STEVEN ADLER: "Izzy is just as heartbroken as I am that the three of them decided to leave us out and bring three strangers in–who are those people?"

[Fashionista]

5 minutes ago, RONIN said:

Pretty much.

At this time I had nearly managed to get clean up, from everything. When I was looking at the band, I would see Stevie, who was a good guy, who's been struggling with us during all these years, but couldn't handle it anymore. He was a real millstone, he needed to clean up! Fuck... We all tried to help him, to support him. But no, finally, we'd been on the road with this guy for years and we lived this dilemma: "OK. We leave him six months doing nothing without any guarantee it gets better, or we forget about the double album and we burry the band?" Actually, the industry's machine woke up and the answer was: "We take someone else to cut these records." It's wasn't an easy decision. [Izzy, Rock & Folk, September 1992]

"I took it pretty hard when Stevie was out of the band. It was pretty upsetting, cos I was watching Stevie trying to get himself together after pulling myself together, and it was kinda hard seeing somebody trying when they're not really ready for it. I actually spoke to Steve probably a month ago - against the advice of the attorneys - all that fucking bullshit. That part of the business, that part of the band, is such a load of shit - it seems it fucks up so many good things. But I talked to Stevie, I'd heard he wasn't doing so well, and it was a trip talking to the guy cos I hadn't talked to him for what must've been a year.

He was a good natured guy; I hope he can get it together. He was never malicious, he never tried to fuck people around, he was just happy playing his drums. In some ways he's a little naive, I guess. I just tried to offer a little support, y'know? I just talked to him for a little bit. He was a good drummer. He wasn't virtuoso, a Neil Peart from Rush or something, but he's a fucking damn good rock drummer, he's a good guy, and he was funnier than shit on the road. I was always laughing when I was hanging out with Stevie. " [Izzy, Kerrang September '92]

Pretty clear that he was dead weight and needed to go. Izzy had no reason to perpetuate the "lie" in September 1992 that DieselDaisy claims is the case.

[EvanG]

44 minutes ago, RONIN said:

He was the least important person in the group on paper. 

That's true, it would have been worse to lose any of the other guys, and I don't know if they realized at the time how important Steven's groove was, but still he was the least important member. 

As always on here, we're just making assumptions, but from all the stories out there it seems they really went the extra mile to keep him in the band. From Duff threatening his dealer with a gun to playing with other drummers to give him time to clean up, to the Axl quote underneath and many more. If there were motives to kick him out regardless of the drug problems, I don't see why they would do that in the first place. It doesn't make sense. Or all those stories are bullshit.

Quote

Axl: At one point, in order to keep this band together, it was necessary for me to give him a portion of my publishing rights. That was one of the biggest mistakes I've made in my life, but he threw such a fit, saying he wasn't going to stay in the band. We were worried about not being able to record our first album, so I did what I felt I had to do. In the long run I paid very extensively for keeping Steven in Guns N' Roses. I paid $1.5 million by giving him 15% of my publishing off of Appetite For Destruction. He didn't write one goddamn note, but he calls me a selfish dick! He's been able to live off of that money, buy a ****load of drugs and hire lawyers to sue me. If and when he loses the lawsuit he has against us, and he has to pay those lawyers, if he has any money left, it'll be the money that came from Guns N' Roses and myself

 

Edited April 16, 2018 by EvanG

[Fashionista]

I really doubt anyone boycotted GN'R in 1991 cause Steven wasn't there, you know?

Edited April 16, 2018 by Fashionista

[Blackstar]

1 hour ago, RONIN said:

I think it goes even beyond him being able to play his material....

Three major reasons he was ousted imho:

1. Could not wrap his head around Axl's vision for Illusions as per Alan Niven. His skill level wasn't there for this type of thing and the band knew it. They (Axl) had outgrown him musically. Steven would have been bounced out even if he was the most sober member in the band. He could have played his heart out in the studio and it still wouldn't have changed the inevitable. His playing ability was becoming a hindrance for the band's future direction (a direction that Slash, Izzy, Duff and Alan Niven were all extremely conflicted about). This would probably not have happened if the next album was AFD 2. History would repeat itself in the mid 90's when Axl would shift the direction of the band again and suddenly Slash finds himself in the same situation as Steven - being forced to play shit he doesn't relate to at all.

2. Band politics and Money. It was a win/win situation to oust him. He was the least important person in the group on paper. Getting Steven out of the partnership agreement = more money for the partners. Axl/Doug Goldstein saw an opening and extended the rope that Duff/Slash used to hang Steven. If they fought so hard to keep him in the band as we are led to believe - why not keep Steven on standby and bring in a session drummer to play the album and tour until Steven was healthy? Surely a massive financial juggernaut like GnR could afford to do that. It probably would have been cheaper than Axl's St. Louis meltdown. There's a quote from Axl where he's even toying with an idea like that early on but it's never addressed again. Steven getting kicked out of the partnership sets up an important legal precedent that a partner leaving the band has to be bought out (and ostensibly can't passively retain their share in the brand). This would come into play the following year with Izzy's departure. Would Izzy have elected to remain as a passive partner if he was given the option to? Who knows...

3. Adler was the odd man out of the group socially - and that's probably what tipped the scales towards his removal. While Axl and Izzy were off in their own worlds, Slash and Duff were freezing him out of the creative process for Illusions in the studio. His drug induced stupor probably has a role to play in this (as well as Duff/Slash being douches to him). Whatever the case, the personal relationships between Steven and Duff/Slash were rocky.  The Erin Everly speedball incident probably just sealed the deal.

Fastforward to the reunion and Steven (allegedly) is offered a chance to play AFD and some of the Illusion material for the duration of the tour - he gets injured and recovers weeks before the Troubador show but all of a sudden the offer is abruptly rescinded with no explanation. Telltale signs of the redhead at work.

So, boiling it all down in the end - if you look at the root cause for why Steven was kicked out of the band and isn't participating in the reunion - it's Axl Rose.   

More or less agreed with your 3 points, apart from a couple of objections.

I don't agree with your last sentence though.

Although I think point 1 was a factor indeed, in my opinion it has been much exaggerated by Niven. If we think about it, it's only four songs out of all the Illusions (My World doesn't count) Adler possibly couldn't relate to: November Rain, Estranged, Breakdown and Coma; and the latter was Slash's baby, although Niven - conveniently or because of bad memory - has been referring to it as an Axl song. But even Niven admits that it was one of the factors, along with Adler's inability to deal with his drug addiction in a manner that wouldn't affect the band, as well as with the speedball incident.

About point 2: That Axl quote is from the time between Steven's probation contract on March 28, 1990 (because he mentioned it as something that had happened the week before) and Farm Aid (April 7, 1990).

[Steven] is back in the band. He was definitely out of the band. He wasn’t necessarily fired, we worked with Adam Maples, we worked with Martin Chambers, and Steven did the Guns N’ Roses thing and got his shit together. And it worked, and he did it, and he plays the songs better than any of ‘em, just bad-assed, and he’s GNR. And so if he doesn’t blow it, we’re going to try the album with him, and the tour and, you know, we’ve worked out a contract with him....(...) it’s worked out. It’s finally back on and we’re hoping it continues. It’s only been a few days so far. It’s only been since Thursday last week, and he’s doing great. We’re all just hoping it continues. [Axl, Stick To Your Guns by Mick Wall; Kerrang, 21st and 28th of April 1990]

It seems it went like this: they had rehearsed with other drummers (Martin Chambers etc.) but it didn't work, so they decided to put Steven on that contract in an attempt to make him scared that he'd lose it all, so that he'd get his shit together (I believe Duff on that)*. But Steven wouldn't get it together, so they found Sorum, first as someone just to get the job done, and then, when they saw they clicked with him (and when the speedball incident happened - it was probably during that timeframe), they fired Steven and hired Sorum.

[Slash and Duff] didn't approach me again [after 1989] until the very last show I did with The Cult in April last year [=1990], so I had a sneaking suspicion something was going on. The next day, I got a call from Slash at my house. Originally, I was just going to go down and do the album. Then, about two weeks into rehearsal, I went up to Slash's house for a little barbecue and he asked me to join the band. [...] Duff told me one day "At first, I didn't really want to like playing with you, but now I really dig it". [Matt, Chicago Tribune, 1991]

http://www.a-4-d.com/t2886-1991-05-dd-interview-with-matt-on-chicago-tribune

* On that video with Axl's court testimony, it was mentioned that there was a clause on Steven's probation contract according to which Steven would get his share back if he went trough the probation successfully.

Edited April 17, 2018 by Blackstar
added

[Fashionista]

The proof in the pudding of how messed up Steven was is that he did nothing for the entire 90s other than get high, and have a stroke, and then made a fool of himself in the 00s with Dr. Drew. 

[EvanG]

47 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

It seems it went like this: they had rehearsed with other drummers (Martin Chambers etc.) but it didn't work, so they decided to put Steven on that contract in an attempt to make him scared that he'd lose it all, so that he'd get his shit together (I believe Duff on that).

What I gathered from those rehearsals with other drummers at the time is simply because they wanted to continue working and they gave Steven the time (rehab, etc.) to get his act together. They could have fired him much sooner, but they gave him several opportunities to get back in the saddle.

 

Edited April 17, 2018 by EvanG

[RONIN]

58 minutes ago, Fashionista said:

Pretty clear that he was dead weight and needed to go. Izzy had no reason to perpetuate the "lie" in September 1992 that DieselDaisy claims is the case.

Taking into context what Izzy is saying here and what he's said in other interviews, my impression of the situation was that Steven was struggling to clean up but Izzy was not in favor of firing him. Just like the Alan Niven firing, he more than likely was forced to go along with the decision. 

Axl took an entire year to finish his parts on UYI. The album had to be pulled from his hands or he would have continued to work on it further (probably to remove Izzy's contributions). So there was another person delaying the recording of those albums and costing the band a ton of money other than Steven. That's why I said earlier, there's a lot of band politics in this decision to remove him. It's not as clear cut as Steven being high and unable to play. There's more to the story. 

56 minutes ago, EvanG said:

That's true, it would have been worse to lose any of the other guys, and I don't know if they realized at the time how important Steven's groove was, but still he was the least important member. 

As always on here, we're just making assumptions, but from all the stories out there it seems they really went the extra mile to keep him in the band. From Duff threatening his dealer with a gun to playing with other drummers to give him time to clean up, to the Axl quote undernearth and so many more. If there were motives to kick him out regardless of the drug problems, I don't see why they would do that in the first place. It doesn't make sense. Or all those stories are bullshit.

 

Fair point.

They did make a genuine effort to help Steven - but did they go far enough? That's the question. Would they have gone to the extent of firing a band member if anyone else was in his position? Izzy? Duff? Slash? Hard to imagine the band taking such a decision right? 

In the end, it was probably just a perfect storm of events that led to his dismissal. It's just too bad really because I think UYI would have been much better with Steven playing drums.

53 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

Apart from a couple of objections, I more or less agree with your 3 points.

I don't agree with your last sentence though.

Although I think point 1 was a factor indeed, in my opinion it has been much exaggerated by Niven. If we think about it, it's only four songs out of all the Illusions (My World doesn't count) Adler possibly couldn't relate to: November Rain, Estranged, Breakdown and Coma; and the latter was Slash's baby, although Niven - conveniently or because of bad memory - has been referring to it as an Axl song.

About point 2: That Axl quote is from the time between Steven's probation contract on March 28, 1990 (because he mentioned it as something that had happened a week before) and Farm Aid (April 7, 1990). It seems it went like this: they had rehearsed with other drummers (Martin Chambers etc.) but it didn't work, so they decided to put Steven on that contract in an attempt to make him scared that he'd lose it all, so that he'd get his shit together (I believe Duff on that). But Steven wouldn't get it together, so they found Sorum, first as someone just to get the job done, and then, when they saw they clicked with him (and when the speedball incident happened - it was probably during that timeframe), they fired Steven.

Out of likes but great observations.

Re: Point #1, iirc, Duff/Slash weren't really gelling with Adler on their songs either. It seemed to me from reading some of their quotes re: Steven that he just wasn't able to grasp the material as a whole. Like he wasn't able to interpret the songs to their satisfaction stylistically. Him being messed up and unable to play in peak form probably just inflamed that situation. I don't disagree with your take on Niven though. One thing to note about Niven - he doesn't seem like the biggest fan of Steven either. 

Re: Point #2 - that makes perfect sense. I've always suspected that if Steven had been on better terms with Axl and Slash - despite his struggles, it may not have played out like this. 

Edited April 17, 2018 by RONIN

[Blackstar]

2 minutes ago, RONIN said:

Re: Point #1, iirc, Duff/Slash weren't really gelling with Adler on their material either. It seemed to me from reading some of their quotes re: Steven that he just wasn't able to grasp the material as a whole. Like he wasn't able to interpret the material to their satisfaction stylistically. Him being messed up and unable to play in peak form just inflamed that situation. I don't disagree with your take on Niven though. One thing to note about Niven - he doesn't seem like the biggest fan of Steven either. 

Yes, that's true. I added some more stuff on my post while you were quoting it, including that even Niven says in the end that Steven's inability/reluctance to connect to the UYI material was a factor, not the factor.

[EvanG]

3 minutes ago, RONIN said:

Fair point.

They did make a genuine effort to help Steven - but did they go far enough? That's the question. Would they have gone to the extent of firing a band member if anyone else was in his position? Izzy? Duff? Slash? Hard to imagine the band taking such a decision right? 

I agree. If Slash or Izzy had been the problem child at the time, they would have probably gone to extremer measures to keep them in the band, because a new record without one of them wouldn't have been GnR at all. Without Steven was, sorta, imaginable at the time, I guess.

Doesn't mean that all the cynical comments on Steven's firing are true that some of the posters make here.

Maybe it's a bit of both.

[Modano09]

2 hours ago, EvanG said:

I'm sure he had days when he wasn't loaded 24/7 and he wouldn't pass out.

Jeez, why is this so hard to understand?

So you schedule the tour around whatever days he's awake?

[Blackstar]

1 hour ago, RONIN said:

1 hour ago, Fashionista said:

And Izzy at the same time freezing his own self out, so even if Izzy said "no" he didn't have much clout at that point.

Pretty much.

We have to take into account that Izzy wasn't much around during the Steven saga (which had started in Chicago in 1989), because he was sobering up. He wasn't present at the Civil War sessions (which supposedly lead to Steven's probation or to his firing - the timeline isn't very clear about it); he was somewhere in Europe, I think.

[RONIN]

30 minutes ago, Modano09 said:

So you schedule the tour around whatever days he's awake?

Why not? The tour was basically scheduled and rescheduled around Axl's daily meltdowns anyway.

Axl's psychic was even helping to schedule tour dates and locations based on "energy readings" and "vibes".

[Modano09]

13 minutes ago, RONIN said:

Why not? The tour was basically scheduled and rescheduled around Axl's daily meltdowns anyway.

Axl's psychic was even helping to schedule tour dates and locations based on "energy readings" and "vibes".

Because the gap between Axl's importance and Adler's importance is huge so you put up with a little more from Axl than Adler. 

[RONIN]

1 minute ago, Modano09 said:

Because the gap between Axl's importance and Adler's importance is huge so you put up with a little more from Axl than Adler. 

Bingo. Double standards. And that's fine - it is what it is. But I wonder if Duff was in Steven's situation, would Slash have fired his bff? 

You're basing a lot of your posts in this thread around judging Steven's struggles with addiction and his personality flaws as a justification for his removal from the band. The answer is really much simpler. Axl and Slash didn't like him enough to keep him in the band. End of story. If they liked Steven as much as they liked Duff, they would have found a way to work around all of the other issues. 

So in the end, it's less about Steven being a drug addict and more about him not navigating band politics well which led to his firing.

[Modano09]

19 minutes ago, RONIN said:

Bingo. Double standards. And that's fine - it is what it is. But I wonder if Duff was in Steven's situation, would Slash have fired his bff? 

You're basing a lot of your posts in this thread around judging Steven's struggles with addiction and his personality flaws as a justification for his removal from the band. The answer is really much simpler. Axl and Slash didn't like him enough to keep him in the band. End of story. If they liked Steven as much as they liked Duff, they would have found a way to work around all of the other issues. 

So in the end, it's less about Steven being a drug addict and more about him not navigating band politics well which led to his firing.

Well he almost killed Axl's wife, so that didn't help his standing in the band. But if they didn't like him as much as Duff, isn't that at some point kind of on Adler? Because the guy comes off as pretty obnoxious. He can't keep his mouth shut, and he's always blaming someone for whatever he's not happy about at the time. 

[killuridols]

18 minutes ago, Modano09 said:

Well he almost killed Axl's wife, so that didn't help his standing in the band. But if they didn't like him as much as Duff, isn't that at some point kind of on Adler? Because the guy comes off as pretty obnoxious. He can't keep his mouth shut, and he's always blaming someone for whatever he's not happy about at the time. 

I think I read somewhere, like a lawsuit kind of thing, where it was stated that Erin ended up hospitalized because of her husband at the time, not Steven Adler. But hey, I could be mistaken 

[tony adler]

Steven looked and sounded awesome at farm aid , Duff went over to him to jam with him and get on the same tempo as bass and drums do in every great band, video doesn’t lie, Steven was playing with great skill and enthusiasm, and dare I say confidence( Gnr really needed to do more warm up shows like farm aid to keep everyone on the same page)

[Modano09]

1 minute ago, tony adler said:

Steven looked and sounded awesome at farm aid , Duff went over to him to jam with him and get on the same tempo as bass and drums do in every great band, video doesn’t lie, Steven was playing with great skill and enthusiasm, and dare I say confidence( Gnr really needed to do more warm up shows like farm aid to keep everyone on the same page)

This is the same show he face planted no?

[tony adler]

Watch the video closely, he stumbled and recovered nicely , I was nervous just watching, he played spot fucking on during that show and allegedly didn’t know ‘down on the farm’ but shit if he didn’t play it like it was old habit ( believe what u want but I know in my heart he was every part of the 5 that changed rock n roll forever) I build up , no use in tearing down bro

[Fashionista]

Steven secretly wrote all the songs. 

[Derick]

1 hour ago, RONIN said:

The answer is really much simpler. Axl and Slash didn't like him enough to keep him in the band. End of story.

This alone is sufficient to justify his absence and, yes, put an end to this story. Over here we had talk so much that they need to do the right thing and such but the thing is that we ignore, or pretend to ignore, that forcing the presence of someone you don´t want around or you just don´t like is not the right thing either.

And then we have some parrots that repeat over and over that "yes-man" thing and, again, IMO, they ignore the fact that it´s one thing to have different points of view, differents ideas or different attitudes but at the end all those differences converge to one point, to a single direction (probably that happened on the AFD) and it´s another completly diferent thing is have differences that push you to the personal issues and when that happens the right thing is move on and not to try to force situations just to please some hard-core fans.

I would love to have the AFD5 again but under one condition, that all they need to be in the same page, all of them.

[SoulMonster]

6 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

Adler's problems discussed emanate from Adler's drug addiction. 

Yes of course, but by just saying "they kicked him out due to addiction" you are deliberately obfuscating the issue so you can keep on whining about what hypocrites Slash and Duff were. Pathetic. 

[moreblack]

What I really want to know is how Izzy feels about Adler speaking for him

[bigpoop]

51 minutes ago, Modano09 said:

This is the same show he face planted no?

He played great so what if he tripped. btw, if you watch that show closely you'll see Slash vomits  during Civil War. But he also played great so who cares. 

[beautifulanddamned]

I'm sure Izzy was a little heartbroken- although in a completely different way then Adler was/is. Adler's heartbroken because he wants nothing more in life then to go back to the days of Appetite. Izzy stuck his neck out on Twitter and played hardball hoping that the fans and the media would revolt in his favor. But relatively few people gave a shit. The shows sold beautifully, they got great reviews and Slash, Axl and Duff made a ton of money and reclaimed their legacy, simultaneously negating any leverage that Izzy had in the beginning. That had to hurt a little.  That being said, I'm sure Izzy is over it at this point, unlike Adler. Izzy has created his own life he seems very satisfied with it.