Why do you think the Illusion albums always get sidelined?

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On ‎02‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 7:55 PM, IncitingChaos said:

They played 

LALD

KOHD

COMA

ESTRANGED

CIVIL WAR

YESTERDAYS

Dont Cry 

November Rain

YCBM 

so on tour it was even. I don’t think they celebrate them as much Bc the impact of AFD was that much greater, plus I think it was a frustrating time for the entire band.

id like to see a UYI release with all the fillers taken out and have that remastered with the footage of the documentary from the tour. It would be pretty cool to do something like that. I think there’s a ton of bonus footage from that time which is the exciting part

short answer: appetite songs makes you want to party. those UYI songs you listed (apart from YCBM); bring the party down.

long answer: unpopular opinion, but there is only one song on that list that I regularily play. Never was a fan of the epics or ballads. YCBM kicks ass though. The appetite / lies songs are their best work, from a hard rock point of view. Especially in a concert environment, where you want to have a good time, the appetite songs fit that goal with their party feel. A song like "estranged" brings down the party and KOHD is a caricature these days. nightrain, It's so easy and brownstone are the crown jewels, in my opinion.

[EvanG]

38 minutes ago, kok said:

I consider Think about you, You are Crazy and Anything goes as fillers .

I don't agree on Think About You, but Anything Goes is filler and I understand why You're Crazy made the album but it's not great, definitely one of the weaker songs.

[Gackt]

A lot of casual listeners don't want to listen to a 30-song quadruple album.  The only exposure a lot of people might have to the albums also is the compilation version that took 6 tracks from 1 and 6 from 2.

[Drexl]

Yet another reason why I hate that pussy and poser Cobain. I've read a lot of old magazines from that time and right after the Illusions were released, they were considered masterpieces. But since sterile and songless Nevermind and Metallica's Shit Album became massive hits, Illusions received a lot of hate. And when he blew his head off, his lunatic words went from bullshit to gospel. Of course soap-opera-like videos have caused a huge damage too.

My only minor complaint is that Axl's vocals are a little too loud and Duff's and Izzy' tracks are too quiet. And fuck, Axl, why have you chosen Back Off Bitch instead of Crash Diet and Get in the Ring instead of Bring It Back Home. Why, Jesus, why?!

What's also funny is how people ignore their boldness. From hard rock/punk/metal to art rock? No other band ever made such a huge step. They had balls and they succeeded. But the examples of Illusions, FNM's King for a Day and STP's Tiny Music show that real art is often rejected. Kickass music is fun, art sucks.

Edited May 4, 2018 by Drexl
error

[scooby845]

1 hour ago, Drexl said:

STP's Tiny Music

That's best STP album for me. Truly exceptional!

[Fross]

I think the illusions would make a better box set and these kind of things.I mean,the appetite is good the way he is.The band at the time wasn't big enough like in the illusions to have things like:pro shots from every show,who are the holy grail to gnr fans like slash said,Making off from the singles, and etc.

I hope they not forget the illusions and release these  hidden materials,you can find on youtube things that  tease the fans.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTkySdyBnp4

[AXL_N_DIZZY]

There seems to be something weird going on when it comes to Axl and the UYI “Twins”. They were hugely successful out-of-the-gate- (particularly 91-92), cultivated an image of Axl being a borderline musical genius w/The Trilogy, “Breakdown”, etc. at the tender age of 29/30, and were the “foundation” for a distinct post-Appetite “Axl Rose style” of slick/professional production, dramatic song structure and variety that carried through to Chinese and assumedly beyond. 

In fact- they’re the first albums I think of when I think of Axl. Appetite is an incredible tour de force. 5 hooligans with fists raised. One of the 2-3 greatest hard rock albums ever recorded- and the best hard rock debut IMHO. Yet- to only think of Axl in terms of Appetite- is to completely miss who he actually is as an artist IMHO.

Long way of saying all this “Axl ambivalence” (perceived or otherwise) to the Illusions is pretty shocking. I frankly don’t believe it- at least as being musically-driven- as I still see him as building out from the UYIs- rather than abandoning them (e.g. “TWAT”, “Sorry”, “Madagascar”, “TIL” all have strong UYI elements IMHO).

It’s therefore probably an emotional thing- with the band’s turmoil at the time, substance abuse, riots, Stephanie, the anti-GNR/grunge movement, issues with Matt n’ Gilby, lawsuits and eventual dissolution of that line-up...

Whatever the case- the UYIs shouldn’t be as “2nd rate citizens” as they are. 99% of bands would kill to have one of those albums on their scorecard- no less two. Frankly, their scale, grandeur and variety provides the “illusion”  (pun intended) that the band had a longer, more productive run then perhaps they did when it comes to things like RNRHOF, “Greatest Bands” lists, etc. In that sense they were a brilliant master stroke for such a combustible band with questionable longevity...

Edited May 8, 2018 by AXL_N_DIZZY

[AXL_N_DIZZY]

On 5/4/2018 at 8:51 PM, tremolo said:

Art rock? What makes you qualify UYI as such?

Check out the UYI section in this bio by critic Stephen Thomas Erlewine:

https://www.allmusic.com/artist/guns-n-roses-mn0000540883

As he suggests- it’s not that the full albums are “art rock”- but rather that some of the more epic tracks seem to have “art rock” qualities...

[Chunder Monkey]

I think the Use Your Illusion albums are fantastic and I hope they get a deluxe treatment one day.

If the band don't like it as much I think it's because it was a somewhat difficult era:

1. Axl took 2 years to finish the vocals which frustrated the rest of the band.

2. It was the time period they lost steven

3. It was the time period they lost Izzy

4. Axl didn't want to be on tour and felt persecuted by the media.

5. The band grew apart, communicating through managers, tour profits were lost in the the haze of parties, fines, riots and arguments. 

6. Additional personal were added to the band that some may or may not have wanted, the whole direction of the songs and sound went more stadium rock in a way that alienated some members.

7. This was the era where the originals lost control of the band to Axl.

8. Drug use was exceptionally bad in this period. Slash literally dying before shows and Duff doing insane levels of harm.

9. The voids created during this period made it impossible for the band to ever move on together - Slash ended up doing Snakepit and Axl went into CD mode.

 

Having been to the UYI tour I thought the band was amazing, and I love the albums, but I can see why if you were in the band you would have fonder memories of the AFD era than UYI. But UYI time things were well out of control and on a spiral to hell, whereas AFD was about things getting better and better....it was all so easy hahahah.

 

[Tyler Drama]

On 5/2/2018 at 1:55 PM, IncitingChaos said:

They played 

LALD

KOHD

COMA

ESTRANGED

CIVIL WAR

YESTERDAYS

Dont Cry 

November Rain

YCBM 

so on tour it was even. I don’t think they celebrate them as much Bc the impact of AFD was that much greater, plus I think it was a frustrating time for the entire band.

id like to see a UYI release with all the fillers taken out and have that remastered with the footage of the documentary from the tour. It would be pretty cool to do something like that. I think there’s a ton of bonus footage from that time which is the exciting part

Also Double Talkin’ Jive.

God, I love the UYI albums.

[surforia]

The fact that the AFD box is coming out gives me great hope that they will release a UYI box.  There's too much money for the record company for them NOT to do it, and it would postpone Axl having to release new music while giving them the ability to continue to tour NITL.  My guess is that it comes out next year or the year after, if I had to guess (fingers crossed).

[Gackt]

16 minutes ago, surforia said:

The fact that the AFD box is coming out gives me great hope that they will release a UYI box.  There's too much money for the record company for them NOT to do it, and it would postpone Axl having to release new music while giving them the ability to continue to tour NITL.  My guess is that it comes out next year or the year after, if I had to guess (fingers crossed).

I hope so also; there's a ton of unused content from that era sitting in the vault, between all of the outtakes with the various musicians coming and going from the band at the time and demos nobody's likely heard of before.

Hell, we could even get the 1993 version of This I Love.

[EvH]

On 04/05/2018 at 4:03 PM, Gackt said:

A lot of casual listeners don't want to listen to a 30-song quadruple album.  The only exposure a lot of people might have to the albums also is the compilation version that took 6 tracks from 1 and 6 from 2.

You mean the one released in 1998 by Walmart, with the combined color scheme? I really doubt it. No one knows about this compilation, apart from hardcores.

[themadcaplaughs]

On 5/3/2018 at 1:09 AM, shotsfired cro said:

UYI's are perfect as they are, granted minus My World.

Eventually, some critic some day said 'they are overproduced' and then even the none GNR fans began repeating that cliche.

They remain the most listened albums of my life.  Not sure, but think I listened each over a thousand times.

 

I agree with this 100%. Over the course of the 1990s and the first half of the 2000s, I met a handful of people who would say the albums had "too many 'meh' songs" or would complain that the albums did not sound as "raw" as Appetite for Destruction, but the general consensus I found among GN'R fans in that era (both casual and online) was that the artistic highs and musical growth the band exhibited on Use Your Illusion I and II far outshone some of the "lesser" moments (you would typically see "My World," "Get in the Ring," and "Shotgun Blues" listed as the lesser songs). From 2007 on, I found two big quotes really started to sway the opinion on the Use Your Illusion albums. First was Slash's comment in his autobiography about how cool the "raw" and "unpolished" rough mixes of the albums were (apparently before Axl added so many vocal overdubs, synths, sound effects, etc.). The second was the previously mentioned comment from Axl in 2009 about how he felt Matt's drum sound really tainted the albums in his mind (and to Axl's credit, he blames this entirely on the rest of the band, saying they did not know how to record and mix a drummer as talented as Matt). After this, you started to hear the now-common complaints about the albums. My problem does not lie with the criticisms themselves - they're valid - but I find a lot of people simply changed their long held beliefs on the albums because of those statements from Axl and Slash. 

 

In the past, I loved the idea of remixing the albums. At this point, however, I tend to feel the same way about remixing Use Your Illusion as I do about Lucas making changes to the original Star Wars movies. Sure, the albums have problems, but they represent a specific snapshot in time, and shouldn't be altered after twenty-seven years of hindsight. Just leave them be. As to how the albums get "sidelined," well, I hear "Live and Let Die," "Don't Cry," "November Rain," "Knockin' on Heaven's Door," and "You Could Be Mine" on my local rock station constantly. At the last Guns N' Roses show I attended, they played six Use Your Illusion songs: three of which ("November Rain," "Coma," and "Estranged") are the longest songs in the band's discography. I wouldn't call that overlooked. 

On 5/3/2018 at 6:58 PM, Iron MikeyJ said:

IMO, the Illusions get a lot of negativity from general rock fans. Honestly I feel that MANY rock fans/critics Like diminish those albums as a way to lessen Guns impact overall. Appetite IMO is THE best hard rock album ever, better than ANYTHING by any other band, it's just that good. So by comparison,  of course the next thing guns did wouldn't be that good. Just like how MJ could tip Thriller or how Prince couldn't tip Purple Rain. When you mak3 something so perfect, the only place to go is down. Even AC/DC never came close to Back in Black again, it's just not possible.

Having said that, the Illusions would be considered masterpieces by pretty much ANY other band. Look at Mellion Collie by Smashing Pumpkins, the Illusions piss all over that album imo, yet most fans/critics would rate Mellion Collie a head of them. 

Don't get me wrong, their is some filler on the Illusions, and MY World is a seriously WTF moment for sure. Having said that, the highs of those albums EXCEEDED the highs of Appetite IMO, it's just not AS cohesive. But neither is Physical Graffiti or The Wall. Most fans/Critics would say those are the best double albums ever, and they are FAR from perfect. Are they better than the Illusions? As is, yes. But the Illusions would be 4 albums in those days, so if you trim some fat from them, they ARE better than both The Wall and Physical Graffiti IMO. I would put Civil War, NR,  YCBM, Coma, and Breakdown next to or even ahead of ANYTHING on those other two albums. 

So long story short, the Illusions get unfair criticism imo because of how good Appetite is.

 

Agree with almost everything you say, but comparing Smashing Pumpkins and Guns N' Roses is like comparing apples and oranges. That being said, and this is subjective, I think - as a long form album - Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness absolutely annihilates the Use Your Illusion albums. "Bullet with Butterfly Wings," "Zero," "Tonight, Tonight" and "1979" hold the same place in many Gen-X'rs hearts as "Welcome to the Jungle," "Paradise City," "Sweet Child O' Mine," and "November Rain" hold to people who observed GN'R during their hey-day. 

Edited May 8, 2018 by themadcaplaughs

[rocknroll41]

On May 3, 2018 at 7:28 PM, metallex78 said:

While I don’t mind some CD stuff, I don’t know why anyone would rather hear Slash on the rather dull by comparison power chords of Chinese Democracy, as opposed to the killer riffing of Locomotive and Don’t Damn Me

The guitar work on the CD title song may not be as interesting, but the vocal melody on it is a lot "catchier" than the ones in Locomotive and Don't Damn Me.

[Iron MikeyJ]

3 hours ago, themadcaplaughs said:

 

I agree with this 100%. Over the course of the 1990s and the first half of the 2000s, I met a handful of people who would say the albums had "too many 'meh' songs" or would complain that the albums did not sound as "raw" as Appetite for Destruction, but the general consensus I found among GN'R fans in that era (both casual and online) was that the artistic highs and musical growth the band exhibited on Use Your Illusion I and II far outshone some of the "lesser" moments (you would typically see "My World," "Get in the Ring," and "Shotgun Blues" listed as the lesser songs). From 2007 on, I found two big quotes really started to sway the opinion on the Use Your Illusion albums. First was Slash's comment in his autobiography about how cool the "raw" and "unpolished" rough mixes of the albums were (apparently before Axl added so many vocal overdubs, synths, sound effects, etc.). The second was the previously mentioned comment from Axl in 2009 about how he felt Matt's drum sound really tainted the albums in his mind (and to Axl's credit, he blames this entirely on the rest of the band, saying they did not know how to record and mix a drummer as talented as Matt). After this, you started to hear the now-common complaints about the albums. My problem does not lie with the criticisms themselves - they're valid - but I find a lot of people simply changed their long held beliefs on the albums because of those statements from Axl and Slash. 

 

In the past, I loved the idea of remixing the albums. At this point, however, I tend to feel the same way about remixing Use Your Illusion as I do about Lucas making changes to the original Star Wars movies. Sure, the albums have problems, but they represent a specific snapshot in time, and shouldn't be altered after twenty-seven years of hindsight. Just leave them be. As to how the albums get "sidelined," well, I hear "Live and Let Die," "Don't Cry," "November Rain," "Knockin' on Heaven's Door," and "You Could Be Mine" on my local rock station constantly. At the last Guns N' Roses show I attended, they played six Use Your Illusion songs: three of which ("November Rain," "Coma," and "Estranged") are the longest songs in the band's discography. I wouldn't call that overlooked. 

 

Agree with almost everything you say, but comparing Smashing Pumpkins and Guns N' Roses is like comparing apples and oranges. That being said, and this is subjective, I think - as a long form album - Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness absolutely annihilates the Use Your Illusion albums. "Bullet with Butterfly Wings," "Zero," "Tonight, Tonight" and "1979" hold the same place in many Gen-X'rs hearts as "Welcome to the Jungle," "Paradise City," "Sweet Child O' Mine," and "November Rain" hold to people who observed GN'R during their hey-day. 

I was just using Mellion Collie as a source of reference. Yes I agree, it's all subjective. My point was, if we lived in a world where Appetite didn't exist, just the Illusions, I think they would get a lot more praise. They are just not considered Guns defining work like Mellion Collie is with SP.  But if you look at them in a vacuum, they are QUITE remarkable imo.

[madmardigan]

I think the 2 biggest issues facing UYI is it's excess and lack of cohesion. UYI is pretty much the culmination of the late 70s - 80s metal/hard rock/Rock God era and is that genre's last final rage against the dying of the light. The double album release, the huge tour, the style of that era looking ridiculous with the arrival of grunge, UYI is everything that gave rise to grunge like 70s arena rock gave rise to punk. Instead of being a blast of energy like Appetite is, it's viewed by history as a dinosaur roaring at the meteor approaching.

The music itself on the album is problematic and doesn't hold together nearly as well as it does on Appetite. It's too scatterbrained. Like they had a ton of ideas, the means to do it but no filter. I mean you have songs like YCBM which is from the Appetite era next to the grandiosity of a 70s style power ballad in November Rain. And then of course there's shitola filler like My World or Get in the Ring which add nothing to the album and are completely masturbatory. 

Had they stripped away the filler (seriously... 2 Don't Cry's??), lose a cover and made it into one strong album then I think it would've helped to make the album as a whole stronger. Especially as it's viewed by history. If they were hell bent on making a double album, then GnR should have conceptualized the tracks on each better. Like make I the stripped down hard rock album and make II the more experimental one.

[TheHelgo]

this is a great topic of conversation.  I did not love the Illusions albums out of the gate, as I was expecting a sound more like Appetite.  I learned to love both albums, but have always favored UYI 1 just a little more.  I can really now say that I appreciate/enjoy the UYI albums on a level similar to Appetite, but in a different way.  As many have stated, the sound/composition/direction changed.  This doesn't make it bad or worse than Appetite - just different. Looking back, it is actually quite amazing how GNR were able to reinvent themselves for Illusions and do it so successfully.  I hope there is a box set / celebration around these albums around the 30th (or 31st lol) anniversary.

I will say that I do tend to skip certain songs while listening to Illusions, whereas I have never had a problem listening to Appetite straight through - every song is tight on Appetite, while there are some just plain bad songs on Illusions (Back off Bitch, My World, Shotgun Blues to name a few)

[Nice Boy]

nobody can seriously think UYI has no filler

if they had released an EP with just You Ain't The First, So Fine, Shotgun Blues and My World on it, would you have rated that?

[jacdaniel]

GNR were a hard rock band and people loved them for it. They lost sight of that and things got bloated. 

Skin an bones tour an spagethi incident showed signs of returning to their roots.

But then CD era started and the bloat returned 10 fold.

[Tom-Ass]

19 hours ago, Nice Boy said:

nobody can seriously think UYI has no filler

if they had released an EP with just You Ain't The First, So Fine, Shotgun Blues and My World on it, would you have rated that?

I like all of those songs.. So Fine the least but it is ok once in a great while...

[kok]

19 hours ago, Nice Boy said:

nobody can seriously think UYI has no filler

if they had released an EP with just You Ain't The First, So Fine, Shotgun Blues and My World on it, would you have rated that?

Apart from my world (which I do not consider an actual song, but just some joke to fill last 2 min of space on CD) these are all cool songs. 

[tsinindy]

5 minutes ago, kok said:

Apart from my world (which I do not consider an actual song, but just some joke to fill last 2 min of space on CD) these are all cool songs. 

Yah I didn’t realize people actually considered my world a song as opppsed to a poor attempt at a clever outro.

[Good, Fuck'n, Night.]

On 5/4/2018 at 8:08 AM, RazorGunner said:

Agreed, Slash and Duff have no issues playing these songs on the NITL tour, only a handful of supposed fans continually complain about CD songs. 

Outside of forums like this only a handful of people know CD is a GNR record.

[RazorGunner]

5 hours ago, Good, Fuck'n, Night. said:

Outside of forums like this only a handful of people know CD is a GNR record.

I disagree- nearly everyone I know aside from a few people not really into music was well aware that CD was/is a GNR Album and none of them are on forums.