It's So Easy Video Discussion - Now Viewable on YouTube

[soon]

17 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

According to Alan Niven, the band wanted to release it but he didn't allow it. He claims that he saved Axl by doing that, given what followed later (DV lawsuits).

Or maybe they intended to include it in a home video collection along with other videos, but it didn't happen at the time, and when they did release the video collection the DV court cases were very recent.

The Jane's Addiction Mountain Song video was released a little before the shooting of the ISE video (actually the concept might have been a bit of a source of inspiration - of course the ISE video is very GnR). I remember this censored version being on light rotation (1-2 times a day) on MTV Europe  (I think I even had seen the uncensored one at night, but I'm not sure):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kAIMlISHhU

But I guess the GnR video, if it was given to MTV, would have been banned completely, as S&M scenes would've been considered more inappropriate than light necrophilic ones as in the Janes Addiction video.

 

-----

Glad that they at least released it finally on youtube after only one week as Apple exclusive.

Yeah, Im pumped that they released it and I could see it!

I'd forgot Niven said that, thanks. So, is Niven's decision to say that at the time a female sub in a BDSM scene would be viewed as a non-consensual act of violence against women rather then fantasy and play? A pre-50 Shades world, so to speak. And I guess the fantasy aspect was easier to understand with necrophilia because it was far less likely to take place irl? (dont mean to put you on the spot, to speak for society or anything).  Or I wonder is it possible that Niven was perhaps already aware of the dv issues and was playing it extra safe?

I recall reading many references to a scene of Axl punching a bound Everly, at the "see me hit you" lyric, but I don't think thats shown in this video?  Without that scene I dont get connection to DV.

Or as you say, perhaps it was just scrapped along with the entire 'home video.'  So much we've missed out on!

 

[Blackstar]

41 minutes ago, soon said:

Yeah, Im pumped that they released it and I could see it!

I'd forgot Niven said that, thanks. So, is Niven's decision to say that at the time a female sub in a BDSM scene would be viewed as a non-consensual act of violence against women rather then fantasy and play? A pre-50 Shades world, so to speak. [...]  Or I wonder is it possible that Niven was perhaps already aware of the dv issues and was playing it extra safe?

I recall reading many references to a scene of Axl punching a bound Everly, at the "see me hit you" lyric, but I don't think thats shown in this video?  Without that scene I dont get connection to DV.

Or as you say, perhaps it was just scrapped along with the entire 'home video.'  So much we've missed out on!

 

Here is what Axl had said at the time and what Niven said later (from Mick Wall's book):

Quote

 ‘We always wanted to do a video for that song,’ Axl told me. ‘We’re gonna have a home video at some point, so we wanted to do some videos that were, like, completely no-holds-barred, uncensored type of things. Just live shooting, instead of worrying about whether MTV is gonna play it. Just go out there and do a fucking blown-out live, real risky video.’

The video, which featured sadomasochistic scenes involving Erin, was never officially released. Alan Niven saw to that. ‘I get a call from Nigel Dick saying Axl had called Nigel direct, saying, “I want to shoot some footage for this.” Nigel’s going, “You are going to go fucking ballistic when you see this stuff.” He’s got her hung from the doorway and slapping her ass, the mouth-gag and so on … Lots of fun [but] you don’t put it in a fucking video that represents the entire band and put it out there for the whole world to see.’ The upshot was that Niven ‘wouldn’t let the final edit be done and I got the offline copies. The reason for that was I knew he was committing suicide with that bondage shit with Erin. And lo and behold he got divorced. So you know what they would have done with that? I protected the little fuck.’

 I don't remember reading that rumour about a scene of Axl punching Erin - and I don't think Niven ever mentioned it.

Niven most likely knew about the DV issues at the time, but I doubt that was the reason he didn't let the video be edited and released, since, as you say, why would an acting S&M scene be seen as non consensual by the general public? He just thought it was too bold. It's probably one of the cases Niven projects stuff, exaggerates and is full of himself.

Quote

And I guess the fantasy aspect was easier to understand with necrophilia because it was far less likely to take place irl? (dont mean to put you on the spot, to speak for society or anything).

Maybe that, maybe because the gothic imagery was relatively common at the time in popular culture with the gothic subculture in the 80s etc, so the main issue with the Jane's Addiction video was nudity - although I read that things were more strict on American MTV and the censored video was aired only on theme/genre shows late at night.

 

Edited May 28, 2018 by Blackstar

[Tori72]

27 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

Here is what Axl had said at the time and what Niven said later (from Mick Wall's book):

 I don't remember reading that rumour about a scene of Axl punching Erin - and I don't think Niven ever mentioned it.

Niven most likely knew about the DV issues at the time, but I doubt that was the reason he didn't let the video be edited and released, since, as you say, why would an acting S&M scene be seen as non consensual by the general public? He just thought it was too bold. It's probably one of the cases Niven projects stuff, exaggerates and is full of himself.

Maybe that, maybe because the gothic imagery was relatively common at the time in popular culture with the gothic subculture in the 80s etc, so the main issue with the Jane's Addiction video was nudity - although I read that things were more strict on American MTV and the censored video was aired only on theme/genre shows late at night.

 

I don’t think sadomaso scenes would have been considered as consensual at the time. Just a gut feeling. I don’t think knowledge of what is going on wasn’t so wide spread in the general public. Also I think there’s a difference between those polished glamour sadomaso scenes in, like, Madonna videos from the time (that also got no air time on mtv) and the ISE scene. In ISE the scenes are far more sleazy and blunt.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Tori72

[Setzer]

2 hours ago, eggers said:

Whats with the shitty bitrate?? I hope it's not like that on the blu-ray.

YouTube compression. It won't be like that on the Blu-ray (and it probably won't be a 4K Blu-ray either though).

1 hour ago, DieselDaisy said:

So Universal wasted a lot of time trying to delete the thing from youtube, only to finally give up? When will they ever learn?

They finally gave up? What are you talking about? You have no idea how this stuff works. It was always in the plans to upload it on their channel too. We also recently got HD uploads of other videos on the channel.

[soon]

22 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

Here is what Axl had said at the time and what Niven said later (from Mick Wall's book):

 I don't remember reading that rumour about a scene of Axl punching Erin - and I don't think Niven ever mentioned it.

Niven most likely knew about the DV issues at the time, but I doubt that was the reason he didn't let the video be edited and released, since, as you say, why would an acting S&M scene be seen as non consensual by the general public? He just thought it was too bold. It's probably one of the cases Niven projects stuff, exaggerates and is full of himself.

Maybe that, maybe because the gothic imagery was relatively common at the time in popular culture with the gothic subculture in the 80s etc, so the main issue with the Jane's Addiction video was nudity - although I read that things were more strict on American MTV and the censored video was aired only on theme/genre shows late at night.

 

Thanks for getting the quote for me! I agree with your assessment regarding Nivens ego. It seems like Niven was advised by a music video director that the video was too outside and taboo. And then in retrospect wants to say that his leadership saved Axl some grief during the dv fall out.

I tried to look up the bit about the punch scene for what its worth, but with the video release in the news it was gonna take some time to dig back in time through all the new reports.  Plus the word "punch" in a GNR google search also has very many hits - three separate accounts for Vince Neil alone. But Im gonna conclude that if I am recalling correctly to begin with that whoever said it wasn't qualified to speak to it.

I doubt it will get any backlash now for being taboo. Plus videos dont tend to be given much weight currently anyways. On the other hand This Is America is big news currently. 

[colonizedmind]

It's a great fuckin video, 'nough said. 

[colonizedmind]

Apparently they filmed in Cathouse the night before the gig we know about....
Any info by those in attendance that they saw a full gig on the 10th too?
https://www.setlist.fm/setlist/guns-n-roses/1989/the-cathouse-hollywood-ca-5bdcd3e4.html

[DieselDaisy]

1 hour ago, Setzer said:

YouTube compression. It won't be like that on the Blu-ray (and it probably won't be a 4K Blu-ray either though).

They finally gave up? What are you talking about? You have no idea how this stuff works. It was always in the plans to upload it on their channel too. We also recently got HD uploads of other videos on the channel.

Oh it was on their own channel? Shows the interest I show.

[Edward Nygma]

Just wondering if 'You Could Be Mine' will be uploaded to Guns vevo on YouTube?

[North Korean Democracy]

Axl punched David Bowie in the shooting of this video?

[Blackstar]

47 minutes ago, tremolo said:

Which Mountain Somg video? The only one I can remember is a very shitty one of the guys playing on a mountain.

The yotube link in my post (I edited it now so that the video shows). I haven't seen a video of that song with them playing on a mountain. I remember a video for another song, Classic Girl, with a wedding in the countryside or something.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Blackstar

[killuridols]

4 hours ago, soon said:

So, is Niven's decision to say that at the time a female sub in a BDSM scene would be viewed as a non-consensual act of violence against women rather then fantasy and play?

Who knows how it would be viewed? but I feel that a guy accussed of DV, showing himself slapping his own wife (even if it was an "acting"), it would resonate in people's mind.

It's easy to associate what he did in real life with the acting and the lyrics of the song.

Niven might have been paranoid about Axl getting arrested at any time. Not that he didn't have reasons to be, though.

[soon]

3 hours ago, killuridols said:

Who knows how it would be viewed? but I feel that a guy accussed of DV, showing himself slapping his own wife (even if it was an "acting"), it would resonate in people's mind.

It's easy to associate what he did in real life with the acting and the lyrics of the song.

Niven might have been paranoid about Axl getting arrested at any time. Not that he didn't have reasons to be, though.

Sure, that all seems plausible. I was just trying to figure out if this BDSM was the reason it was not released and then it was brought up that Niven mentioned it in relation to the dv charges/lawsuit.  Charges were still a couple years of iirc, but Im sure Niven was preparing for their eventuality, sadly.

Theres a couple posts in thread speaking in a negative and dismissive way about how 'this generation cant handle the video' type bashing but I found that ironic since it was withheld from earlier generations and deemed acceptable for release now. Theres lots of room for discussion about generational sensibilities, but these were just undermining statements. Im always into dissecting every little detail of Guns and in this case thats what got my curiosity going.

Axl slaps her in this video? I don't see that. 

Edited May 28, 2018 by soon

[killuridols]

48 minutes ago, soon said:

Sure, that all seems plausible. I was just trying to figure out if this BDSM was the reason it was not released and then it was brought up that Niven mentioned it in relation to the dv charges/lawsuit.  Charges were still a couple years of iirc, but Im sure Niven was preparing for their eventuality, sadly.

Theres a couple posts in thread about how 'this generation cant handle the video' type bashing but I found that ironic since it was withheld from earlier generations and deemed acceptable for release now. Im always into dissecting every little detail of Guns and in this case thats what got my curiosity going.

Axl slaps her in this video? I don't see that. 

I don't remember the exact quotes or what was said back then, as I read all of this decades ago but I do remember that the rumour was this video could incriminate Axl as an evidence of his DV. I understand the connection is not so clear, but maybe we are just talking of Niven's fears, which I don't consider unfounded, he knew of what was going on between Axl and Erin, everybody knew it and it didn't start in 1989. It started way back.

There's a DV report that she auctioned, from July 1988. In the People's Magazine article, it is mentioned that some Erin's friend called the police and reported Axl, so, I'm sure there must be more than one report piled up somewhere. It will come out sooner or later.

As for the video, my honest opinion is that this one they just released it is not the 'original' censored edition. I find it pretty "mild", this 2018 one, and I remember the other had more bondage scenes. I am suspicious that it was edited again and someone made sure it was not so shocking for the current audiences.

Yes, he does slaps her with a stick. It lasts one second > check on 1:48, pause it.
Most Erin scenes are very very quick, lasting one second or less, I think there's a pattern there.

Edited May 28, 2018 by killuridols

[soon]

23 minutes ago, killuridols said:

I don't remember the exact quotes or what was said back then, as I read all of this decades ago but I do remember that the rumour was this video could incriminate Axl as an evidence of his DV. I understand the connection is not so clear, but maybe we are just talking of Niven's fears, which I don't consider unfounded, he knew of what was going on between Axl and Erin, everybody knew it and it didn't start in 1989. It started way back.

There's a DV report that she auctioned, from July 1988. In the People's Magazine article, it is mentioned that some Erin's friend called the police and reported Axl, so, I'm sure there must be more than one report piled up somewhere. It will come out sooner or later.

As for the video, my honest opinion is that this one they just released it is not the 'original' censored edition. I find it pretty "mild", this 2018 one, and I remember the other had more bondage scenes. I am suspicious that it was edited again and someone made sure it was not so shocking for the current audiences.

Yes, he does slaps her with a stick. It lasts one second > check on 1:48, pause it.
Most Erin scenes are very very quick, lasting one second or less, I think there's a pattern there.

Thanks for clarifying that there were dv reports on record already by then. Im sure Niven knew. Too bad everyone in the know was most concerned with covering it up rather then being responsible and compassionate people. Im still unclear on how/why BDSM and DV would be conflated, but it seems that your opinion is that perhaps some audiences wouldnt understand a difference?

Very intriguing take that this may not be the original video, or at least not the original final cut. Given SOYL's mysterious aspects this isn't too shocking as a possibility! But I disagree that BDSM would be shocking to todays audience.

Oh, I see about the slap.  I think its a language/common word choice thing: I would say he flogged her on the butt at 1:48.  A "slap" to me would be on the face unless further defined.  And i would say a "spank" on the rear end. Yeah, I did see that part, thanks. I asked because I swear Ive read about Axl striking her in face, or the imagery alluding to that, in the video

Im still confused about it because that Niven quote where he claims that Nigel Dick warned him about the video seemed to be a warning about the taboo nature of kink. And then theres the DV. And the DV connection to BDSM seems tenuous imo, but then again it was a different time.

[troccoli]

On 5/24/2018 at 6:46 AM, TheSeeker said:

wasn't there an official Live Era version of the It's So Easy video, or did I imagine that?

You did not imagine that!

On 5/24/2018 at 7:06 AM, killuridols said:

Yes, there is (or was). Not sure if it's uploaded to VeVo though.

Not on VeVo sadly.

On 5/24/2018 at 7:47 AM, Tom-Ass said:

That's what I thought too.. Bizarre

You're not wrong!

On 5/24/2018 at 8:01 AM, Italian girl said:

I remember it

On 5/24/2018 at 8:43 AM, quikspade said:

I didn’t think there was any official live era home video releases.

Not home video per se.  Just promo VHS to MTV and other outlets.  Though some fans in Spain got this when they bought Live Era:

http://www.troccolitm.com/VHSLiveEraSpain.html

On 5/24/2018 at 9:18 AM, killuridols said:

They released two videos to promote Live Era. WTTJ similar to original video but with footage from the late 90s and the ISE live video, with inserts of Robert John's photos.

I'll post them in some minutes when I find them.

Indeed there was a promo VHS tape (no idea why, a DVD would have made more sense).  Here it is:

http://www.troccolitm.com/vhsliverapro.html?1185673881734

Plus there is another one:

http://www.troccolitm.com/VidISEPro.html

Sadly YouTube will not let me post the video!

Edited May 28, 2018 by troccoli

[troccoli]

http://youtubedoubler.com/?video1=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DFMbl1ntpIXQ&start1=32&video2=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dkp3lQY_yCHo&start2=3&authorName=why+we+slap

Compare the vids side by side.  When you start just mute the vid on the right side.  Enjoy!

[killuridols]

1 hour ago, soon said:

Thanks for clarifying that there were dv reports on record already by then. Im sure Niven knew. Too bad everyone in the know was most concerned with covering it up rather then being responsible and compassionate people. Im still unclear on how/why BDSM and DV would be conflated, but it seems that your opinion is that perhaps some audiences wouldnt understand a difference?

The violence started as soon as they got together. By reading Axl's letters to her and the things he did to her after they got divorced (what Erin told to the mag), it looks to me that Axl was extremely jealous of her, to the point of being sick. I don't know if you are familiar with the Tom Zutaut stories about why Axl and him had not spoken in a long time after all Zutaut did for the band. It is related to Erin
Here's the link in case you want to check up, it's sort of a long story to post here: https://www.loudersound.com/features/guns-n-roses-the-making-of-chinese-democracy

Slash also mentioned the couple's problems in his book and Meegan (Slash gf now and then), who was Erin's best friend, testified in Erin's favor. When I say everybody knew, I really mean the whole band and the camp.

The bolded: I do not have it clear either but two things.... 1) I think it was mostly Niven's fears taking over any other rational explanation for this. He knew what was going on, he knew that Axl was dangerous and the relationship with Erin was going to end bad, sooner or later. Also, 1989, the year of OIAM and its own controversy. Did they need more awful things to have the band associated with? 2) I think BDSM was still seen as something that only "degenerates" engage with. The depiction of love in movies, videos, entertainment generally was not of people hitting each other or tying each other, acting like slaves. I don't know... if you check up on the romantic comedies and romantic movies of the time, you will see everything was more family oriented. BDSM was not something "normal" people would do. Like I said before, it is pretty easy (when you don't know much about these things) to lump DV, rape, BDSM, homosexuality and all things unknown into one box of "what is wrong" and "good people" don't do.

1 hour ago, soon said:

But I disagree that BDSM would be shocking to todays audience.

I didn't say it would be.... In my opinion, all of this is more related to the personal problem between Axl and Erin, their history as a couple is bad. Regardless of what it seems that nowadays they are cool with each other (don't know to which extent), I think it is not convenient for Axl to revolve so much in the past.

We have the new feminism fiercely fighting against violent and abusive guys. Honestly, I have no clue how come the #metoo movement has still not knocked on GN'R doors... In my opinion, they have edited this video to suit a situation where Erin does not look like a "battered beauty" and Axl does not look like a wife beater.

1 hour ago, soon said:

Oh, I see about the slap.  I think its a language/common word choice thing: I would say he flogged her on the butt at 1:48.  A "slap" to me would be on the face unless further defined.  And i would say a "spank" on the rear end. Yeah, I did see that part, thanks. I asked because I swear Ive read about Axl striking her in face, or the imagery alluding to that, in the video

Lol, Im sorry about that. English is not my native language, I didn't know that a slap is only on the face .... I guess I meant a hit on the butt, yeah..... No, I have not seen him striking her in the face. The other thing he does is turn her around and grabs her by the bottoms. Also ties her hands up.

The other video that circulates over YouTube (the one we thought was the unreleased one) has other different scenes of bondage but I have not checked them in detail. Maybe it is on that one he slaps her on the face?

1 hour ago, soon said:

Im still confused about it because that Niven quote where he claims that Nigel Dick warned him about the video seemed to be a warning about the taboo nature of kink. And then theres the DV. And the DV connection to BDSM seems tenuous imo, but then again it was a different time.

Haha, I don't know why it is still unclear for you

Think of a guy who regularly beats up his girlfriend and all of his friends, associates, bandmates, etc. know it. Not only that, he's got reported to police several times for doing so. And then he goes wanting to shoot a video where he's got this woman (who happens to be his real gf, the one he abuses in real life) all "pretty tied up, hangin' upside down" , with a ball in her mouth, ribbon on her eyes, and he is beside her, with a stick, spanking her........ what else do you need to make the connection?

Check up @tremolo's comment above, maybe you understand him better than me, lol...

 

Edited May 28, 2018 by killuridols

[colonizedmind]

https://imgur.com/a/yRGDJum
Took a few freeze frames, hehe (no bother tho) 

Edited May 28, 2018 by colonizedmind

[killuridols]

7 minutes ago, colonizedmind said:

https://imgur.com/a/yRGDJum
Took a few freeze frames, hehe (no bother tho) 

damn, it doesn't look temporary tattoo

 

[colonizedmind]

3 minutes ago, killuridols said:

damn, it doesn't look temporary tattoo

 

think she had it erased? lol 

[Scream of the Butterfly]

If you read the interview Erin did with People magazine, it doesn't seem farfetched to question whether anything that happened in that relationship was truly consensual. If she was as scared of Axl as she says she was, then clearly it must have been very difficult/impossible for her to refuse when he ordered her to do BDSM. I would be hesitant to declare that this has nothing to do with domestic violence. 

Erin: I was afraid when he came in, when he left, when he wasn’t there....My fear was bigger than you can imagine.

[soon]

4 minutes ago, Scream of the Butterfly said:

If you read the interview Erin did with People magazine, it doesn't seem farfetched to question whether anything that happened in that relationship was truly consensual. If she was as scared of Axl as she says she was, then clearly it must have been very difficult/impossible for her to refuse when he ordered her to do BDSM. I would be hesitant to declare that this has nothing to do with domestic violence. 

Erin: I was afraid when he came in, when he left, when he wasn’t there....My fear was bigger than you can imagine.

Thanks for this. Ive never read that. I will.

If thats the case (which Im not doubting) then I think you make a good point.

Im still wondering about the public perception primarily.

[colonizedmind]

It's So Easy is the first ever GNR video to be released in 4K, right?
Loving that they're finally catching up with the past future, in the present, if you get me

[killuridols]

12 minutes ago, colonizedmind said:

think she had it erased? lol 

I'd love to know!