" thing, the dual guitar harmonies other bands with two leads had, but to "battle" each other. That's why he wanted Navarro, a guitarist whose style is very different from Slash's. Zakk Wylde, whose style is not as much different, was probably a "let's see how it goes" thing (Axl didn't insist on keeping him - he agree it didn't work) as it was easy to bring him there for some jams since Doug was his manager and he was on Geffen. Tobias couldn't play that role. Doug says Axl knew he didn't sound and look good. Axl probably wanted him there as part of a shadow lineup.

I came across an excerpt of a Gilby interview. I couldn't find the source of it, must be a 1999-ish article.

Adds Clarke: “I told Axl that I thought Slash and I played really well together, and Axl says: ‘I completely agree -- but that's not what I want. I want two guitar players that don't play good together.’ I thought that was very strange."

Poor Gilby

Axl, Detroit radio interview, 2002:

Axl: When we did our first show in Vegas, Robin and Buckethead didn’t know each other at all. You’ve got two lead guitar players trying to kill each other ... with their abilities. It’s like when I tried to bring Slash and Zakk together; that didn’t go well.

-Oh really? Did you try to bring Zakk and Slash together?

Axl: It was fun to watch. It was, you know, like watching a giant snake with a tyrannosaurus rex. It was pretty exciting, I mean we had a good time, I don’t know if they did.

-When was this?

Axl: That was about... ’95.

-Is that right? Do they ever talk now or they... you don’t know?

Axl: I think they can be cordial to each other, that whole kind of thing. But when they’re actually playing, you know, it gets that alpha male thing going: who is the real lead guitar player.

Axl, spinner.com, 2009:

-Why didn't you write 'Appetite'-style songs yourself then?

Axl: Part of what destroyed Guns was the battle between those guitars that works so well for 'Appetite.' I have no concept how to duplicate that with either the old guys or anyone else. I liked it then but can't say I truly understood their nature as I feel I do now.

Both times Axl tried to do it, it blew.

 

15 hours ago, RONIN said:

Going off on a slight tangent here, from what Marc Canter has said, in his opinion, the rhythm guitar situation was the biggest sore point between Axl/Slash and was the straw that broke the camel's back. Doug is alleging that Slash didn't bring any names to the table to take Izzy/Gilby's spot and iirc Axl has said something similar, that Paul was just there to help facilitate things until Slash found Gilby's replacement - which as per Axl, Slash didn't take the initiative to do.  

This is pretty hard to believe given that Slash/Duff have a history of being proactive finding replacements. They found Sorum. Slash was the guy who brought Gilby into the picture to replace Izzy after trying fruitlessly to meet Dave Navarro. I think it's reasonable to assume that Axl (and Doug) were blocking Izzy/Gilby from returning and were also shooting down replacement choices that Duff/Slash were presenting. This would line up with their assertions that whatever ideas they were presenting were out right rejected during '94-'96.

In '96, Slash is even backtracking in interviews and talking about how his chemistry with Izzy was natural and effortless and that their playing styles complemented each other. Could there have been a desperate last ditch attempt from Slash in late '96 to bring Izzy back and eject Paul that was blocked by Axl? That could even add context to Marc Canter's comment about Izzy having 50 songs and intending to join the Fall '96 sessions. Could it be that Marc wasn't mistaken with this comment? It would certainly line up with what many of us already suspect - that the rhythm guitarist choice was a power play to keep one of Axl's guys in the band to counterbalance Duff/Slash.  And that power dynamic hasn't shifted even with the reunion.

About Slash finding a guitarist, let's not forget that he was preoccupied with recording and then touring Snakepit most of that time.

He said in this interview (conducted in August '96 - published in November '96) that he had found someone:

“I just want us to make a simple, kick-ass hard rock record,” says Slash. “Axl’s playing guitar now, so I have to deal with that. There’s also another guitarist, who I don’t want to work with.” This will be Paul Huge, Gilby Clarke’s replacement, who was recruited by Rose.

“This whole thing started because of him", nods Slash. “But there’s someone I do wanna work with.”

Who?

“I don’t wanna say at this point.”

Izzy Stradlin?

“No. Well, Izzy was an idea, but there’s a guitar player I worked with who was in Alice Cooper’s band. He’s really good.”

In his autobiography he said he suggested to get Gilby back and Axl denied. Then he says he didn't suggest anyone because of the circumstances:

I brought up the option of rehiring Gilby, and that idea was flatly rejected. There were endless messages sent back and forth, through Doug Goldstein, about Axl’s wants, needs, and ideas on what we should be doing. The only way that I regularly “talked” to Axl was through Doug at that point.

[...]

What we were supposed to be doing was simple: hire a new guitar player and make a new album. But the whole process was dictated by Axl, and although I know he wanted input from me, I was suffocated by the tension and I couldn’t think straight.  [Slash, autobiography]

 

------

About Izzy: Like I said the other time we discussed this, I really don't think Izzy's return was blocked, because his returning in full mode never came to the point to be an issue. In 1995 he went to Axl's house, then jammed with Duff for a couple of weeks and then left. Izzy's take on why he left is that he was put off by a phone conversation with Axl, because Axl was taking or reading notes and unearthing things that had happened 15 years ago. Imo Izzy was discouraged by the climate in the band, given that his experience with it was recent and he didn't want to be involved with that mess.

Slash probably made an attempt to bring Izzy back a little before the end, when they met at an Alice Cooper show in June '96. In August, when he did that interview, he said he hadn't heard fron Izzy since. I'm still inclined to think that Marc's memory deceives him and he gets the timing of the Izzy sessions wrong. But if it doesn't deceive him, the most plausible scenario imo is that Izzy had told Slash in June that he would come back, but he didn't. That's why Slash said in the interview that Izzy was an idea, but he had this other guitarist. And he most likely didn't come to the point to introduce him to Axl because it was too late.

------

As for the reunion and the current situation, I think it's not quite the same. There are many factors, like loyalty. But I think it's mostly that what was done in the past 20 years can't be easily undone. A person with an average ego drive - let alone someone like Axl - wouldn't just delete what they strove for all those years, even if they have thought to themselves that it might have been a mistake. Slash and Duff have just been realistic about it, they set their terms and they got what they wanted under these circumstances; they're satisfied financially, they have their own management and a say on most levels, there has been no drama during the tour and it seems they've been all getting along pretty well. GnR is only a touring act now anyway, unless that changes in the future. Slash has been promoting SMKC all this time in his social media (which means he planned to go back there after the tour), Axl is likely doing something with ACDC (I wonder what he would do if ACDC hadn't happened - probably nothing) and Duff will be doing his own thing, whatever that is.

 

Edited April 10, 2018 by Blackstar

[Sydney Fan]

I love reading the above^^^^ 

Im so hoping sidman and gambit can get sorum on their show. Sorum mightnt have been involved in the axl slash doug conversations but poor slash must have been bitching to sorum because there was no-one else in the band slash could talk to about how he was feeling.

Im sure slash would have felt so unhappy if axl couldnt articulate how the next record would sound. If axl couldnt articulate how the next record was going to be in his mind then whats the point of having a third guirar player. Slash just needed another guitar player to help with certain ideas from vibing off their playing. The only guitar player that had an izzy style of playing was gilby. I also think slash trying to get izzy back may have been a last ditch effort to bring some musical direction for the band and from one indiana friend to another help axl communicate with everyone in the band again like the early days which by 94-95 is where it all went wrong....they couldnt communicate anymore.

If slash couldnt find a player like izzy or gilby where can he go to from there?. Axl should have left the second guitar player to slash to find. Slashs found gilby and sorum a good fit and axl should have trusted slashs instincts on a second guitar player for the band.

Edited April 10, 2018 by Sydney Fan

[default_]

8 hours ago, Blackstar said:

“No. Well, Izzy was an idea, but there’s a guitar player I worked with who was in Alice Cooper’s band. He’s really good.”

Just to point out that the mysterious guitarrist was probably Ryan Roxy, who'd latter be in Snakepit.

As far as I remember there is a interview where Slash says he wanted to work with him for quite a while at the time.

Edited April 10, 2018 by default_

[BOSSY78]

On 4/4/2018 at 3:22 PM, RONIN said:

Is Axl saying random things in a public forum that much of a stretch?  

Doug is playing fast and loose with the facts since he alleged (and then slightly walked back) that Axl and Slash fractured their relationship in part because Slash played with an alleged child molester despite knowing Axl's past. Regardless of the dates not corroborating that theory - you also have Slash coming out and calling this theory BS along with Axl listing MJ as one of his favorite singers. Only other thing I can think of here would be that post-93 allegations, this becomes a sticking point for Axl which I suppose may be possible. But if the rumors about Axl's reaction to Kurt Cobain's death have any basis in reality, it's not a stretch to imagine he may have seen MJ as a kindred spirit. They were both high profile tortured artists who were getting hounded and torn apart by the press all throughout the early-mid 90's. Doug's theory just seems hard to believe.

If Axl had an issue with MJ, I'd guess he may have felt that associating GnR with the gloved one would have undermined their street cred. But playing with Elton John on a 10 minute ballad with background singers in the midst of grunge probably did way more damage on that front. Or it could have been that he resented Slash for giving away a riff to MJ - this seems a bit more plausible. Axl was not enthusiastic about Slash playing with artists outside of their little rock bubble - and he didn't like Slash doing solo projects since he felt that material belonged to GnR.

Good points. I also want to add the recent story about Axl not liking David Lee Roth's reaction to "tragic death".

I don't think it was what tore the band apart but I think it's plausible Axl like many Jackson fans went back and forth on rather he was innocent or not. I also think it's plausible that he was upset at Slash for playing with him at the time. 

I honestly know many people who love MJ's music but think he was guilty. 

As far as Slash saying it's not true I don't think he can say rather Axl has ever expressed displeasure to others at his playing with MJ. I doubt it's why they split up though. I think that Doug may be exaggerating it a bit much there.

Either way I stopped taking Slash completely at face value when he claimed he never went to Axl's and later said he did. 

As far as Doug goes he's no different from Alan Niven. Both of which tell some truth and much exaggeration to make them look better.

I want to add that if the whole Cobain story recently is true it goes to show. Axl once had issues with him but his death still affected him. I'm sure Axl had negative feelings towards him before much like he may have Jackson if the story is true on that end too.

 

Edited April 11, 2018 by BOSSY78
Added

[BOSSY78]

20 hours ago, Sydney Fan said:

I love reading the above^^^^ 

Im so hoping sidman and gambit can get sorum on their show. Sorum mightnt have been involved in the axl slash doug conversations but poor slash must have been bitching to sorum because there was no-one else in the band slash could talk to about how he was feeling.

Im sure slash would have felt so unhappy if axl couldnt articulate how the next record would sound. If axl couldnt articulate how the next record was going to be in his mind then whats the point of having a third guirar player. Slash just needed another guitar player to help with certain ideas from vibing off their playing. The only guitar player that had an izzy style of playing was gilby. I also think slash trying to get izzy back may have been a last ditch effort to bring some musical direction for the band and from one indiana friend to another help axl communicate with everyone in the band again like the early days which by 94-95 is where it all went wrong....they couldnt communicate anymore.

If slash couldnt find a player like izzy or gilby where can he go to from there?. Axl should have left the second guitar player to slash to find. Slashs found gilby and sorum a good fit and axl should have trusted slashs instincts on a second guitar player for the band.

From Slashs own comments in his book it seems Axl wanted his input on finding a second guitar player. 

I think it's just as important that Axl be in the decision as Slash.

Axl wrote music and he also sings it. While Slash needs someone who conpliments him and who he feels fits Axl also needs to be able to feed off them both and feel a fit. 

Singers generally add feeling and emotion and to get that the music is very important. I like to think of it at times as a muse.

It reminds me of how they would come up with the music and Axl would start singing. If he was writing the lyrics he would be looking for music that fits the mood and or emotion he is trying to convey. They would be like a muse.

Before amyone goes on a tangent I'm aware Axl didn't write every lyric for the band. He was however, a major contributor lyrically and even more so once Izzy left.

 

[Sydney Fan]

59 minutes ago, BOSSY78 said:

From Slashs own comments in his book it seems Axl wanted his input on finding a second guitar player. 

I think it's just as important that Axl be in the decision as Slash.

Axl wrote music and he also sings it. While Slash needs someone who conpliments him and who he feels fits Axl also needs to be able to feed off them both and feel a fit. 

Singers generally add feeling and emotion and to get that the music is very important. I like to think of it at times as a muse.

It reminds me of how they would come up with the music and Axl would start singing. If he was writing the lyrics he would be looking for music that fits the mood and or emotion he is trying to convey. They would be like a muse.

Before amyone goes on a tangent I'm aware Axl didn't write every lyric for the band. He was however, a major contributor lyrically and even more so once Izzy left.

 

I agree with certain parts. Axl may not have cared about gilby as he was practically a touring replacement for izzy. But axl certainly didnt care to much about having an  input into who the replacement for steven should be especially after the whole syeven court drama, again that was left on slashs shoulders and the difference is matt had to record except civil war,  the rest of the songs for the illusion albums so he had to do alot more than gilby. I wonder if the first  time axl  met matt was when they were doing band photos for the album!!. Slash dizzy matt and izzy where the only ones who recorded in the studio together at the same time for the illusion recordings. Correct me if im wrong Axl was never present until the music was recorded and then lay his vocals over.

Edited April 11, 2018 by Sydney Fan

[Blackstar]

4 minutes ago, Sydney Fan said:

I wonder if the first  time axl  met matt was when they were doing band photos for the album!!. Slash dizzy matt and izzy where the only ones who recorded in the studio together at the same time for the illusion recordings. Correct me if im wrong Axl was never present until the music was recorded and then lay his vocals over.

Matt has said that Axl showed him how he wanted him to play the piano epics.

There is also a story of Matt visiting Axl's house with Lars Ulrich ~1990.

[BOSSY78]

7 minutes ago, Sydney Fan said:

I agree with certain parts. Axl may not have cared about gilby as he was practically a touring replacement for izzy. But axl certainly didnt care to much about having an  input into who the replacement for steven should be especially after the whole syeven court drama, again that was left on slashs shoulders and the difference is matt had to record except civil war,  the rest of the songs for the illusion albums so he had to do alot more than gilby. I wonder if the first  time axl  met matt was when they were doing band photos for the album!!. Slash dizzy matt and izzy where the only ones who recorded in the studio together at the same time for the illusion recordings. Correct me if im wrong Axl was never present until the music was recorded and then lay his vocals over.

I hate to say this but I don't think an artist's muse for lack of a better word is the drummer.

Izzy was much more integral to Axl. It's not to put down either drummer but in my opinion its more important the drummer can fit in with the band than the singer. 

I like to look at it sort of like the singer and guitarists feed off each other musically with the drummer matching their beat.

I can see why he'd be more inclined to want to have a choice in Izzys replacement and allowed the others to choose the drummer. Then again we weren't there and it's all speculation.

Forgive me if it doesn't make sense. I'm tired.

[BOSSY78]

10 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

Matt has said that Axl showed him how he wanted him to play the piano epics.

There is also a story of Matt visiting Axl's house with Lars Ulrich ~1990.

Thank you for bringing that up. I forgot about that story.