Why do you think the Illusion albums always get sidelined?

[tsinindy]

18 minutes ago, Tonto said:

Why in the world of fuck should the setlist be comprised of entirely Illusion songs?

Ronin loves him some UYI, that’s why

i do too, but I love AFD and Lies too, but I’d compromise if having an Illusions only setlist got rid of the CD stuff!

[Tonto]

4 minutes ago, tsinindy said:

Ronin loves him some UYI, that’s why

i do too, but I love AFD and Lies too, but I’d compromise if having an Illusions only setlist got rid of the CD stuff!

The CD stuff is fucking great!

[tsinindy]

8 minutes ago, Tonto said:

The CD stuff is fucking great!

Thanks, first time I got to use the “confused” emoji hahaha!  

To each their own!

[scooby845]

17 hours ago, RONIN said:

Does anyone think Axl overdid his vocals for UYI? His singing on Appetite is so uniform and perfect imho - just the right amount of rasp and it feels more "tasteful" than some of the singing on Illusions. 

I feel like on UYI he's trying to showcase how versatile he is as a singer and while a lot of it hits the mark - there's stuff that goes way too far on the rasp. The rasp/nasal voice on songs like Estranged, YCBM, Yesterdays, The Garden, etc could crack mirrors. I love those vocals but I imagine it's like hearing a cat being thrown in a blender for a lot of casual fans. You don't hear this vocal style on Chi Dem. It's distinctly Illusion era. 

Did his voice change between 89' - '91 or was the "nasal voice" a deliberate choice? The '91 shows in particular really showcase this to the extreme.  

Are you talking about the tone/sound of his voice or the style/technique?

In either regard, I strongly have to disagree. I have yet to see such diverse approach to singing, lyricism, and all-together auter-ism-ship. What Axl displayed there vastly transcends Appetite. 

I'm not comparing the two, I just think that UYI is far more superior in vision-to-reality  regard. The way Axl's voice progresses from Appetite to UYI is already amazing, even thought you can find the Appetite-esque singing on UYI I. But when you look at UYI II (which I prefer) it's almost like there's 10 years between those two albums - that's how much Axl was complex and ahead of the time. Civil War, Locomotive, So Fine, YCBM and finally Estranged...

It's just mind-blowing progress!

Appetite is just a brute force, but UYI is the Inception(movie) of music. It's perfect (for me). And when I say perfect, I mean the true UYI (Estranged, Locomotive...) 

[scooby845]

I don't know why people persist on forcing this opinion, but I just don't see it that way, and I fail understand why some think that way. 

To avoid misapprehension, as far as the public appearance goes:

- They're not sidelined. I mean, yeah, they are, but not due to them not being good enough. A lot more has to do with both UYI being released on the brink of a new era when the typical rock n roll cliche stopped being as powerful as before, but most of all, because it was ahead of its time. You take a look at CD and people still do not accept it, even though a lot has to do with the Slash-less GNR prejudice.

UYI was perfect back then, still is... If there's ONE trustworthy criteria to measure record's legacy and quality - it's not the impact. It's how it ages.

- As far as the inclusion in the setlist goes, I, once again, do not think they're sidelined. A lot has to do with UYI being 3 TIMES longer than AFD.

GNR plays 8 songs (9 when they do not rotate OTGM and Michelle) per show. They play the same amount of UYI stuff. There isn't much quality UYI stuff to put into the setlist (given that they kick out those hideous CD songs and damn covers). What you've got left is - Locomotive, Breakdown, Pretty Tied Up, Dead Horse... So Fine?

I agree, throw out 5 covers and 5 CD songs and you'll get additional UYI, but until then... the only reason we think they're being sidelined is because there is three times the amount of material that there is of Appetite.

[metallex78]

It’s funny, a lot of people talk about about filler whenever UYI comes up, but I became the fan I am from those albums, just as they are, and I absolutely love the diversity and range of styles they cover on both those albums.

Sure there are stronger songs on both, but I don’t consider anything to be filler, simply because for one - Slash absolutely shreds on everything there, and even if you don’t like the song so much, his guitar playing is still quite impressive. On Appetite he was good, but he really upped his game for UYI. I think the whole band did. And as some others have said, Axl really upped his game lyrically and vocally too. The diversity in his voice is quite impressive too.

 The only possible reason I see them playing not so much of this live is due to maybe the songs being Izzy’s tunes, and maybe they bring up some tough memories for Axl?

[janrichmond]

37 minutes ago, metallex78 said:

It’s funny, a lot of people talk about about filler whenever UYI comes up, but I became the fan I am from those albums, just as they are, and I absolutely love the diversity and range of styles they cover on both those albums.

Sure there are stronger songs on both, but I don’t consider anything to be filler, simply because for one - Slash absolutely shreds on everything there, and even if you don’t like the song so much, his guitar playing is still quite impressive. On Appetite he was good, but he really upped his game for UYI. I think the whole band did. And as some others have said, Axl really upped his game lyrically and vocally too. The diversity in his voice is quite impressive too.

 The only possible reason I see them playing not so much of this live is due to maybe the songs being Izzy’s tunes, and maybe they bring up some tough memories for Axl?

Agree with most of this, i really don't see 'filler' either...with My World being the exception  but thankfully it's a short track so it's bearable

[Ace Nova]

Although I like both UYI I & II a ton, AFD and Lies still tend to be better in a live setting, overall, imo.  AFD and Lies don't seem to have "aged" like the UYI albums.  Although 75% of the UYI songs have aged well....there's a good potion of them that have not.  My World, for example, hasn't aged well (and I'm pretty sure the band and Axl aren't fond of the song)....and although musically, Get In The Ring is a solid song, in 2018 the lyrics don't make much sense unless you're 40+ yearsold...lol.

Edited May 3, 2018 by Kasanova King

[RazorGunner]

5 hours ago, Tonto said:

The CD stuff is fucking great!

Agreed, Slash and Duff have no issues playing these songs on the NITL tour, only a handful of supposed fans continually complain about CD songs. 

[thunderram]

On 5/2/2018 at 1:56 PM, janrichmond said:

I like the UYI I more than II and i still have it on my playlist. My first times seeing them live were the illusions tours, so there is the nostalgia effect too. I would buy an illusions boxset.

+1 in favoring UYI I over II.

I love both albums. But if forced to choose one over the other, though, it's UYI I -- which is saying a lot since I love Locomotive and Breakdown so very much, along with everything else.

I miss the UYI era tours. I saw them live in 91, 92 and 93, in different venue types -- Amphitheater, Stadium and Arena. I miss not knowing what was gonna happen or what you might see from show to show.

[janrichmond]

17 minutes ago, thunderram said:

I miss the UYI era tours. I saw them live in 91, 92 and 93,

Same as me!! Still my favourite concerts ever. NITL was good but nothing like the old days. 

[EvanG]

I guess it's because AFD is more iconic. I still prefer UYI because it's more diverse and lyrically better.

On 3-5-2018 at 12:08 AM, Fourteenbeers said:

Does anyone else feel that the part of  Illusions that hasn't aged particularly well,  is not the music itself, but the videos?  Apart from YCBM, they seem kind of tacky and/or bloated. Or maybe it's just me, because I'm less is more - type?

The music aged well in my opinion, but most of those videos were dreadful. But I believe that even Axl doesn't like them anymore.

21 hours ago, RONIN said:

Does anyone think Axl overdid his vocals for UYI? His singing on Appetite is so uniform and perfect imho - just the right amount of rasp and it feels more "tasteful" than some of the singing on Illusions. 

His background vocals in the second chorus of Dust N' Bones ruin it for me. I also mind those added lines in Breakdown (let me hear it now), same in Double Talkin' Jive (you dig what I'm saying) and Pretty Tied Up (but check it out, kool ranch dressing). I mean... seriously? He does that in several songs on UYI and to me it's a distraction. I wish Mike Clink or anyone else would have talked him out of it.

Edited May 3, 2018 by EvanG

[janrichmond]

*Calm down @EvanG and i agree about the added lines 

 

*you edited 

Edited May 3, 2018 by janrichmond

[EvanG]

2 minutes ago, janrichmond said:

Calm down @EvanG and i agree about the added lines 

I haven't even mentioned his climax noises during the intro of So Fine. That has given me nightmares until my late 20s.

[EvanG]

7 minutes ago, janrichmond said:

*you edited 

Haha... oh you were referring to that? Yeah, it froze when I was clicking on 'submit reply' and I don't know what happened!

[Iron MikeyJ]

IMO, the Illusions get a lot of negativity from general rock fans. Honestly I feel that MANY rock fans/critics Like diminish those albums as a way to lessen Guns impact overall. Appetite IMO is THE best hard rock album ever, better than ANYTHING by any other band, it's just that good. So by comparison,  of course the next thing guns did wouldn't be that good. Just like how MJ could tip Thriller or how Prince couldn't tip Purple Rain. When you mak3 something so perfect, the only place to go is down. Even AC/DC never came close to Back in Black again, it's just not possible.

Having said that, the Illusions would be considered masterpieces by pretty much ANY other band. Look at Mellion Collie by Smashing Pumpkins, the Illusions piss all over that album imo, yet most fans/critics would rate Mellion Collie a head of them. 

Don't get me wrong, their is some filler on the Illusions, and MY World is a seriously WTF moment for sure. Having said that, the highs of those albums EXCEEDED the highs of Appetite IMO, it's just not AS cohesive. But neither is Physical Graffiti or The Wall. Most fans/Critics would say those are the best double albums ever, and they are FAR from perfect. Are they better than the Illusions? As is, yes. But the Illusions would be 4 albums in those days, so if you trim some fat from them, they ARE better than both The Wall and Physical Graffiti IMO. I would put Civil War, NR,  YCBM, Coma, and Breakdown next to or even ahead of ANYTHING on those other two albums. 

So long story short, the Illusions get unfair criticism imo because of how good Appetite is.

[metallex78]

1 hour ago, RazorGunner said:

Agreed, Slash and Duff have no issues playing these songs on the NITL tour, only a handful of supposed fans continually complain about CD songs. 

While I don’t mind some CD stuff, I don’t know why anyone would rather hear Slash on the rather dull by comparison power chords of Chinese Democracy, as opposed to the killer riffing of Locomotive and Don’t Damn Me

[RONIN]

Great posts @Iron MikeyJ, @metallex78

The filler criticism is weird to hear from critics now given that GnR went offline for ~17 years until Chinese Democracy. What would they prefer? No extra GnR songs so they can get their perfect "filler-free" album? Had those songs not been included on UYI, we would never have heard them.

Another point of contention - it seems like very few fans/critics can agree on what is "filler" on UYI. Some people don't like the Izzy songs. Others think GITR, Shotgun Blues, and Garden of Eden are great punk/metal songs. There are a good number of people on this forum that don't like Coma or November Rain. 

There's really no way to create the perfect tracklisting for this album. The only consensus most of us can reach is that DC alternate should have been a b-side and My World should have been left off (and even there, I'd argue that if Axl had just recorded it as an instrumental, it would have been fine to leave in as a coda).

Point being, if it's a question between more GNR music or less for UYI, I'm glad they went with more. This isn't a prolific band. We'll take table scraps at this point. Bring on the alternate take for My World feat. Adler and Axl on shrooms. 

Edited May 3, 2018 by RONIN

[RONIN]

4 hours ago, scooby845 said:

UYI was perfect back then, still is... If there's ONE trustworthy criteria to measure record's legacy and quality - it's not the impact. It's how it ages.

As @Kasanova King mentioned, there's a sense from some that UYI has not aged particularly well. While there's cursing on Appetite, it comes off more juvenile in UYI. On one hand, songs like GITR are very punk and reflects these guys in their late 20's not giving a fuck about what anyone thinks....but on the other hand, it seems excessive... which I suppose is GnR's MO. 

The mixing and some of the early 90's gimmicks (sound effects) dates this album to my ears moreso than stuff like GITR. I find the same issues on Michael Jackson's Dangerous, another album from 1991. Imho, throwing more money at the production of these albums somehow lessened them sonically compared to the (by contrast) polished but grounded Nevermind.

TSI? oddly enough sounds great though. Still too polished, but it captures the band's sound better than UYI, especially Sorum.

Quote

GNR plays 8 songs (9 when they do not rotate OTGM and Michelle) per show. They play the same amount of UYI stuff. There isn't much quality UYI stuff to put into the setlist (given that they kick out those hideous CD songs and damn covers). What you've got left is - Locomotive, Breakdown, Pretty Tied Up, Dead Horse... So Fine?

Don't Damn Me, Bad Obsession, The Garden, Perfect Crime, 14 years, Right Next Door To Hell - plenty of songs to play. But then again, I think most of UYI is quality. 
 

Quote

I agree, throw out 5 covers and 5 CD songs and you'll get additional UYI, but until then... the only reason we think they're being sidelined is because there is three times the amount of material that there is of Appetite.

 

The covers are just gratuitous. I understand that they have to play LALD/KOHD, but the other stuff is pointless. How hard would it be to be to cut one of the instrumental spots and have the band do the outro jam from Locomotive? Some of the choices they're making seem a bit strange.

I have no issues with Chinese Democracy songs but I don't think most of them give Slash much to do. That's the issue. There's not much "riffage" in CD. If Slash thought standing around during the piano solos for November Rain and Estranged was difficult, I imagine Madagascar/Prostitute must be excruciating for him.

Edited May 4, 2018 by RONIN

[Iron MikeyJ]

IMO Back of Bitch, Shotgun Blues, and MY World are the 3 worst songs on those albums (Not in that order). The rest, I would feel bad NOT having as a fan. Those 3 wouldn't make me sad if they ceased to exist.

Which Use your Illusion 1 and 2, taken as separate albums are still quite a bit better than CD imo. I say that as someone that actually likes CD. But Scraped and Riad are just bad imo. I would put them with Shot gun Blues, Back off Birch, and MY World as the 5 worst songs guns ever did. What really separates the albums (UYI 1 or 2 vs CD) is the highs vs fillers. UYI reaches greater heights and has less songs that I consider straight filler, which I'm EXCLUDING the "bad" I just mentioned 

Edited May 4, 2018 by Iron MikeyJ

[Kwick1]

19 hours ago, rocknroll41 said:

Id be so pissed if I waited 2 hours and only got 15 songs.

At one point it was announced that Axl hadn't made it there yet. Many people left. That allowed me to move from the lawn to 3rd row. My friends who stayed for night 2 in Dallas said they played 3 hours and 2 encores.  It was the first time I saw GnR as the sole headliner. I saw them in '89 in LA with the Stones. 

As for the set list it's normal for bands to play a wide selection from all their LPs. 

[RazorGunner]

4 hours ago, metallex78 said:

While I don’t mind some CD stuff, I don’t know why anyone would rather hear Slash on the rather dull by comparison power chords of Chinese Democracy, as opposed to the killer riffing of Locomotive and Don’t Damn Me

Differing opinions- I happen to enjoy the CD songs and really enjoy how Duff and Slash changed the intro to Better using existing parts. 

[moreblack]

AFD has aged way better. It's virtually their greatest hits.

 

UYI after all these years only has a couple of memorable songs in each album.

[-W.A.R-]

Illusions have fell by the wayside except for a few songs to most rock/causal fans. Appetite on the hand is still revered.

On Illusions: Despite being underwhelmed by them at first, they have actually become very personal albums to me and i listen to them more than AFD.

For ones that argue they have aged poorly: Put on Contraband by Velvet Revolver to hear what that sounds like. That album is so stuck in 2004 its not funny.

Edited May 4, 2018 by -W.A.R-

[kok]

Actually when I first got into GNR I thought UYI albums were their greatest hits. Everybody keeps saying that UYI are full of fillers but in my opinion AFD has proportionally way more. I consider Think about you, You are Crazy and Anything goes as fillers .